Double Standard in the Coffee Room

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  • #607392

    far east
    Member

    Im wondering why there seems to be such a double standard in the coffee room. Let me explain. It seems that only certain charedi and very right wing hashkafahs are respected by the moderators and other forms of orthodox judiasm are not given the same respect. I dont want this post to turn into another fight about which form of worshipping god is the right one, I just want a simple answer as to why the moderators seem to have such a double standard. It actually blows my mind how anyone can live a truly religious and spiritual life while believing that jews from other communities are living their lives wrong. Just becuase you may interpret halachah differently, does not make you the all knowing source of Jewish law. i I understand the website is YESHIVA world news, but how about a little more tolerance and respect for some of the other religious sects. And again, please dont turn this into another yeshivish vs. chasidish vs. Modern Orhtodox fight im looking for intellectual answers only.

  • #914488

    Whiteberry
    Member

    Pass the tissues.

  • #914489

    cantgetit
    Member

    Because the other “opinions” are wrong. It isn’t like both sides are right, different minhagim, different approach, etc. We honestly believe the other practices are objectively wrong and an incorrect and invalid approach to yiddishkeit.

  • #914490

    far east
    Member

    cantgetit- I understand that, but i mean there were 12 seperate shevatim. There is no one way to follow Judiasm. Different personalaties connect to hashem through different ways. Were not a cult where everyone needs to act the same way and interpret the law the same way. Wats wrong with saying “i belive my approach to yiddishkeit is correct, but some other ways are also productive and benefecial”. Everyone believing their way is the only way has led to so much sinas chinam between Jews.

  • #914491

    chalilavchas
    Member

    We honestly believe the other practices are objectively wrong and an incorrect and invalid approach to yiddishkeit.

    Invalidated by whom? Hashem? Your Rebbe? Your Rov? Someone who thinks that the yardstick for frumkeit is heavier stockings, certain shape of black hats, length of time you were supported and learned in Kollel, how many blatt Gemara you can regurgitate, etc ?

    Or Ahavas Yisroel, always aiming to encourage Kiddush Hashem, and discourage Chilul Hashem?

    Judging from the hundreds of posts I read this week, I think the Mods and the majority of posters here, are quite open-minded and “get it” very well and are very even handed and prioritize Ahavas Yisroel, always aiming to encourage Kiddush Hashem, and discourage Chilul Hashem, without favoring any one approach, within reason.

  • #914492

    YW Moderator-007
    Moderator

    Sometimes there is one person using 12 different screenames to provoke response.

    Let’s take for example…Joseph.

    That would be a great example.

  • #914493

    Ðash®
    Participant

    Where is the double standard? While it is inevitable that certain opinions will be quashed in a moderated forum that doesn’t mean that there is a double standard.

  • #914494

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    far east,

    I’m sure you agree there are wrong ways to practice Judaism. And we certainly agree there are ways other than our own to practice Judaism. We only disagree on which are which.

    So’s I’m not sure what you are trying to argue without reference to specific customs.

  • #914495

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    What’s double about the standard?

    They let through any intelligent, respectful, non-bashing comment. I don’t know what they do with pure Divrei Kefira. It seems like there’s individual judgement on that. There are so many sites that enjoy frum-bashing. We aren’t interested in seeing that rubbish. We found one site whose stated goal is to be a safe haven for us like-minded individuals, who don’t want that stuff. Does this one site really get in your way?

  • #914496

    kkls45
    Member

    Like letting threads about Facebook but not Instagram

  • #914497

    longarekel
    Member

    I found this site to be quite open-minded and tolerant within reason. Thank you mods for doing a great job! (No,I am not a mod. I’m too discriminating.)

  • #914498

    Ðash®
    Participant

    Like letting threads about Facebook but not Instagram

    That’s because there is no moderation standard and every mod does as he (or she) pleases.

  • #914499

    cantgetit
    Member

    far east: The answer to your question to me is essentially what popa replied. We agree (for example) that the “conservatives” are not a valid approach to yiddishkeit. You feel that the approaches you are referring to are acceptable. We don’t.

