Enough Talk on Shidduchim

AZ, I have been involved in shidduchim that went 3 or 4 dates and then fizzled out. And I have known couples who canceled 3 weeks before the wedding. As the shadchan involved I wouldn’t want to get compensation if it didn’t go through. I have set up many, many couples who have told me I am on the right track and I have “listened and understood” them, but it didn’t click with that particular person. Unfortunately or fortunately I was only lucky enough to make one shidduch for my own niece, but I was always successful in getting it right. On the other hand, I have coached many young people through the shidduch process and that could mean 1 date, 3 or 4 dates or all the way through to the wedding and beyond.

I don’t believe a shadchan should get paid until they go to the chupah. It is not a done deal unless their is a marriage no matter how hard a shadchan works. A salesman that pitches a sale for 5 weeks does not get paid until the merchandise is paid for even if the sale goes through. That is the nature of the business. There is a double edge where Shadchanim are involved it is not only a business it is also a mitzvah and therefore it has to follow Torah guidelines and not new convention.

Unfortunately it is parents who have turned the shidduch world into crisis. Yes a pamphlet and discussions in shuls by their own Rabbonim to prepare them for shidduchim is very much in order. Parents look for their ideal son-in-law or daughter-in-law. Parents look for their ideal mechutanim. Parents look for prospects they would be proud to show off to their friends and family. Parents in many cases look for a match that will agree to make the type of wedding they feel they deserve to have to impress their friends and family. Parents think their children are perfect and and a gift to the world instead of realizing that no one is perfect and their children are gift Hashem gave them not the whole world. And that each child is only truly half a person until they find their “better half”.

There are many an older single who’s parents got them to that point by rejecting one prospect after another without even discussing or presenting them to their child. Let me give you an example. When my own daughter was dating, a relative was chasing after this bochur and finally after 8 months got a yes and presented the shidduch to me. I was told that the mother wants the mechutanim to pay for his law school. Her concept was that she brought him to this point and when he got married the mechutanim should take it from there. I rejected the shidduch. My relative was very upset. She said, what’s wrong, why won’t I let my daughter date him. I said because the mother is nuts. When her child gets married does it mean he is no longer her child? Since when is it the mechutonim’s job to teach the boy a parnasah, that is his own parent’s responsibility. I was appalled by her chutzpah. it wasn’t that they couldn’t afford it, it was that she held her son on a pedestal and expected the mechutanim to do the same. I said that this woman would never value my daughter the same way she valued her son and I didn’t want to subject my daughter to that.

Well can you figure out the end of the story? My daughter was married ten years with 3 kids before we heard he was finally married. This falls into the same category as the stupid question issue. People who are looking for reasons “why not” to allow a shidduch. People who are looking for why “they don’t live up to our standards” or who hold themselves up to a higher madreigah. We need to understand that we are all equal in the eyes of Hashem. And that what we are looking for might not be what Hashem has planned for us. So we might need to get off our high horses and take a better look in the mirror. We are no better than the other human beings that Hashem created.

Most of her posts are columns. (-;

Having kids in the parsha, I’ll say that your kid making a good impression on the shadchan goes far, as does courtesy and menschlichkeit, and sincere verbal (and/or written) expression of appreciation for the efforts.

Any shadchan who accepts payment before a marriage is contracted is going against halacha. Please don’t call that person a shadchan.

AZ, maybe you can start a dating agency with these conditions. In that case, a dating agency can take a fee up front to set up dates according to the personalities, needs and compatibility of the parties (like the goyim do). Under these conditions, whatever arrangements are made beforehand that everyone agrees to are appropriate. But then these are not shadchanim, these would be dating agencies and the workers are entitled to get paid for their work, as are anyone employed by them.

AZ, I will never believe that a shadchan without fail deserves to be paid for a shidduch that did go through. Unless it goes through it is not a shidduch – it is merely an attempted shidduch. I don’t pay a broker who ALMOST sells my house, no matter how hard he or she worked on the sale, and any commission-based employment is the same. You didn’t close the deal, you don’t get paid. If you feel that is unfair (and based on what you write, that is so), then have the written understanding BEFORE making a shidduch, that after a certain number of dates, a predetermined specific amount of money is to be paid, whether or not it goes to the chuppah. I am sure that will cut down on the number of people who continue to date when they are not “sure” if they really want to, after the first three dates. Money always talks.

AZ, that is called “bribing” the shadchan which I don’t think is fair or right. A shadchan really needs to try their best to “match” compatible partners and not push a paid client on a prospect. That will result in what I think Jphone mentioned that he was set up with a girl that was totally looking for someone that was not like him.

