December 20, 2012 12:09 am at 12:09 am #914540
I still don’t get why you think it doesn’t say it in the Torah.
I have no idea how you dress, my reaction wasn’t to you as a person but rather to a (still) puzzling statement of yours. Is it fair to assume that I meant a personal attack because of some other negative experience which you encountered?December 20, 2012 1:16 am at 1:16 am #914541
i tried posting a simialr idea earlier but for some reason it got blocked by the mods. But you said it way betterDecember 20, 2012 1:27 am at 1:27 am #914542
Uneeq: thanx for explaining. Point taken.December 20, 2012 1:46 am at 1:46 am #914544
Talmud Torah k’neged kulam does not mean if you learn Torah, you don’t have to do the other mitzvos. It means that if one learns Torah, he gets credit EVEN for mitzvos that he otherwise would be unable to fulfill because they are not incumbent specifically on him, or they must be fulfilled in E”Y and he lives in Galus, or it requires the Beis Hamikdash, or is done by a Kohein, etc. No single Jew could EVER otherwise be mekayeim Taryag mitzvos. But by learning Torah, he is mekayeim those mitzvos, too, along with the ones he actually is able to fulfill. If all he does is learn and not actually DO any mitzvos, then his learning is meaningless for him.December 20, 2012 2:03 am at 2:03 am #914545
I tried posting a similar idea earlier but for some reason it got blocked by the mods.
Therein lies the double standard!December 20, 2012 2:31 am at 2:31 am #914546
halevi- not a double standard. i agree that all jews are the same no matter what and all this machlokes over chumras and minhagim are tearing us apart. It seems were all missing something because Jews should be able to stick together and we seem incapable of doing that lately.December 20, 2012 2:56 am at 2:56 am #914547
FAR EAST-It is obvious that every kind of crazy un -Jewish and anti-Jewish idea is given a free run in the CR. Have you closed your eyes?December 20, 2012 3:06 am at 3:06 am #914548
CAD -“simply because I pointed out to you that it doesn’t actually SAY that talmud torah k’neged kulam. And furthermore, there would never be anyone who would believe that to the point that they would actually put that into practice. Want a cheeseburger? Go ahead!! I did morning seder today and after all, talmud torah k’neged kulam right? Do you really believe that statement? Would you put it into practice? No. You wouldn’t. Because the thrust of the statement is to enforce the importance of talmud torah, and that learning serves as the base of all observance. No rav in the world (past or future) would ever take that statement literally. If they did it would spell the end of torah observance as we know it.”
It does say Talmud Torah Keneged Kulam. The reason I referred you to the S’A was for you to learn up what this means, not for you to interpret it or others like OOmis.
What the S’A says is that this doesn’t excuse s/o from Not doing Aveiros, but when it comes to Mitzvos Aseh -if there are others to do it then you should learn Torah instead. For example, there are people who spend all day or some of the day visiting the sick, but you don’t see Kollel guys going everyday to visit the sick. Same with Tzedaka, many people spend their day collecting Tzedaka, but you don’t see Kollel guys spending all their time collecting. So why not? The S’A says it’s better to spend your time learning then all these Mitzvos, as long as there is/are s/o else to do them and the Mitzva isn’t Not done.December 20, 2012 3:06 am at 3:06 am #914549
Ctrl Alt DelParticipant
DY, please. If it was only me that thought that I would agree that I was reading too much into it. However, I was not the only one to pick up on the visceral reaction that you seemed to have to my query. And I’m not upset at you or anyone else. I was just pointing out that your reaction is typical these days. And its not such a puzzling statement at all. the Torah itself does not consider the learning of a mitzvah to be the actual doing of it. I cannot be mekayem lulav v’esrog by learning about it. Even in depth. I could not make a brochoh on them and then learn the appropriate mishnaoyos. If you don’t pick up the lulav and esrog, you didn’t do the mitzvah. Now you could say that if you were unable to get a set and you felt really bad and took up the learning you could get some s’char for the effort, but the schar is for the learning (that can “equate” to the mitzvah, but its certainly not the mitzvah. Look, we are getting off topic. I think FarEast is right. We are having a problem in orthodoxy. We are letting differences in Halachah drive a wedge between us in real practical life. We are turning minhag (which of course has its place) into halachah, and eschewing those that dont follow the ones that we do. Some of you read WolfishMusings posts and don’t seem to get that his self denigrating posts are tongue-in-cheek commentary on this exact situation. he is of course a perfectly fine Jew. I would hazard to say that he may even be approaching a really really fine Jew, yet there are those that would criticize him (for real) as he does to himself. We drive wedge after wedge after wedge between us. There is a difference in machlokes in learning which leads to better understanding and machlokes in in practice, which leads to divisiveness and destruction. Do a little historical research on Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel and their often public arguments that actually led to the killing of students from Beis Hillel. We are on a dangerous path when real halachic discourse translates to splintering of our people.December 20, 2012 3:09 am at 3:09 am #914550
The COfee Room is really a unique place in that it actually allows a no holds barred conversation that actually lead to people learning things they did’nt no before and relearning things they think they knew.
