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Dvar Torah from this weeks Parsha on Cham ben Noach
(57 posts)
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In this weeks parsha, the Torah (Bereishis 9:20-27) talks about the horrible act Cham committed against his father Noach. When Noach woke up and saw what transpired, he cursed Cham's children decreeing that they "will always be a slave to his brothers."
The Gemora, Sanhedrin 108b, states "Our Rabbis taught: Three copulated in the ark, and they were all punished — the dog, the raven, and Cham. The dog was doomed to be tied, the raven expectorates, and Cham was smitten in his skin." The Meforshim described this as a darkening of skin. A commentary to the text states that the "smitten" skin referred to the blackness of descendants, and a later comment by Chazal in the Bereishis Rabbah states that Cham himself emerged from the ark black-skinned. The Zohar states that Cham's son Canaan "darkened the faces of mankind".
We all know that every part of the Torah is as relevant today as it was when it was written. Please share your thoughts on this weeks parsha, on this, and how it is relevant today.
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Yasher Koach for starting a thread on the parsha!
Lets have more divrei kedusha, Dvar Torah's, in this forum (rather than some of the narishkeit that gets plastered here.)
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I hadn\'t even thought of the relevance until I saw this post. But one open example how it is relevant today, is just look at this years Presidential election. Parshas Noach is the last full week prior to the election. And clearly we can see how this applies when you look at the who the candidates are this year.
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I just heard this vort in Chumush shir yesterday...
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I'm fearful of where this will go and hope the moderator will be especially vigilant.
Let's use seichel, folks.
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No need to be ashamed of our holy Torah. Every word it says is 100% Emes, as politically incorrect as that may be. If the Torah itself refers to Cham's progeny as slaves, thats all they are.
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I was debating ignoring this and hoping it'll go away.
So how to view it in contemporary times. As far as I know, there was not an obligation to enslave the b'nei Cham, this was a historical reality. But re Doc, not only is there not a chiyuv but in the galus experience, we have been subjugated by so many leaders and countries not worthy of their positions. If you have a particular objection to such a leader here, so be it, but we have to accept what might be the reality just as readily as the alternative candidate. Race is irrelevant; I vote for the most qualified candidate, whose platform values are closer to mine.
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And re doc, no I'm not all ashamed of the holy Torah. But tell me, do you think it's personally or politically safe or expedient to smuggle yoursef into Mecca and open the Koran at random and inform the passersby of every single inconsistency you find? If you would survive, you would likely be considered a rodef.
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These types of divrei torah do nothing except give an ego boost to the sayer. There is no ethical imperative that comes from them, and no improvement of midos. They should therefore be left unsaid.
Furthermore, the bnei cham have a tzelem elokim and an ability to elevate themselves to the level of the kohen gadol, as the Rambam says.
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Unless you see a midos or "ethical imperative" in a shtikel Chumush, Gemorah, or Meforshim "they should therefore be left unsaid"?
Should we also remove them from future prints of the Torah, Gemorah, etc.?
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the vort is of course 100% Emes
nevertheless i feel very strongly that this thread should be immediately removed.
not everything that is Emes should be printed in the faces of millions of all sorts of people who could read it.
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just to clarify what i said:
this vort should be said, and discussed, and read and taught
i just dont think it should be posted on the open internet
if R' Elyashiv were to give an interview to the new york times and they asked him about this issue, what do you think he would say?
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Feivel, that is exactly my point. Kshem shemitzvah lomar davar hanishma, kach mitzva lo lomar davar sh'eino nishma.
Joseph, would you teach taharas hamishpacha to 4th graders? One needs to use judgment as to what to teach to whom.
Do you know how much anti-semitism has been caused by people supposedly quoting from the Torah. There are even hate-sites on the web devoted to that.
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I see merit in Feivel's point. My only thought is that if you search Google you will find all sorts of halachic reference to this inyan with its various sources (including whats quoted above.)
Perhaps they ALL should be removed. But barring that, is there a benefit to removing it here? Pobbibly there still is. (I think some of this is mentioned on Wikipedia among other sites.)
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Feivel, as to your latest post, when the Ramban was debating the priest, and the priest quoted from a certain medrash, the Ramban said that it was not to be taken literally. Look up Kisvei Haramban. Reb Elyashiv would probably do the same.
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No need to be ashamed of our holy Torah. Every word it says is 100% Emes, as politically incorrect as that may be. If the Torah itself refers to Cham's progeny as slaves, thats all they are.
No need to be ashamed of our holy Torah. Every word it says is 100% Emes, as politically incorrect as that may be. If the Torah itself says that women will bear children in pain, they shouldn't use epidurals.
No need to be ashamed of our holy Torah. Every word it says is 100% Emes, as politically incorrect as that may be. If the Torah itself says that you will live by the sweat of your brow, we should not use machines to do our work.
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KeenObserver, I hope you are being sarcastic.
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tell this to the cusim in Israel and watch the reaction
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Pashuteh Yid, from the examples he cites, it's clear that KeenObserver is not serious. Also, I think the first paragraph is a quote from another poster.
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Keen is using misguided sarcasm. His sarcastic comparison is meaningless. Cham's grandchildren's status is a metzius, not a sheetta.
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Zalman,
how on earth are labor pains and having to work a shita and not a metzius?
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This reminds me of a d'var torah I learned: if it is decreed that Bnai Yisroel should suffer (as we see throughout TaNaCH), why are those who persecute us punished? The answer that I learned is as follows: first of all, even if Jews are to suffer, it is not necessarily incumbent on any particular individual or nation to inflict this suffering; and even if the Jews are decreed to suffer at the hands of a particular nation, if any nation or individual causes a Jew to suffer more than he should, or enjoys inflicting that punishment, that individual/ nation will surely be punished in turn.
