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Is eating with your hands (pizza, burgers, etc.), without utensils, unrefined for a ben or bas Torah?
Hi Avhaben:
May I humbly ask how we would be able to eat Matzah (& Maror & Karpas & Korech) on Leyl Pesach if not with our hands?
Most definitely. The proper way to eat things like that, is to gnaw it right off the plate. That way, you can lick the plate clean, as you go.
Next question?
no
minhag avosaini beyadaini
In places where it is socially acceptable to eat those foods with one’s hands (which is just about everywhere), it would be unrefined to NOT eat them with one’s hands.
Do *you* think it’s more refined to eat a hamburger with a fork and knife? Can you name a single gadol anywhere who eats the Korech sandwich at the seder with a fork and knife? Can you name any who eat cookies with silverware?
Interestingly enough, the ridiculousness of what you posit was the subject of a Seinfeld episode, where the characters start eating Snickers bars with a fork and knife.
The Wolf
Outside of NY, Ive seen people eat Pizza with a Fork and Knife, It looks so strange
Try to eat a slice in the NY area with a Fork and Knife you will look more uncouth than if you eat it the “Proper Way”
Agree with Mr. Wolf.
One is supposed to grab less than a k’Beitsah amount (about 2 ounces)at a time. At that rate, one should cut/break/rip the pizza first.
I have heard though in the name of Rav BenSion Abba Shaul, that since some foods are eaten in big pieces, like pizza and sandwiches, then it may be OK to eat them like that.
lol @ TCG
Well how do you eat corn on the cob?
I always eat with my mouth. Beings that eat with their hands is the stuff of science fiction.
The Chassidishe Gatesheader – Great line, I’ve heard it besheim R’ Teitz from Elizabeth. Lol.
This is correct. Pigs eat with their hands. Humans use utensils.
Lol. That’s like saying a knitted yarmulke is goyish.
Wolf: I once saw someone eat a cookie with a fork and knife. Once.
I once saw someone trying to eat lamb chops with a knife and fork. It was absolutely hilarious!!!
TCG lol. Arent there chasidisher reasons not to ‘shtech’ meat with a knife or fork?
Explain mayyim achronim
popa_bar_abba: Only evil alien pigs eat with their hands.
squeak is tayning gut
If I am a pig, can I eat with my hands? What if I cut off a pig’s hands, and wear them like gloves? What if my wife forgot to wash the silverware? What if the food is burnt and I can’t stab it with a fork?
Any ideas?
avhaben: could you imagine rav elyashiv or rav chaim kanievski or the gerrer rebbe driving their own car? would you drive your own car? is it wrong that you would?
besides, maybe all three do eat pizza, but only when the cameras arent looking…
Finger foods are meant to be eaten with fingers. Do you cut up your sandwiches, too? No one should sit at the dinner table and eat like a behaima, but common sense needs to prevail also… Some foods are meant to be eaten when held in the hand. Pizza included, unless it is so unwieldy, drippy, and bulky that it makes more sense to use a knife and fork. I have had pizza served in the same place, where I once had to eat it that way. Same pizza, same size and shape slice, but more difficult to handle for some reason, that day. The cheese was more gooey.
I know someone who eats pizza backwards (crust first). Don’t know why.
(crust first).
I do that. Ok, not really, but sort of. The 1st bite is the tip (minhag avosainu) but then I rip off the crust and eat that, while the rest of the slice cools off, so the cheese does not come off in one long pull.
Plus, the crust is my least favorite part, so best to get that done with early on and then wash it down with the good part
Avhaben: Of course I can imagine them eating pizza the same way everyone else does. Why wouldn’t they?
I eat pizza backwards and the reason is because I like the crust less than the rest of the pizza. In this way, I get to eat the part I like better toward the end.
Of course, I could cut off the crust and not eat it at all but then I would be ba’al tashchis
I eat pizza with chop stix, but sushi with a knife and fork…go figure.
bpt: Hm, makes sense. Do you eat it backward afterward? 😛
” Do you eat it backward afterward? 😛 “
No, once the crust is gone, I just plow thru the remainder. But I do try to keep it triangular; otherwise, I wind up with a pizza that wraps around my head line headphones)
Hey, OneOfMany, nice subtitle!
“head line headphones” <– huhwhat?
yitayningwut: Oh really…poor Tonks must be rolling in her grave… 😛
“<– huhwhat?”
Sorry, I meant to say, “like headphones” (meaning, if you eat from the crust end, and just keep eating towards the point, by the time you are half way thru, the left and right corners will keep advancing towards the back of your head, and before you know it, the edges are pracitally in your ears).
All of a sudden, a fork and knife sound like a good idea.
1- Pizza crust first because those who are maakpid like Mishna Berrurah and Rav Shlomo Zalman to make Hamotzie on Pizza they want to make the Bracha on plain crsut wiht no sauce or chgees.
2- In Kabala there are 7 foods one eats with his hands, no other. Although we are not on that madraygah, let us be careful not to mock.
3- I have seen Gedolim and Rabbanim chashuvim eat a sandwich with fork and kniofe. My Rebbi exlained that it is not proper to put food in mouth, bite and pull some out. From mussar point of view It is uncouth and form Kabbalistic point of view is a rejection of portions of food which then would never be eaten. Breaking off pieces and eating a piece at a time is the proper way to live on the higher standards.
4- I have seen some great people do the same with Matzah and Korach as well. Great people are consistent.
5- We need to avoid demonstrating our ignorance by criticizing, mocking, being sarcastic without checking things out. Yiddishkeit is a multi level experiential possibility. Not everyone is expected to be the same and different standards DO apply to different people. MOst certainly laytzanus is not a virtue.
Oh lol. 🙂
Av- I hope more people would feel like you……… too many with limited scope vision and knowledge are ot aware of the limitations and feel all- including the Gedolim- are equally limited. Talk radio syndrome. Everyone is an expert.
Not to criticize or embarrass anyone here, but at a simcha I once saw someone eating a jelly donut on a plate with a fork and knife. I have nothing really to say other than it is something I will never forget.
BTGuy, in a good way, correct?
4- I have seen some great people do the same with Matzah and Korach as well. Great people are consistent.
Please. Please name me one person who cuts their matzoh with a knife and fork and eats it without touching it with their hands.
In addition, I call foul — specifically, the foul of “moving the goal posts.”
The OP asked if it’s “unrefined” for a ben/bas Torah to eat certain foods (specifically, foods for which it is socially accepted to eat with one’s hands) with utensils.
You, on the other hand, start bringing examples from unnamed “gedolim” and “great people.” Even if your examples are true, perhaps it is something that they held for themselves but for the average ben/bas Torah, it is not unrefined.
The Wolf
We ought to punish trolls with flogging.
Rabbaim
Sandwiches are a relatively a modern invention,so I doubt the manuals gad them in mind. They are meant to be eaten with hands, else why bother with the bread. Choosing to eat them with a knife and fork is personal preference,not a sign of refinement
obviously it depends. use you brains.
i heard a Rabbi once speak and he said that he doesn’t eat pizza. i never understood why but i think he said something like, because its like italian food, and its not eaten properly..and he doesnt eat sushi either-i don’t understand
Yitay: I second the motion.
I was once at the Rav’s house on Purim. The Rav and his wife were Europeans, Old Fashioned Europeans. I couldnt imagine them eating anything else except Chicken and Kugel because thats what they always ate.
To my surprise there was this huge Sushi platter. needless to say I was shocked and I asked the Rebbitzen about the Sushi platter.
She then told me, actually she doesnt eat it and it was her son-in-laws.
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