Now we can have the thread closed!!!
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Eruv in Brooklyn
(328 posts)-
Posted 5 years ago #
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If this thread continues to be strung much longer, it will encompass an area greater than 12 mil square, making it posul.
On the other hand, since according to the Rambam, to be a valid tzuras hapesach, there has to be less than 10 amos between the posts, and since neither side is giving the other as much as a tefach, it may still be kosher.
The machriah should be that, even if YWN site is a reshus horabim, and although the total number of comments may go up to 600,000, the people writing them remain small in number.
I hereby proclaim that you may not rely upon the eruv of under the halachic guidelines as set forth by sammygol and that posting in the CR during Shabbos is still not allowed. Posted on behalf of the CR Moderation Panel
Posted 5 years ago # -
I am not debating hilchos eruvin with you. I am not denying your right to carry to to your hearys content on shabbos. I am not denying your right to disagree with R' Dovid Feinstein. I take issue with the fact that you imply that R' David is basicly playing politics and is not interested in facts.
Posted 5 years ago # -
smartcookie: What are you scared of that you want this thread closed?
Posted 5 years ago # -
sammygol: Very funny. Just one point, the fact that Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos would make any eruv included therein a Rambam eruv.
Posted 5 years ago # -
When it is already Shabbos in NYC, it is still daylight farther West, for real.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Chill out Sammy. The mod was kidding, not c'v accusing you of being a mechallel Shabbos.
Posted 5 years ago # -
jphone: You miss my point. I am not disagreeing with Rav Dovid shlita at all. I am only arguing that Rav Dovid wants the eruv issue to stay as is notwithstanding the mechitzos and population issue. It’s not that Rav Dovid is playing politics c”v, only that he is of the opinion that his fathers p’sak does not change no matter what the facts are. Moreover, if anything its Rav Tuvia Goldstein zt”l who disagrees with Rav Dovid, not me.
Posted 5 years ago # -
DAVID 1999: oh, I really don't care if the thread is open.
At first I wanted it closed bec the comments here were not too polite. But now I was just kidding, once HIE admitted that we should all do according to our daas torah, I said- now we can finally have the thread closed!! In other words, we have accomplished our goal!!Posted 5 years ago # -
smartcookie, i am admitting because of all you rascles over here who don't know halacha
Posted 5 years ago # -
HIC - I am still wating for answers to my arguments aginst your claims, such as: show me one posek who argues that Ocean Parkway is the issue. Please state some information regarding the sefer Shomrei Mitzvos
Posted 5 years ago # -
Are you R' Tuvia Goldstiens mouthpiece any more than i am R' Dovids?
I didnt think so.
If R' Dovid says no, for me its no, if that is how my own Rav would pasken, if i would ask him a shaayla. If my rav would say yes, despite a no from R' Dovid, then that is how i would do. I respect my rav erudition and follow his psak. I respect his time and his dignity by not second guessing every psak with questions about others who may have issued different rulings.
If R' Tuvias talmidim want to carry on shabbos within this eruv, so be it. If R' Dovids dont, so be it.
I find it rather offensive, and affront to kavod hatorah (the torah, not an individual), that either side has to send mailings specifically knocking the other side.
Who was it who said that a machlokes between gedolim is one thing, but when the hamon am gets involved it goes from lishaym shamayim, to chillul hashem?
Posted 5 years ago # -
all you rascles over here who don't know halacha
Actually, you've shown that YOU don't know halacha with your false claim that abuse of an eruv by some invalidates it for all.
Unless, of course, you can quote me a better source than a sefer with no known author that may or may not exist.
The Wolf
Posted 5 years ago # -
You are changing your argument. When I stated that Rav Tuvia zt”l disagreed with Rav Dovid shlita, I was only answering your claim that Rav Moshe zt”l’s opinion should not be debated because we can ask Rav Dovid about his fathers opinion. Please stop vacillating between the two distinct arguments, that Rav Moshe would still oppose an eruv and that one should just follow his own rav.