  • #914500

    oomis
    Member

    I think that the reason would be that this is the YESHIVAH WORLD coffee room, not the Modern Orthodox Machmir or Mekeil CR. I agree with you that it often appears that one side is being given bigger latitude to expressing itself, than another. But this IS a site that comes with a certain hashkafa and agenda as it were, and whether or not we might all agree hashkafically, we have to recognize the source behind the site. If you want to post on a less restrictive blog, you will have to find a non-moderated group.

    I am not Yeshivish, and I have often felt that certain opinions expressed strongly here, were not in line with my own religious hashkafa (i.e., I don’t see denim skirts per se as untzniusdig). But I also recognize that on a Yeshivish site, perhaps others might feel differently, and I respect our differences.

  • #914501

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I suggest a subtitle to you, Oomis: “The Voice of Reason”.

    While I’m (obviously) more to the Yeshivish/Chasidish, I enjoy your thoughts / opinions immensely. Always in a considerate, refined, respectful manner, never flying off the handle. It’s so interesting, insightful to see how you respond to delicate issues.

    With many more considerate, understanding people like you, the world would stand a better chance.

  • #914502

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I wonder why there are some people who feel that they can define Torah Judaisim as somethong other then what the Torah defines itself as and yet still be surprised when others make clear that their “feelings” are contrary to Torah.

    For example.

    The Torah states quite clearly “V’Talmud Torah K”Neged Kulam”.

    Talmud Torah (learning Torah) is equal to all other Mitzvos.

    Yet some people feel that they can disparage Torah and indicate there are other mitzvos greater then Torah Learning and still should be thought of as Torah Jews.

  • #914503

    far east
    Member

    Im not god forbid looking for a frum bashing website. And Popa i was under the assumption that we all agree on frum vs. non frum. At least the majority opinion is that chasidish litvish and MO are all religious Jews. Conservative and reform not religious jews.

    Its not fair to bash other websites that trash frum Jews when ive seen plenty of frum bashing on this site. I mean the MODs would never let a post through bashing a Gadol of the litvish world, but of the MO world they would. Im not advocaing we should allow more yeshivish bashing, i would just prefer less MO bashing.

    Oomis- Your right about that. Maybe im looking in the wrong places

  • #914504

    Josh31
    Member

    There is a more rationalistic understanding of “V’Talmud Torah K”Neged Kulam”.

    It means that without knowing the Torah one cannot fulfill it.

    It does not mean that one can exempt himself from all his normal obligations by studying Torah.

    Those who learn in Kollel only do so while their wives are Mochel the Kesubah obligation that the husband has to support his wife.

  • #914505

    Because the other “opinions” are wrong. It isn’t like both sides are right, different minhagim, different approach, etc. We honestly believe the other practices are objectively wrong and an incorrect and invalid approach to yiddishkeit.

    And that is true for the “right wing” as well, such as those sects who support abusers.

  • #914506

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Member

    “The Torah states quite clearly “V’Talmud Torah K”Neged Kulam”.

    Talmud Torah (learning Torah) is equal to all other Mitzvos.

    Ben Levi,

    Please tell me where it says this in the Torah.

  • #914507

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Interesting, Ben Levi. I recall learning this obscure passage in Gemoro Shabbes where Hillel Hazoken answers the mechutzaf about learning the whole Torah while standing on one foot. “What is hateful to you, don’t do to your neighbor”, explaining Veohavto Loreacho Komocho. As Hillel said, all the rest is commentary.

    So to me, and to (I hope) most thinking frum Jews, if there is any mitzvah that outranks the others, it is to be an Oheiv Yisroel before you are a Yoishev Beis Medresh.

  • #914508

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    To my observation, it seems the reverse is true. At least to me it seems that the Yeshivish Olam is always being attacked. (Could be wrong)

    However I’m so against to mud slinging and bashing. How I wish it would stop.

  • #914509

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    far east,

    I used to post here far more often. I stopped, in part because of what you are talking about.

    Also, because the posters here claiming to be Yeshivish are giving actually Yeshivish people IRL a bad name.