The position of a shadchan is to make a match that works and when that happens they get schar both in the mitzvah itself and in payment. The problem with the 3rd or 4th date is that kids are so confused these days especially the more they date. The more prospects they go out with the more they have to compare with and the more they get confused. What they really need is a dating coach or a shadchan that is really involved and can help them through the dating process. Bribes will not help this. And the worst part is the more they discuss their dates with their friends the more confused they get. Friends confuse more than they help. People think that friends know them better than anyone else, but friend do more harm to shidduchim than good. They think that their honesty and truthfulness is what is best and they are being supportive. But in truth the best way to be supportive is to be quiet and allow the person involved in the shidduch to talk things through and come to their own conclusions. Stop comparing your dates with your friends. Stop telling them what happened with you and your husband and you and your wife. It doesn’t help it makes it worse. Many friends forget that they didn’t love their spouse at the dating stage or they were awkward with each other and that throws their friends off because they feel they should have more feelings at the 3rd, 4th or even 5th date and thats why they call it off.

When someone tells their friend “he was a jerk” the friend will usually agree instead of saying “well men also have awkward moments and get nervous and confused, why do you think he was acting that way….” or when a girls says ” i was upset because he ….” a friend would say “you are right he is not for you” while a coach or shadchan might say “how many times did he do that? Is it part of his personality or was it just a one time thing?….” When a boy says “she isn’t pretty enough” a friend will agree “you deserve better or yeah….” when a shadchan or coach will say “have you taken a look in the mirror lately? What do you think you deserve? Why would you say that? Who are you comparing her to? What do you think Hashem has in mind for you? What is your definition of pretty?…’

At any rate, you believe what you do and I don’t think anyone will change your mind, but having married off 3 kids already I don’t see your point as being productive. However, I do see a use for it in a dating service where everything is up front and it is a working relationship where everyone involved is involved as a job who is working to earn a living which has nothing to do with the outcome. Their job is to take info and use that info to set people up on dates and that’s it. Whatever happens between the parties is not their responsibility. As long as that is understood it should be perfectly simple and equitable. Pay the fee and you get set up. If it doesn’t work, pay the fee again or work on something like $200 gets you set up 4 times.

Tzippi, you know what I mean. As hardworking as someone may be, if they don’t close the deal, unfortunately they do not reap the rewards. My appreciation might be in the form of recommending that realtor to OTHERS who would be more successful in buying their dream home through this person. But if I did not buy a house through him or her, I am not paying a token commisssion just because of the effort involved. I say thank you, and mean it sincerely when someone goes to bat for me. It does not mean I owe them money. In some fields that would be a different story. You pay the doctor whether or not he is successful at treating your condition. But some lawyers only get paid if they win the case. So it is with shadchanim, as far as I am concerned, unless they prearrange a different deal beforehand.

aries2756:

oomis:

Tzippy:

To clarify: you would discourage a parent from offering compensation to a shadchan who got their child to a 3rd/4th date even though in all likelihood it will help get their child more attention and more quality dates.

A simple yes or no will do

I am not for encouraging people to act out of desperation, nor for fomenting desperation, especially if they don’t pay anywhere near full tuition, or will have to rely on tzedaka to do something that may, if some people would have their way, become SOP, r”l.

AZ, as long as you are in contact with the menahel of a large girls school please talk to he about being available when people call for shidduch references. When I called a menahel of a Large Girl’s school the response was “Do you really expect me to remember all the girls that walked through here? Do you know how many girl’s that would be?” My answer was “Yes each one was there at least 4 years, either you or someone else there should make it a point to get to know all of them for shidduch purposes.”

AZ, the attention you are talking about can also be negative, if that child keeps ONLY getting to the three or four dates each time, but it never follows through. No payment is due for less than final results. But I am with Tzippi, a nice little token of appreciation might be in order, depending on the circumstances, and a thank you note, surely is in all cases.

“oomis1105: Here’s a little secret. take a typical normal regular girl. By the time she dates 5 boys 3 times each she will already be married.”

AZ, without going into stories here, I do not agree with your secret. Too many girls disprove that.

Just saw this weeks yated-readers write. check it out….

jphone: Bribery, mezumin after the fact???? That’s usually before hand…

AZ, Professional shadchonim take big bucks and they are entitled to it. Parents who go to them do not give them a “gift” when a shidduch goes through they give them a payment for their services and that can be up to and beyond $10,000. If that is not enough of an incentive for the Shadchan to do their best for each and every client, why would the addition couple of hundred help? No one sets the shadchan’s fee but the shadchan.