Talmud Torah K’neged Kulam does not refer to the fact that through Talmud Torah one can be mekayim the entire Torah.
The above statement is true but not what the aforementioned Mishna is referring to.
The mishna is stating a simple fact that the LEarning of Torah is equal (Kneged” “all of them” all Mitzvos.
The Vilna Gaon actually says an interesting thought based on that.
The Gaon states that each word of Torah is equal to all 613 mitzvos.
On Shabbos the Gaon writes each mitzva one does earns schar times 613 hence each word of Torah that one learns is 613 times 613.
Pretty interesting, No?
As for those that stae Modern Orthodoxy emphasis “Torah U’madda?
What exactly is Torah U’Madda stating that secular knowledge is equal to Torah?
Hate to break it to you.
But Yes that is Kefira in the eyes of Torah Jewry which believe in the Torah of Hafuch Buh V’Hafuch Buh Dkuloh Bu. (Toil in it (Torah again and again for all is there).
And please do not qoute “Chochmah Bgoyim Tamin” becuase all that says is that the Goyim do have chochmah not that that Chochmah is not found in Torah.
And please do not start stating that RSRH believed in Torah U”mada what RSRH taught and wrote about was Torah im Derech Eretz.
For a clear explanation on the vast differences between the two complete with a myriad of clear and outright demonstrations of the aforementioned differences, please see Rabbi Joseph Eliase’s brilliant and comprehensive commentary on The Nineteen Letters.
And look Torah Judaisim has not changed their Hashkofas a bit, as evidenced by the fact that on this whole thread specific examples have been given of MO “changing” (thats being charitable) of Torah Law while not one single example can be given of Torah Judaisim changing Torah Law ch’v.
And yes if you hold beliefs and have a sense of priorites that are not in line with the millenia old tradition of Torah Judaisim.
Beliefs that go against Hlacha then Torah Jews will state that is Kefira.December 20, 2012 3:33 am at 3:33 am #914551
Oomis, I don’t think anyone tried to say that talmud Torah k’neged kulom refers to an exemption from other mitzvos. Ben Levi understood it to refer to the primacy of talmud Torah, and leveled an (somewhat overreaching) attack against MO for rejecting the concept. CAD then misread his statement to allow eating cheeseburgers (and I misread his wording to be kefirah).
Let’s chill out folks. There’s a lot more fighting between MO and charedi here in the CR than there is in real life.
For example, I frequent a beis medrash where one can find people wearing shtreimlach, knitted kippot, black velvet yarmulkas and fedoras, leather yarmulkas, and baseball caps (although not all on the same day – the shtreimlach are on Shabbos and the caps during the week), all davening and learning together. The people respect each other for their strengths, despite having different garb, outlooks, and occupations.
A chat room is merely a forum for ideas, but we don’t see each others’ chesed, we don’t know know how much time and effort the others put into learning and davening, etc. So naturally, we’ll see more disagreement than appreciation. But in real life, at least in my experience, things are not nearly so “black and white”.December 20, 2012 4:48 am at 4:48 am #914552
ready now- Yup their paying me to stir up conversation how did u find out?
Ben Levi- Torah Umaddah does NOT mean that they are equal. There is a reason torah comes first. It’s saying that they ALSO find value in the secular world. Now im gonna go on a limb here and assume you disagree with that philosiphy and belive its kefirah, but at least get your facts rightDecember 20, 2012 7:02 am at 7:02 am #914555
Far East, that was only a joke — referring to the fact that although you said the same thing they didn’t let it through.December 20, 2012 7:13 am at 7:13 am #914556
Have you ever studied what Torah U’Mada is?
Have you ever tried to actually gpo out and read up on why a new term had to be invented when there was aperfectly good term out there called Torah im Derech Eretz?
Please Dr. Norman Lamm’s “shittos are in the books he wrote.
Go read them.
They are”nt what you want them to be.December 20, 2012 7:30 am at 7:30 am #914557
Sorry clicked twice.December 20, 2012 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #914561
Please allow me to correctly complete your incorrect sentence………
The internet and CR are an addiction, which is a form of idolatry.
I am formally asking for a rav to specifically ban the YWN and CR as being included in the ban against the internet.
MODERATORS NOTE: The CR is an addiction, and idolatry …and you want it banned. Fair enough, you account has now been suspended. We don’t want want you to be ovev avodah zara here!December 21, 2012 6:10 am at 6:10 am #914562
(Good riddance)December 21, 2012 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #914563
Phew, I didn’t know the mods really read each post, I better start watching what i post!December 21, 2012 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #914564
Some Common SenseParticipant
Can we raise the level of the discussion please?
As Torah believing Jews, the standard is the Torah and the Jewish Law; this is codified for us in the Shulan Aruch. When anyone places themselves and what they want above that, it is wrong; it does not matter if you are MO or Yeshivish. Rabbi Frand once stated that this is today’s idol worship.December 21, 2012 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #914565
Dont let the door hit your behind on the way out
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