  • #914510

    To my observation, it seems the reverse is true. At least to me it seems that the Yeshivish Olam is always being attacked. (Could be wrong)

    However I’m so against to mud slinging and bashing. How I wish it would stop.

    Also, because the posters here claiming to be Yeshivish are giving actually Yeshivish people IRL a bad name.

    These have to be read together. The “Normal” Yeshivish (such as our Gedolim, and people who are Ovdei Hashem) are not criticized. It is those who “overlook” Halacha who are, especially when someone tried to promote such anti-halacha activity.

  • #914511

    uneeq
    Member

    Like letting threads about Facebook but not Instagram

    If it wasn’t a troll post it would’ve been approved, Joseph.

  • #914512

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    As for where it states what I said.

    Meshes Peah.

    As for “knowing the Torah” to fullfill it.

    If you acknowledge that you must learn the Torah to know it then you acknowledge that without learning the Torah you do not know.

    Results?

    If someone who is not knowledgebale it Torah comes and states “these are Torah values” and another person who is knowledgable in Torah who actually sits and studies the Torah for much of the day, states that Torah values are not in line with what that person states it is logical to believe the Second person.

    As for the “statement” made by Hillel to the mechutzaf.

    Lets see.

    Facts are the Torah Shel Ba’al Peh and Torah Shebiksav are huge (Tanach, Shisha Sidrei Mishna, Shas, Midrashim ect…) so how do we understand Hillel’s statement?

    Is’nt Shammai’s statement more logical?

    Of course I am not the first to raise this question the meforshim on that statement raise this question and explain exactly what Hillel meant Loo it up.

    And thank you for providing a perfect example of why intensive Torah study with all commentaries is needed and one cannot really base their opinions on a few random unconnected statments that they heard here and there.

  • #914513

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I suspect there is a double standard in the coffee room. Otherwise you should see posts by Zdad about certain recent news story which you don’t see.

  • #914514

    kkls45
    Member

    Uneeq. What are you talking about???

  • #914515

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Member

    “As for where it states what I said.

    Meshes Peah”

    Thank you, So it is not in the Torah, correct? It was said “about” the Torah. My point is that While we don’t have to entertain every naarish idea that someone comes up with and “proves” from the Torah, we certainly cannot dismiss halachic opinions that stem from an actual effort to understand and interpret the torah by people who have studied it extensively. A rough example would be say…. sturgeon. There are actual rabbonim who hold its kosher. Not just b’dieved kosher but full fledged kosher. Now we have a majority that disagrees but does that “discredit” the dissenters? I would posit No. But recently there has been a movement in Orthodoxy to not just disagree with someone on the other side of the aisle but to actively discredit the other side. I dont see a need for that. Do you take for granted electricity is ossur on shabbos? Probably you do since contemporary poskim have paskened so. But around the time of its discovery, no one really understood what it was. And some rabbonim at the time may have had different explanations on the nature of electricty and some may have leaned to the ossur side and some to the muttar side (depending on what the electrons actually do) Now that we more fully understand the nature of electricity we have determined its ossur, but back then were those that were mattir it “wrong” at that time? Were they kofrim? I think we are on a dangerous road these days where dissenters are branded heretics and “goyim”. Note, Im not talking about folks who abandon torah or choose not to follow some laws.

  • #914517

    Toi
    Member

    “but i mean there were 12 seperate shevatim. There is no one way to follow Judiasm”

    what the heck does the amount of shvatim have to do with respecting and validating movements in judaism that roiv gedoilim of yesteryear held were kfira?

    Oh. Nothing.

  • #914518

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Ben Levi, you have no idea how much learning I have or haven’t done – or anyone else in the CR, for that matter. Who are you to say what anyone’s perspective is based on, other than your own? Your assumptions, and your gaaiva are frankly breathtaking.

    There’s a reason why Hillel is followed in all but a handful of disputes. Shammai’s perspectives, while logical, don’t often meet the standard of “V’chai bohem” and thus aren’t implementable.