As long as you are consistent and throw out both the literature opposed to and supporting the eruv, I have no qualms with you. However, most people, as evident from the tone in this post, only read the literature of the opposing side. Some of the statements made in this thread declared that one mustn’t carry because this is the accepted halachic opinion. What happened to, “everyone should just follow his own rav’s opinion”? I believe that when the inyan is eruvin many people believe that one has to follow the opinion of those whom they crowned as a gadol and not just an ordinary rav. This is why the rabbanim who support the eruv needed a campaign to educate the public that there are many reasons to allow an eruv (even for their own constituents).
Posted 5 years ago # -
"Please stop vacillating between the two distinct arguments, that Rav Moshe would still oppose an eruv"
I'm not. I keep making one point and other points keep getting brought up. Regarding THIS SPECIFIC POINT. Nobody knows what Rav Moshe would say today, because he is not around to ask. Unfortunately for us, he is dead. My argument as to who would be the most authorative person to tell us what he would say today is his closest talmidim, and in this case, that talmid happens to be his son, R' Dovid. therefore, I am arguing that if anyone has a "right" to claim what R" Moshe would say today, it is R" Dovid.
Posted 5 years ago # -
"I believe that when the inyan is eruvin many people believe that one has to follow the opinion of those whom they crowned as a gadol and not just an ordinary rav. This is why the rabbanim who support the eruv needed a campaign to educate the public that there are many reasons to allow an eruv (even for their own constituents)."
Regarding this issue. Who had to be educated? Those who followed the minhagim of Yeshiva "X" certainly knew the psak of that yeshiva, same for those who followed Rav "X" as well as those who followed "Rebbe" X.
If it was targeted at the thugs who kept pulling down the eruv, then mass mailings to entire neighborhoods, in the hopes that some of the thugs would get the mail, was a poor strategy.
Posted 5 years ago # -
There is no doubt that what you accused me of in your last comment was a change of argument. However, I will leave this issue alone. I disagree. Rav Tuvia knew Rav Moshe’s shitos in eruvin better than all. He spoke to Rav Moshe regarding this issue on numerous occasions. Rav Tuvia even discussed the Manhattan eruv with Rav Moshe in 1962. Don’t forget that Rav Tuvia lived upstairs from Rav Moshe and Rav Moshe used to discuss many halachic issues with him particularly regarding the opinion of the Achronim. Moreover, many considered Rav Tuvia a Talmid/Chaver of Rav Moshe.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Everyone had to be educated including those whose rabbanim supported the eruv. Moreover, since the campaign against the eruv started in 1979 people became accustomed to the claim that there was no heter in the world to allow an eruv in Brooklyn. It was not just some thugs who needed this education. In any case, why do you think the anti-eruv group needed to disseminate their literature?
Posted 5 years ago # -
Regarding your 1st point. You or your Rebbe is (i am guessing) a talmid of r" tuvia goldstein. Neither i, or my rav are. That you are sticking up for his shitta is great. On the other hand, R' Dovid, was just as close to his father as R' Tuvia, and discussed his shittos with him as well. If you are saying that it is a machlokes between the 2 what r' moshes opinion would be today, fine.
Regarding the 2nd matter. You dont see anything wrong with unsigned mass mailing that makes claims about hilchos eruvin and what rabbonim who are no longer alive would say? The mailings for and against the eruv were so stupid (i really cant come up with a better word that is appropriate) that i wanted to throw it all in the garbage.
Posted 5 years ago # -
That was my point. Rav Tuvia disagreed with Rav Dovid. However, Rav Tuvia knew anecdotes regarding Rav Moshe zt”l and the Manhattan and Flatbush eruv that no one was privy to including Rav Dovid. Rav Tuvia had extensive discussions with Rav Moshe regarding eruvin since he disagreed with his shitos.
If you were to argue that the anti-eruv booklet was asinine I would understand you since it was basically a picture booklet. However, what can possibly be wrong with the kuntres supporting the eruv which included all the halachic issues and illuminated all the sources? You can follow all the sources and arrive at your own conclusions. I suspect you did not even look at the kuntres since it did mention rabbanim who were alive.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Just to note, R' Tuvia himself, while he disagreed with R' Moshe zt"l, did not use the eruv, out of respect for R' Moshe.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Feif Un - That’s hearsay.
Posted 5 years ago # -
what should i do? My father goes by the eruv 9we live in Flatbush) and my mother doesn't.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Aaahhh!! This thread brings back some memories!
