I have a difficult time believing that there can be ANY disagreement what R" Moshe Z'ls position is about this when R' Dovid and R' Reuvevn Shlita are alive, baruch hashem ad meah viesrim, to ask. Would anyone doubt their answer as not accurate (whatever that answer may be)? Would anyone accuse them of an agenda?
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Eruv in Brooklyn
(328 posts)-
Posted 5 years ago #
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I apologize to all the readers for not spending more time on making my posts more readable. Is it possible to edit an existing post or do I need to repost everything?
Posted 5 years ago # -
jphone - I would love to hear what Rav Dovid shlita would say to some of my arguments. I would like to hear precise rebuttals, not just a general wave of the hand.
Posted 5 years ago # -
You can't edit an existing post. There is no reason to repost, but if you can format the future posts that would be helpful. If you don't know how, 'i can only try' is quite an expert in teaching the skills.
Posted 5 years ago # -
YW Moderator-80 - Thank You. I do know how, and I should have done so previously.
Posted 5 years ago # -
You might get a wave of the hand if all you will do is regurgitate 40 years of arguments that have been answered a million times.
Im sure you'll have no problem walking into MTJ and getting a definitive answer regarding R' Moshe psak.
Posted 5 years ago # -
jphone - "Im sure you'll have no problem walking into MTJ and getting a definitive answer regarding R' Moshe psak."
Don't be so sure. If it was so easy to do, it would have been done already.
It's at least comforting to note that both sides have qualified piskei halacha that are being relied upon. And hopefully, the machlocus is l'shem shamayim.
Posted 5 years ago # -
jphone - Please, these arguments regarding Rav Moshe zt”l have not been around and have never been answered. I have friends who have spoken to Rav Dovid shilta and he has not answered these arguments satisfactorily.
Posted 5 years ago # -
david1999. Your friends, I'm sure, are all tremendous geonim, poskim and lamdanim, not seen since the times of the Rambam, and I'm sure they can all run circles around R' Dovid Shlita when it comes to hilchos eruvin. Therefore, on behalf of the entire tzibbur I humbly and respectfully ask that your friends publicly announce who they are, so that we can all benefit from their tremendous geonus and lamdus and have an open door for all shaylos we may have.
Posted 5 years ago # -
"Please, these arguments regarding Rav Moshe zt”l have not been around and have never been answered."
(Apparantly the moderators/censors didnt like what I wrote the 1st time around (you guys dont like sarcasm?). If at first you dont succeed, try and try again.)
Especially when it is directed against other posters.
I'm not sure if that is a mistake or not. Are you saying that the question you have are NEW (you write "not been around and never answered"), OR did you mean to write "have been around forever and have not been answered"?
"I have friends who have spoken to Rav Dovid shilta and he has not answered these arguments satisfactorily."
They obviously satisfy R' David.
Posted 5 years ago # -
jphone - Both, they are new and have never been answered. You claimed that these arguments have been regurgitated for 40 years. Please cite examples. Rav Dovid has not answered the fact that Brooklyn clearly is encompassed by mechitzos and that the population is nowhere near 3 million. It is sad that some believe that once a p’sak is issued it can never change even when it is proven to be based on false information.
Mod – I am not afraid of jphone's sarcasm. On the contrary I think it would be most illuminating as to who I am debating. Moreover, it would demonstrate how irrational those who oppose eruvin today are.
It would not be in keeping with the tone we are trying to maintain however.
Posted 5 years ago # -
If you want to ask that question to a specific poster, then please rephrase it in a respectful manner
Posted 5 years ago # -
"Moreover, it would demonstrate how irrational those who oppose eruvin today are."
???
Posted 5 years ago # -
david1999: I've answered the question regarding the population a bunch of times. Read through the thread, you'll see.
I'm not a Rav (far from it), but if you have the necessary amount of people, mechitzos don't really matter, right?Posted 5 years ago # -
ICOT - When a teshuvah is predicated on certain facts it’s wrong to argue that even if the metzius changed the teshuvah is still relevant. The fact is Rav Moshe’s teshuvos on eruvin were based on information that is not factual. Brooklyn is encompassed be three mechitzos omed merubeh al haparutz and its population is less than 3 million. Why do those who oppose a Brooklyn eruv argue that these teshuvos are nevertheless pertinent?