    And Hillel gave a clear insight into VeOhavto, and its corrolary. without it, learning is without legs to stand on, just as without learning, ahavas yisroel is without arms to help our fellow Jew.

    You seek to justify an exclusivity of doctrine and “permission to have a Jewish point of view” so long as it matches your own world view.

    I know individual Jews who know more about several mitzvos through experience and doing than you or I could ever learn from sitting and learning. If it makes you feel better about yourself to consider your “elite” perspective the one true way, kol hakavod to you. Enjoy the view from the pinnacle of Judaism. THe rest of us will try to live in the real world.

  • #914519

    uneeq
    Member

    kkls: At first, I thought you to be a troll, based on the fact that your first posts were very troll-ish, especially the Instagram thread. You also got bent about the Instagram thread, claiming the CR mods to have a double standard when it is obvious why they don’t let your thread. Add in the fact that you’re a new user, and you fit the the classic John Troll persona.

    Now, I see that you were just ignorant of basic forum etiquette, and I will further judge you favorably.

    Ps. You may want to google a little bit about internet trolls. You’ll understand the reason why the CR is very nasty to them.

  • #914520

    far east
    Member

    toi- maybe you missed the message. Judiasm is not a religio of clones. There are different ways to serve god. Not everyone is supposed to be a rabbi. Just because somebody is not in your community, doesnt mean his form of practicing yiddishkiet is less pure. In the eys of god your both doing the right thing.

    And were you aware that the Rambams Mishnah Torah was burnt. The majority of jews at the time rejected him and called his writings kefirah. Now hes considered one of the greatest scholars in jewish history. The message is: Just because gedolim of yesteryear may have held something to be kefirah, times change and the gedolim nowdays may be more accepting of it. Take chasidus as an example. The GRA was fiercely opposed to chasidus. But one of his stidents (i forgot who) said that chasidus saved millions of jews from going off the derech.

  • #914521

    Shraga18
    Member

    Talk about double standards, I just went through the YU cover-up thread, which, sadly, was closed right as it was getting more and more fascinating.

    Although I am quite Yeshivish and tend to disagree with many of the more MO posters here on various issues, I always understood that they had a different view than mine and could respect that. Especially when it came to the subject of child abuse.

    It was therefore absolutely shocking to me how “pareve” some of the oh-so-vehement-anti-abuse posters were once the subject was YU.

    Hypocrisy at it’s absolute, and very disappointing, best.

  • #914522

    oomis
    Member

    Isn’t that in Pirkei Avos? Mt rov explained to me that this is the ONLY way in which a Yid can be mekayeim the whole Torah, because there are mitzvos that are specific to some individuals and not others (such as mitzvos incumbent on Kohanim, bechorim, women,people who live in E”Y but not in Galus, etc.). By learning Torah, however (Talmud Torah), one has fulfilled the equivalent of even those mitzvos that he could not necessarily otherwise be mekayeim.

  • #914523

    kkls45
    Member

    Uneeq: I googled internet trolls like you suggested, and now understand why this is horrible. I can see why you and some others might have thought that i was a troll, and will definately try not to post anything like that again.

    My question was a sincere question, because many of my friends had gotten instagram accounts and i wanted to know if it was really that bad if i got one to. However, since i was a new member and didnt really know the type, i didnt yet understand that most people on this forum would never go near it.

    What happened with ZK is terrible, but if it had to happen i am glad that this occured soon after i became a member. This has shown me that everyone must really be careful with what they post.

  • #914524

    uneeq
    Member

    kkls: My question was a sincere question, because many of my friends had gotten instagram accounts and i wanted to know if it was really that bad if i got one to.

    Your question can be asked in this forum. But it takes time to be able to figure out how to ask a question properly, not to sound like someone who wants to stir up controversy.

    When anyone asks- is “X” bad? – Where “X” is Facebook/internet/stalking or anything that could be controversial, it is assumed that the poster would like to get a argument started.

    If honestly you would like to hear the debate, because you are unsure if X is good or bad, be sincere and explain in the OP why you are in doubt and people will respond to your thread.

    Oh, and some advice as a former user of Instagram. Don’t use it.