On the other hand, non-professional shadchanim who do it for the mitzvah still have to get paid and are usually grateful for whatever gift whether monetary or otherwise that they receive.

Anuran – HUH????????????????

What does Romeo and Juliet have to do with this discussion? And Mods, what’s up with this?

“What does Romeo and Juliet have to do with this discussion?”

Another post put it up as the ideal of romantic love. I believe the post was deleted, so my response is a bit of an orphan.

aries2756:

I have been in contact with close to 50 shadchanim over the last couple of years. Not a single one of them has ever asked for nor received anywhere close to 10g for a shidduch they have completed.

Many many of them work hours and hours each day some. Some of them 24/7 literally. Perhaps because they don’t have pre determined demands of 10g makes them not proffesional in your book. It is to these and the vast majority of the shadcahnim out there that I recommend giving compensation after 3 dates.

what you describe is so uncoomon probably less then 10 people in the US have a system set up that their fee is 10g for a completed shidduch.

I certainly agree with you. A shadchan who expects 10g for a completed shidduc and gets has no need for minor compensation after a couple of dates.

For the vast vast majorit of shadchanim who receive aprox one to to two thousand dolars for completed shidduchim. Yes I think compenation after a few dates is a very smart things for parents to do!

AZ, we obviously don’t live in the same neighborhood or run in the same circles. My kids are B”H married for years, but that was the going rate when they were dating and B”H we did not have the need to go to a professional. The one to two thousand dollar amount you speak of was the amount of the gift we bestowed (as expected) on the non-professional.

So maybe if parents see that they are not getting anywhere with the Shadchan they should visit more than one or switch to one that will take their child under their wing and work on their behalf. I have heard too many stories from young women themselves who told me “the Shadchan didn’t even speak to me. I was sitting there and she took another call, looked at me for two minutes and waved me out of the room.”

Everyone has a sheliach as well as a zivug and if the sheliach you chose is not working for your benefit maybe that is not the one Hashem chose for you.

I take the liberty of posting without reading through the whole thread.

PROFESSIONAL SHADCHANIM? Who needs ’em? When my class was in shidduchim, we discussed making a trip to a well-known shadchan who works with bochurim in a particular yeshiva of the type most of us were looking for. We decided against it, and no one in my class (about 15 girls) went to ANY professional shadchan. B”H, close to fifteen years later (actually, much earlier already), only 1 of us is still single (not to minimize her plight, c”v).

Everyone’s shidduch came through family, friends, networking, etc.

But, THAT ONLY HAPPENS WHEN WE TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EACH OTHER!

aries2756: “My kids are B”H married for years,…..but that was the going rate when they were dating and B”H we did not have the need to go to a professional….”

and as such you are in likelihood not in touch with what is going on today….

Jphone: the overwhelming majority of shadchanim have no fees neither up front nor for the completed shidduch.

tomim tihye: today’s is not the same as fifteen years ago. a recent study of girls dating vbetween 5-10 years show over 13% still single….

Oomis1105: so please explain why less then 1% of the people bother to do as you suggest (write so much as a nice card) when their child gets to a third/forth date?? and if you think I’m making it up try speaking to fifty shadchanim….

So, is the “crisis” a result of not shmearing enough, or the right shadchanim? A result of shadchanim not working hard enough because of hurt feelings and the lack of hakaras hatov? Not enough shadchanim? Not enough members of a specific gender? Not enough members of a specific gender involved in shidduchim at a young enough age? To many people looking for a crisis and not shidduchim? To many people who have decided that this crisis is so overwhelming and they simply gave up? So many theories.

Though we idealize what happened long ago, there were many abuses of the shidduch system, particularly toward the end of the 19th century and early 20th century, as the result.

One such perversion of the process was shidduch “farming.” A boy would become engaged and even marry a girl, collect the dowries and trousseaus, then move on to the next town or even to America.

Jphone:

Your cyncism aside,

The “crisis” is a result of an inequtiy of numbers of girls in relation to the boys. This has many devastating derivatives, among them it causes the girls side to desperately hound shadchanim in hope of getting attention. Having more shadchanim involved would help slightly (I write slightly because the boys seem to be getting married any way). The idea of girls families offering compensation for getting quality dates is simply a way for a individual girls to get attention from the shadchan.

It is my belief that both sides should compensate the shadchan as simple mentlichkeit but that was not the message of my original post in this thread.