Perhaps this concept can be applied here: even if we think we know a particular person/ group is of the b'nai cham to whom the decree of enslavement applies, it is not necessarily
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I clicked enter too early before; here is my entire post:
This reminds me of a d'var torah I learned: if it is decreed that Bnai Yisroel should suffer (as we see throughout TaNaCH), why are those who persecute us punished? The answer that I learned is as follows: first of all, even if Jews are to suffer, it is not necessarily incumbent on any particular individual or nation to inflict this suffering; and even if the Jews are decreed to suffer at the hands of a particular nation, if any nation or individual causes a Jew to suffer more than he should, or enjoys inflicting that punishment, that individual/ nation will surely be punished in turn.
Perhaps this concept can be applied here: even if we think we know a particular person/ group is of the b'nai cham to whom the decree of enslavement applies (and I'm not sure how we'd know this to be true of any particular individual living in modern times), it's not necessarily our job to inflict this punishment. So even though this pasuk in TaNaCH was used by Christians in the 1700-1800's to justify buying, abusing, and enslaving Africans, this doesn't mean they were right. And of course, nowhere in the Torah does it say that C'naan was decreed to suffer this degree of maltreatment. In fact, according to the Torah, when a slave who suffered a significant injury was required to be freed.
And certainly the ideal relationship shown in the Torah between Shem & C'naan was that of Avraham Avinu & Eliezer, who was in charge of Avraham's possessions and entrusted with his wealth.
Anyways, how exactly does this d'var torah apply practically today? I'm not saying that the words of the torah are not always relevant c"v, but how would we go about identifying a specific person or group as b'nai cham? Obviously Cham committed a serious sin, but we can't identify any specific person or group today as being of B'nai Cham.
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646: The sarcastic comment not to use epidurals or machinery would not be a metzius. The status of Cham's grandchildren, is.
anon: If you read the meforshim provided in the first comment of this thread, you will easily determine who the progeny of Cham is. One of them has been in the news a lot lately.
The "punishment" of Cham's children is a metzius, it is collective (per the Torah) not individual. This is perhaps much like the "punishment" of Chava (and all future women) who must bear the pain of childbirth, for having enticed Adam to sin.
And with all due respect (I mean that), it is not your place to make that chiddush in comparing it to Klal Yisroel's suffering during galus.
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Just received the following email.
it may not be so bad....
k.jpgMaran Hagon Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita is quoted as having said [on Wednesday] - following the election of Senator Barack Obama as America's next president, that this is not the first time that a black person was elected to a leadership post, 'News1′ reports.
Yiddishkeit believes a person with black skin is a descendant of Cham, the son of Noach, upon who it is written "he will serve his brother". Rav Kanievsky stated in regard to the president-elect that he will be a "servant who rules", adding there is a historical precedent with King Herod (Hurdus), who was also black. "Herod made Tzaros for Am Yisrael, but he also built the Beis HaMikdosh" stated the Rav.
There is a measure of ambivalence regarding Herod, who came from a family of converts. He began ruling over Malchus Yehuda in the year 37 BCE after conquering Yerushalayim from the last Chasmonaim king, Matisyahu Antignus. He was supported by the Roman Se
Editors Note: Glad to see that a YWN story got emailed to you :)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=25554
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Lol! sorry, I guesse I was so impressed with the piece that I didnt even notice,,,,,
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Zalman,
I think what Keen meant was the same way when the torah says it is the metzios for woman to have labor pains and for pepole to have to sweat to make a parnassah dosnt mean that this is ideal and it should be kept that way if you can avoid it, (i.e. using an epidural or machine)
so to with the decendents of cham just because that was the metzios dosnt mean it necesseraly should stay that way if it can be avoided
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Speaking of a servant who rules, think of it this way: he just became our number one public servant!
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tzippi, and he's been hired to clean up a huge mess created mostly by a bunch of white people.
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BTW, If this vort on Cham is OK, then kindly explain the outrage over Rev. Jeremiah Wright's words. Why was Obama supposed to have protested?
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"If this vort on Cham is OK..."
We are Yidden, we have the Torah, and the Torah is 100% Emes. There is no IF's about if.
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Come on Joseph, a yid is allowed to listen to a racial vort, but a non-Jew is not? Where is your sense of yashrus?
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If its from the Torah, it is 100% Emes.
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Joseph, you are just repeating your slogan, but not answering the question. Does Obama have the same right to Emunas Chachamim in his minister as you have to yours? Maybe Obama was right not to protest, since he didn't want to be a kofer according to the best of his understanding that his minister is telling him the emes from G-d. How does he have a right to argue on his minister?
If you have an answer, I am glad to hear it, but if you will just be repeating your slogans for the umpteenth time, then why bother.
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Pashuteh Yid,
Absolutely, Obama has every right to believe Rev. Wright's stuff. Every bit of it.
And every American has the right to vote against Obama because of it.
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Joseph, and if you or another yid were running for office here in the USA, and the newspapers asked you whether you believe this teaching about Cham, what would you tell the newspaper? Yes? then a huge chillul hashem. No? then a lie. How would you handle it?
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I would handle it by NOT running for public office.
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So in your opinion, no ehliche yid can ever run for public office? In addition, even if you don't run for public office, this issue may still come up for any number of reasons (say you get a job with a Jewish organization and a donor asks what your view is, or someobody on the street just happens to ask what Jews believe), so your approach of hiding and keeping it quiet may not work. I really think it must be dealt with, and you don't have any method for doing so that will not create a huge chillul hashem or involve sheker.
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