  • #914525

    Although I am quite Yeshivish and tend to disagree with many of the more MO posters here on various issues, I always understood that they had a different view than mine and could respect that. Especially when it came to the subject of child abuse.

    It was therefore absolutely shocking to me how “pareve” some of the oh-so-vehement-anti-abuse posters were once the subject was YU.

    I agree with this. I would also expect a Chatholic Church type investigation into YU. I would not be shocked if R’ Norman Lamm will have to give up his pension and/or settle in a lawsuit.

    The difference between that & the other case is that YU will probably cooperate, while the other sect has acted like the Mafia by threatening, attempting to bribe & denounced the victim, so that no one else dares speak up.

  • #914526

    Health
    Participant

    Ctrl Alt Del -“The Torah states quite clearly “V’Talmud Torah K”Neged Kulam”.

    Talmud Torah (learning Torah) is equal to all other Mitzvos.

    Ben Levi,

    Please tell me where it says this in the Torah.”

    S’A -Y’D 246:18.

  • #914527

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Health,

    Unless I’m misunderstanding, C-A-D doesn’t consider Torah sheba’al peh part of Torah. If Mishnayos wasn’t good enough, why would S”A be better?

  • #914529

    ready now
    Participant

    There is only One Judaism – Orthodox Judaism.

    There is only one way to serve Hashem the G-D of Israel and that is by fulfilling His mitzvos and by not departing from them.

    What some people believe is not real.

    Encouraging people to be un-real is not good by Torah.

  • #914530

    Health
    Participant

    DY -“Unless I’m misunderstanding, C-A-D doesn’t consider Torah sheba’al peh part of Torah. If Mishnayos wasn’t good enough, why would S”A be better?”

    I was always under the impression that he was Orthodox.

  • #914531

    far east
    Member

    ready now- I have to respectfully disagree with you. Although we do ALL fall under orthodox judiasm, there are different sects of orthodox judiasm. To claim otherwise is niave and leads to fighting. Each sect emphasizes a different part of service to Hashem. The majority of Chasidus focuses on prayer, Satmar focuses on chesed, Lubavich focuses on outreach, Litvish focuses on torah, tzionis focus on love of eretz yisroel, MO focuses on Torah Umada, Yekkies focus on torah with derech eretz. All these sects play different roles in brining Gods light down to this world, and were all in this together as orthodox jews.

    And for the record, i was’nt C”V comparing the Rambam to reform or conservatism. I was comparing him to modern orthodoxy

  • #914533

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Health,

    Read this post:

    “”As for where it states what I said.

    Meshes Peah” (Ben Levi)

    Thank you, So it is not in the Torah, correct?” (CAD)

    and decide for yourself.

  • #914534

    ready now
    Participant
  • #914535

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    DY – I firmly believe you are smart enough to know what CAD meant when he wrote that. What you said in response was below the belt and untrue. An accusation like that out of context can be very harmful to both of you.

  • #914536

    This is The YESHIVA World. It should be geared to hashkafos that match the title of the site.

    If anything, I am surprised at how much leeway posters who consistently post borderline apikorsus and out-and-out malicious leytzanus are given here.

    One tzadik gomur even posted about boycotting stores that carry certain mehadrin products and he was not censored. If that is not tolerance, I don’t know what is.

  • #914537

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    Far east, the Rambam and his Mishna Torah were accepted by all, in his day. The M”T spread to far-away lands pretty quickly. They had issues with the Moreh and they still do.

  • #914538

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Syag, I would love for him to defend himself, and I definitely left open the possibility that he doesn’t mean what I think he means. What do you think that comment means? Do you think he’s nitpicking semantics? I would hope so, but it doesn’t look that way.