Posted 5 years ago # -
Dear R' Dovid
1: I am not an expert in hilchos Eruvin. I do not know what constitutes a halachic wall. Therefore I can not answer your question about Brooklyn and walls.
2: Whatever or wherever those halachic walls may be, R' Dovid Feinstein does not believe they are valid, for whatever reason.
3: The populaton of Brooklyn, according to the US Census http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/36047.html was 2,556,598 in 2008 (I wouldnt be so quick to say "nowhere near 3 million"). What relevance the number 3,000,000 has to hilchos Eruvin, again, I dont know, apparantly you do. R' Dovid Feinstein is obviously not bothered by this number as you are.
4: Someone copied and pasted all sorts of info from another site (I think it is still online here) that specifically addressed the questions you asked me. The answers meant nothing to me because the questions do not either. again, I do not know hilchos Eruvin.
5: Personally, I dont care "what is said" about anything. I only care about what my Rav says right now.
6: I am not trying to intimidate, impress or humor you with sarcasm. You can take what I said however you want.
7: I am NOT DEBATING YOU. Not in hilchos eruvin, not regarding the veracity of the things found in any sefer, not regarding the things said in the name of Rav Dovid Feinstein Shlita, not in the name of R" Moshe Z'l, nothing. Now that I wrote this, I realize that I am debating you in ONE thing. Your questions have been asked, someone posted answers to them, you just dont find them to be SATISFACTORY to your liking and the friends you quoted. I am NOT debating the merits of any answers.
8: If you believe that those who dont use the Eruv today are irrational, so be it.
EDITED
Posted 5 years ago # -
Feif Un - Actually, you have not answered any of my arguments regarding the population. All the claims such as the illegal’s need to be included in the tally or that Queens has distinct neighborhoods are excuses after the fact and are not mentioned in Rav Moshe’s teshuvos at all. Moreover, some of these arguments directly contradict Rav Moshe’s shitos in eruvin and demonstrates that those making these claims are not familiar with Rav Moshe’s teshuvos at all.
You are incorrect. Mechitzos would classify an area as a reshus hayachid notwithstanding the fact that there is a rabbim traversing therein.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Dear Editor. I give up.
jphone's original deleted post has been undeleted and can be found above:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/eruv-in-brooklyn/page/6#post-107081
Posted 5 years ago # -
david1999-
The ? was regarding the word usage.
I think you meant "innacurate".Posted 5 years ago # -
jphone - 2) No. Rav Dovid never claimed that they are not valid. He simply does not want to change his father’s p’sak (actually it’s more like his father’s personal opinion).
3) According to Rav Moshe the relevance of 3 million is that this is the required population for an area to be deemed as a reshus harabbim. 500,000 people is a very large proportion of 3 million.
4) And I posted a rebuttal of all of Rav Hirsch’s arguments.
5) I agree regarding following ones rav. However, there is no reason why one can’t be educated regarding the halachos.
7) First of all, they were only asked, at the most, 9 years ago and not as you claim over the past forty years. Second of all, it is not only that Rav Hirsch did not answer satisfactorily he simply missed many points. Third of all, Rav Hirsch admitted to a friend of mine that according to Rav Moshe the Brooklyn mechitzos are sufficient.
8) My point was that many of the arguments are irrational. Of course, if one followed his rav who does not allow carrying I would agree that is rational.Posted 5 years ago # -
ICOT - No, I believe that they are irrational because they are not interested in the emes. They are basically saying please don’t bother me with the facts, the p’sak is eternal regardless of the metziuos.
Posted 5 years ago # -
"Of course, if one followed his rav who does not allow carrying I would agree that is rational."
Note: This is not directed at ANYONE specifically.
What is irrational are those who have no confidence in the psak of their Rav that they have to start debating it with those who disagree with the psak. Especially when they are not experts in the relevant halachos.
Posted 5 years ago # -
jphoneYour friends, I'm sure, are all tremendous geonim, poskim and lamdanim, not seen since the times of the Rambam, and I'm sure they can all run circles around R' Dovid Shlita when it comes to hilchos eruvin. Therefore, on behalf of the entire tzibbur I humbly and respectfully ask that your friends publicly announce who they are, so that we can all benefit from their tremendous geonus and lamdus and have an open door for all shaylos we may have.