  • #914539

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Member

    Health, I am orthodox. Daas, thank you for proving my point. The first thing you thought of to do was to discredit me as a non-believer. (at least in torah sheBaal peh) simply because I pointed out to you that it doesn’t actually SAY that talmud torah k’neged kulam. And furthermore, there would never be anyone who would believe that to the point that they would actually put that into practice. Want a cheeseburger? Go ahead!! I did morning seder today and after all, talmud torah k’neged kulam right? Do you really believe that statement? Would you put it into practice? No. You wouldn’t. Because the thrust of the statement is to enforce the importance of talmud torah, and that learning serves as the base of all observance. No rav in the world (past or future) would ever take that statement literally. If they did it would spell the end of torah observance as we know it.

    Now that I have established what I meant we can move on to the larger point. In general , there is a trend toward the right in orthodox Judaism today. It is resulting in a lot of discord because instead of it being a machlokes in learning we have moved it out of the theoretical and made it a real machlokes. We have even taken minhag and elevated it to the status of halachah. (a different conversation altogether) And those we see not following what we deem to be the right way we immediately dismiss as kofrim, goyim, whatever (sound familiar Daas?) Ad hominem attacks like :

    “Unless I’m misunderstanding, C-A-D doesn’t consider Torah sheba’al peh part of Torah. If Mishnayos wasn’t good enough, why would S”A be better?” DaasYochid

    are part of the problem. Did you really think that?

    We need to step back from the brink. Sometimes at night before I go to bed I pick up some nach for some “light” reading and I am astounded at the repetition of history. I have often wondered if there is some navi out there, or some chronicler who is writing this stuff down, all the petulant arguments and all the divisiveness. We certainly havent learned our lesson from our own history. Maybe when our great great grandkids read our story they will get the message. Maybe. But I’m not holding my breath.

    As for the original post by FarEast, Yes, you are finding that the more out there opinions may be quashed. It is simply a function of the rightward trend in Orthodox observance. I am positive that the “taliban women” are convinced that they have the “true” observance of tznius. Do they? Are we kofrim in their eyes? would they let you post your opinions on tznius on their forum? (yeah, yeah, the internet is ossur. I know) Here is another example. Some younger kollel guys I know referred to me the one day (in my presence) as “Harry” (an apparent reference to my MO looks and therefore shaky observance right?) not knowing that I am aware of the meaning, and certainly not knowing of my years spent in beis medrash. The “inside” joke being that “ha ha he doesn’t know how superior we are to him because we are spending time in kollel and he goes to work every day”. I brushed it off as youthful indiscretion, but it really bothered me that they couldn’t accept that there actually may be other ways to be orthodox then their definition. And that they quite possibly really thought that I was some lesser Jew than them. And that is the crux of it. We are slowly fracturing into splinter groups that can no longer tolerate each other. What are we to do? What are we to do…..

  • #914540

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    CAD,

    I still don’t get why you think it doesn’t say it in the Torah.

    I have no idea how you dress, my reaction wasn’t to you as a person but rather to a (still) puzzling statement of yours. Is it fair to assume that I meant a personal attack because of some other negative experience which you encountered?

  • #914541

    far east
    Member

    CAD +1

    i tried posting a simialr idea earlier but for some reason it got blocked by the mods. But you said it way better

  • #914542

    kkls45
    Member

    Uneeq: thanx for explaining. Point taken.

  • #914544

    oomis
    Member

    Talmud Torah k’neged kulam does not mean if you learn Torah, you don’t have to do the other mitzvos. It means that if one learns Torah, he gets credit EVEN for mitzvos that he otherwise would be unable to fulfill because they are not incumbent specifically on him, or they must be fulfilled in E”Y and he lives in Galus, or it requires the Beis Hamikdash, or is done by a Kohein, etc. No single Jew could EVER otherwise be mekayeim Taryag mitzvos. But by learning Torah, he is mekayeim those mitzvos, too, along with the ones he actually is able to fulfill. If all he does is learn and not actually DO any mitzvos, then his learning is meaningless for him.

  • #914545

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    I tried posting a similar idea earlier but for some reason it got blocked by the mods.

    Therein lies the double standard!

  • #914546

    far east
    Member

    halevi- not a double standard. i agree that all jews are the same no matter what and all this machlokes over chumras and minhagim are tearing us apart. It seems were all missing something because Jews should be able to stick together and we seem incapable of doing that lately.