You missed the point. What I meant was that Rav Dovid did not answer satisfactorily because he refuses to accept that his father’s teshuvos are based on incorrect information. Just for the record my friends are members of Rav Tuvia Goldstein zt”l’s kollel.
Posted 5 years ago # -
jphone - It’s unfortunate that when it comes to eruvin some rabbanim do not inspire much confidence in their p’sak.
Posted 5 years ago # -
You appear to be saying that regarding this psak, R' Dovid is not basing his psak on facts. What are the possibilities.
. Either he is being fed erroneous (by mistake) or false (on purpose) information that contradicts your "facts".
. He has no other information available to him, but your facts, and he chooses to ignore them for whatever reason.
Posted 5 years ago # -
No. Rav Dovid shlita wants to keep the status quo no matter what the facts are.
Posted 5 years ago # -
cherrybim: just saw ur post. Sorry I didnt reply till now, i've been very busy.
when the Safek is a serious one, one should feel inclined to go l'chumra.
Not in general. It's actually important not to be a big machmir.Hashem Is Everywhere: You are wrong to call them mechlelei Shabbos!
They are not playing with anything, (those I referred to) and i'ts not your problem.
it's their Poisek's problem. (and don't tell me kol yisroel Areivim etc.) That is not
a Tainah here. They have a halachic right to be soimech on their Rov.
(Their actual moreh hora'ah that is.)Posted 5 years ago # -
jpohone,
When the anti-Eruv people put out a rebuttal brochure (and it was more of a "you bums" than a point by point rebuttal), there was a factually incorrect statement in there by R' Feinstein. I do not know if he was fed it or was just mistaken.Posted 5 years ago # -
"No. Rav Dovid shlita wants to keep the status quo no matter what the facts are."
The way I understand this comment is as follows. Please correct me if this is not what you are saying.
Rav Davids psak is not based on any halacha, he is simply being stubborn and refuses to change the status quo, no matter what the facts are.
Posted 5 years ago # -
bein_hasdorim: Actually, in order to negate an eruv in Brooklyn one would need to be machmir on a sefek sefek sfeka. Even if one would not want to rely on the criterion of shishim ribo he can rely on the fundament that the streets need to be mefulash and an eruv can be established l’chatchilah. If one does not want to rely on the criterion of mefulash either he can rely on the fact that Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos and is inherently classified as a reshus hayachid (notwithstanding the possibility of a rabbim enclosed therein) and an eruv can be established l’chatchilah. Consequentially, even if the matter would be a d’Oraysa we would go l’kula.
Posted 5 years ago # -
truthsharer: I believe that you are referring to Rav Dovid’s statement that Flatbush and its environs contain a population of 2.5 million?
Posted 5 years ago # -
Correct.
Posted 5 years ago # -
I'm not sure what "Flatbush and its environs" is supposed to mean. But I did post a link to the US Census Beureau that states the estimated population of Kings County, NY (aka Brooklyn, NY) for 2005 was greater than 2.5 million people. Again, the implications of this number, or the area it represents is beyond me, and I do not wish to discuss its relevance. I am commenting specifically on the population of Brooklyn NY according to the US Census Bureau.
See the census numbers here http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/36047.html
Posted 5 years ago # -
jphone, Brooklyn is not the same as "Flatbush and its environs."
Posted 5 years ago # -
jphone - Well, the whole point is the relevance of this statement. Rav Moshe’s shita has nothing to do with a community and its environs. According to Rav Moshe if an area of 12 mil by 12 mil contains a population of three million it’s a reshus harabbim otherwise it’s not. If we reckon any part of Brooklyn that is 12 mil by 12 mil in area it would contain a population closer to 2.2-2.3 million since the area Brooklyn occupies is greater than 12 mil by 12 mil (as admitted to by Rav Moshe himself). Rav Dovid’s words seem purposely ambiguous in order not to involve himself in the arguments regarding the misinformation inconsistencies of his words so that the status quo remains.
Posted 5 years ago # -
The fact is Rav Moshe’s teshuvos on eruvin were based on information that is not factual.
David1999,
Do you follow R' Moshe on anything? Cholov Yisroel? Why do you criticize people who follow his rulings in general for not abandoning him regarding this eruv?
Posted 5 years ago # -
I did criticize anyone who follows their posek. My point is that since Rav Moshe’s teshuvos were based on incorrect information there should be a reevaluation of their relevancy. However, it seems that some people do not want change at all.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Why should I believe you that R' Moshe relied on incorrect information?
And you did not answer my question: do you follow R' Moshe on any halachic matter?
Posted 5 years ago # -
"Rav Dovid’s words seem purposely ambiguous in order not to involve himself in the arguments"
I'm not sure if he is being purposely ambiguous or not. I did not ask him, and quite frankly it doesnt matter to me one way or another.
I do believe that the following is certainly true "in order not to involve himself in the arguments". He has his opinion, follows it, shares it with those who ask and is not concerned that there are those who disagree with him, for any reason.
As a general rule of thumb, I am automatically suspect of anyone who paskens a halacha, whether it is hilchos eruvin, shabbos, kashrus or in any other area and then feels the need to publish a kuntres and mail it to the neighborhood with justification for the psak. When I received the mailings both for and against the eruv last winter I put everything in shaimos (I suspect I could have put it in the trash to) and then signed up for all sorts of mass mailings to be sent to the return addresses on both mailings. You send me spam, I will arrange to have it sent back to you.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Question:
I live on the cul de sac (Dead End) street within the "Eruv" boundries. A few of the home owners use the Flatbush Eruv, other don't. Because the area is enclosed on three sides, it was fairly easy to string a line from a home on side of the street to the other, and behold, we have an Eruv for the entire street.Now, according to the "No Eruv in Flatbush/Brooklyn group", is our Eruv muter if it was approved for meeting all other criteria for eruvin?
If the answer is yes, then why not make eruvin in Flatbush which would exclude the disputed areas?
Posted 5 years ago # -
aryeh3 - "do you follow R' Moshe on any halachic matter?"
Incompetent, irrelevant, immaterial, and it's no one's business.
Posted 5 years ago # -
aryeh3: Because there is nowhere near a million people who come into Brooklyn daily and the population of Brooklyn is not three million and Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos.
It is totally irrelevant if I do or don’t follow Rav Moshe regarding any issue. In any case, my point here is that even those who do follow Rav Moshe either don’t know his shitos or don’t care to know his shitos in eruvin. It seems that they want the matter to stay unchanged. I believe that this is unjust.
Posted 5 years ago # -
jphone: It is interesting how you continuously debate my arguments but then turn around and declare that my rebuttals do not concern you.
You are mistaken. The fact that Rav Dovid felt a need to pen a letter suggesting that nothing changed and attempted to rebut the main argument that would support the eruv (according to his father) proves that he was concerned with what was said by those who disagree with him.
Regarding this particular issue the only way that the public (including the rabbanim) can become familiar with the matter is through education. Over the years there has been much dissemination of the anti-eruv opinion but little from the opposing side. These mailings were designed to rectify this matter. In any case, I am happy to see that you are consistent and put everything in shaimos.
Posted 5 years ago # -
cherrybim: It is unclear what Rav Moshe upheld regarding a cul de sac. I have heard arguments both ways. For whatever its worth, I believe that Rav Moshe would allow.
According to those opposing the eruv besides for cul de sacs there are no other streets that would be allowed according to Rav Moshe, hence there are no other streets to omit from the boundaries of the eruv.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Everyone Here Knows That an Eruv Shouldn't Be Used So therefore I think this thread Should Be Officially Closed
EDITED to remove the bold and italics. The moderators panel will decide if and when a thread gets closed. if you choose to agree, fine, if not, oh well.
Posted 5 years ago # -
HIE...no- I will continue using the eruv even when this thread is closed. As I said before...this thread will not change anyones opinions.I will continue to follow my rav forever....
Posted 5 years ago # -
HIE, what you should have written was "Everyone should consult their own local orthodox Rabbi as to what to do."
Posted 5 years ago # -
sjsinnyc, if you wish i'll say that Everybody should consult with their own rav and not pasken from the CR
Posted 5 years ago # -
HIE, that's a good statement. It gets my approval.
Posted 5 years ago # -
thanks
Posted 5 years ago #
Topic Closed
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