  • #914547

    ready now
    Participant

    FAR EAST-It is obvious that every kind of crazy un -Jewish and anti-Jewish idea is given a free run in the CR. Have you closed your eyes?

  • #914548

    Health
    Participant

    CAD -“simply because I pointed out to you that it doesn’t actually SAY that talmud torah k’neged kulam. And furthermore, there would never be anyone who would believe that to the point that they would actually put that into practice. Want a cheeseburger? Go ahead!! I did morning seder today and after all, talmud torah k’neged kulam right? Do you really believe that statement? Would you put it into practice? No. You wouldn’t. Because the thrust of the statement is to enforce the importance of talmud torah, and that learning serves as the base of all observance. No rav in the world (past or future) would ever take that statement literally. If they did it would spell the end of torah observance as we know it.”

    It does say Talmud Torah Keneged Kulam. The reason I referred you to the S’A was for you to learn up what this means, not for you to interpret it or others like OOmis.

    What the S’A says is that this doesn’t excuse s/o from Not doing Aveiros, but when it comes to Mitzvos Aseh -if there are others to do it then you should learn Torah instead. For example, there are people who spend all day or some of the day visiting the sick, but you don’t see Kollel guys going everyday to visit the sick. Same with Tzedaka, many people spend their day collecting Tzedaka, but you don’t see Kollel guys spending all their time collecting. So why not? The S’A says it’s better to spend your time learning then all these Mitzvos, as long as there is/are s/o else to do them and the Mitzva isn’t Not done.

  • #914549

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Member

    DY, please. If it was only me that thought that I would agree that I was reading too much into it. However, I was not the only one to pick up on the visceral reaction that you seemed to have to my query. And I’m not upset at you or anyone else. I was just pointing out that your reaction is typical these days. And its not such a puzzling statement at all. the Torah itself does not consider the learning of a mitzvah to be the actual doing of it. I cannot be mekayem lulav v’esrog by learning about it. Even in depth. I could not make a brochoh on them and then learn the appropriate mishnaoyos. If you don’t pick up the lulav and esrog, you didn’t do the mitzvah. Now you could say that if you were unable to get a set and you felt really bad and took up the learning you could get some s’char for the effort, but the schar is for the learning (that can “equate” to the mitzvah, but its certainly not the mitzvah. Look, we are getting off topic. I think FarEast is right. We are having a problem in orthodoxy. We are letting differences in Halachah drive a wedge between us in real practical life. We are turning minhag (which of course has its place) into halachah, and eschewing those that dont follow the ones that we do. Some of you read WolfishMusings posts and don’t seem to get that his self denigrating posts are tongue-in-cheek commentary on this exact situation. he is of course a perfectly fine Jew. I would hazard to say that he may even be approaching a really really fine Jew, yet there are those that would criticize him (for real) as he does to himself. We drive wedge after wedge after wedge between us. There is a difference in machlokes in learning which leads to better understanding and machlokes in in practice, which leads to divisiveness and destruction. Do a little historical research on Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel and their often public arguments that actually led to the killing of students from Beis Hillel. We are on a dangerous path when real halachic discourse translates to splintering of our people.

  • #914550

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    The COfee Room is really a unique place in that it actually allows a no holds barred conversation that actually lead to people learning things they did’nt no before and relearning things they think they knew.

    Talmud Torah K’neged Kulam does not refer to the fact that through Talmud Torah one can be mekayim the entire Torah.

    The above statement is true but not what the aforementioned Mishna is referring to.

    The mishna is stating a simple fact that the LEarning of Torah is equal (Kneged” “all of them” all Mitzvos.

    The Vilna Gaon actually says an interesting thought based on that.

    The Gaon states that each word of Torah is equal to all 613 mitzvos.

    On Shabbos the Gaon writes each mitzva one does earns schar times 613 hence each word of Torah that one learns is 613 times 613.

    Pretty interesting, No?

    As for those that stae Modern Orthodoxy emphasis “Torah U’madda?

    What exactly is Torah U’Madda stating that secular knowledge is equal to Torah?

    Hate to break it to you.

    But Yes that is Kefira in the eyes of Torah Jewry which believe in the Torah of Hafuch Buh V’Hafuch Buh Dkuloh Bu. (Toil in it (Torah again and again for all is there).

    And please do not qoute “Chochmah Bgoyim Tamin” becuase all that says is that the Goyim do have chochmah not that that Chochmah is not found in Torah.

    And please do not start stating that RSRH believed in Torah U”mada what RSRH taught and wrote about was Torah im Derech Eretz.

    For a clear explanation on the vast differences between the two complete with a myriad of clear and outright demonstrations of the aforementioned differences, please see Rabbi Joseph Eliase’s brilliant and comprehensive commentary on The Nineteen Letters.

    And look Torah Judaisim has not changed their Hashkofas a bit, as evidenced by the fact that on this whole thread specific examples have been given of MO “changing” (thats being charitable) of Torah Law while not one single example can be given of Torah Judaisim changing Torah Law ch’v.

    And yes if you hold beliefs and have a sense of priorites that are not in line with the millenia old tradition of Torah Judaisim.

    Beliefs that go against Hlacha then Torah Jews will state that is Kefira.

  • #914551

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Oomis, I don’t think anyone tried to say that talmud Torah k’neged kulom refers to an exemption from other mitzvos. Ben Levi understood it to refer to the primacy of talmud Torah, and leveled an (somewhat overreaching) attack against MO for rejecting the concept. CAD then misread his statement to allow eating cheeseburgers (and I misread his wording to be kefirah).

    Let’s chill out folks. There’s a lot more fighting between MO and charedi here in the CR than there is in real life.

    For example, I frequent a beis medrash where one can find people wearing shtreimlach, knitted kippot, black velvet yarmulkas and fedoras, leather yarmulkas, and baseball caps (although not all on the same day – the shtreimlach are on Shabbos and the caps during the week), all davening and learning together. The people respect each other for their strengths, despite having different garb, outlooks, and occupations.

    A chat room is merely a forum for ideas, but we don’t see each others’ chesed, we don’t know know how much time and effort the others put into learning and davening, etc. So naturally, we’ll see more disagreement than appreciation. But in real life, at least in my experience, things are not nearly so “black and white”.

  • #914552

    far east
    Member

    ready now- Yup their paying me to stir up conversation how did u find out?

    Ben Levi- Torah Umaddah does NOT mean that they are equal. There is a reason torah comes first. It’s saying that they ALSO find value in the secular world. Now im gonna go on a limb here and assume you disagree with that philosiphy and belive its kefirah, but at least get your facts right

  • #914555

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    Far East, that was only a joke — referring to the fact that although you said the same thing they didn’t let it through.

  • #914556

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Far east,

    Have you ever studied what Torah U’Mada is?

    Have you ever tried to actually gpo out and read up on why a new term had to be invented when there was aperfectly good term out there called Torah im Derech Eretz?

    Please Dr. Norman Lamm’s “shittos are in the books he wrote.

    Go read them.

    They are”nt what you want them to be.

  • #914557

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Sorry clicked twice.

  • #914561

    ready now
    Participant

    Please allow me to correctly complete your incorrect sentence………

    The internet and CR are an addiction, which is a form of idolatry.

    I am formally asking for a rav to specifically ban the YWN and CR as being included in the ban against the internet.

    MODERATORS NOTE: The CR is an addiction, and idolatry …and you want it banned. Fair enough, you account has now been suspended. We don’t want want you to be ovev avodah zara here!

  • #914562

    uneeq
    Member

    (Good riddance)

  • #914563

    2scents
    Participant

    Phew, I didn’t know the mods really read each post, I better start watching what i post!

  • #914564

    Can we raise the level of the discussion please?

    As Torah believing Jews, the standard is the Torah and the Jewish Law; this is codified for us in the Shulan Aruch. When anyone places themselves and what they want above that, it is wrong; it does not matter if you are MO or Yeshivish. Rabbi Frand once stated that this is today’s idol worship.

  • #914565

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Dont let the door hit your behind on the way out

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