Posted 4 years ago # -
What's the shailah, brother?
Shma beni, mussar avicha,
V'al titosh toras emecha.Is poppa saying its a MUST to carry? Or is he just giving you the green light to do so if you want to?
Is momma saying you CANT? Or just that she feels uncomfortable doing so?
Once you know the answer to this, the solution should be clear as day
Posted 4 years ago # -
Is poppa saying its a MUST to carry?
I didn't post anything on this whole thread.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Nu, so do you? (if so, please specify if its the BP or Flatbush eruv)
Posted 4 years ago # -
Well you have two choices. You can either ask bpt or your LOR. Personally, I suggest bpt since I know him better so I can vouch for his good intentions.
Posted 4 years ago # -
we live in Flatbush & no, we don't hold from it.
in fact, this came up 2 Shabbosim ago, when my son-in-law (orig. from BP) carried his tallis to shul... my DH asked him if he knows if the flag is green.Posted 4 years ago # -
bpt i think both my parents are okay with me going against their opinion even though they probably will get offended a little. It's the flatbush eruv....so i should go by it for sure?
Posted 4 years ago # -
brotherofurs, why are you asking halachic advice here? I have some advice for you. I have a great investment opportunity I advise you to invest in. Here are the details:
I have a large amount of money in Nigeria. It is $10,000,000. I can't get it out because I need to bribe the officials there to release it. If you send me $5,000 now for the bribe, I will give you $1,000,000 when I get the full amount.Posted 4 years ago # -
huh? nevermind then
Posted 4 years ago # -
Huh? What do you mean "going against the opinion of both parents".. I thought your father is OK with the eruv?
Regardless, what is SO important that you need to carry, if you run the risk of upsetting your mother? (Unless you're married, and in that case, its your husbands call.)
Posted 4 years ago # -
brotherofurs,
Assuming your father's Rav allows the eruv, I recommend not discounting the eruv, even if you choose not to use it. There may be a time in your life where you want to use it and if you denounce it, you won't be able to.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Just another reason I'm glad we don't live in Brooklyn. R'Moshe said our eruv is kosher. There's a phone number to check on its status erev Shabbos (and with this year's weird weather, that's been necessary - after all, we're talking about thin wires). When in Brooklyn for Shabbos, we do not use the eruv.
Posted 4 years ago # -
so i was thinking just not to carry because it's not so hard not to. but sjsinnyc now i'm scared... but it doesn't matter, how often does it happen that someone NEEDS to carry?
Posted 4 years ago # -
I thought the orignal psak had to do with a study they did with the MTA counting cars on Ocean Parkway and foot traffic. They determined Brooklyn has too many travelers for a kosher eruv.
Posted 4 years ago # -
jonas,
If that *was* the reason for disqualifying an eruv in Brooklyn, then the psak can be ignored. Ocean Parkway is used by fewer than 70,000 vehicles a day, which in no way can result in the 600,000 individuals needed to disqualify an eruv. In fact, it can't handle 600,000 even in theory, as the maximum capacity of a single highway lane is approximately 40,000 vehicles a day and that assumes no traffic lights, no backups, and peak flow for 24 hours a day.
Posted 4 years ago # -
then the psak can be ignored.
charlie: You're overruling Rav Moshe?
Posted 4 years ago # -
charlie: You're overruling Rav Moshe?
If the ruling is dependent on X number of people being present and there aren't that number present, then saying that the ruling no longer applies is not overruling Rav Moshe.
Overruling him would be saying "even if X people are present the p'sak can be ignored."
The Wolf (who understands the meaning of the word "if")
Posted 4 years ago # -
If Rav Moshe clearly assumed a clearly incorrect fact, then presumably we could ignore the psak.
However, I am not aware that any of the 11 reasons which were brought to argue with him at the time, and which he answers in Igros moshe, OC 5:28, were that his facts were wrong.As it happens, it had to do with the total number of people living in Brooklyn, since he held that if there were usually 600k people on all the city's streets combined, during times that people are in the streets, then the whole city is a R"H.
But, I am sure this thread has discussed that, and I am no expert on this at all. I just started reading his teshuvos 5 minutes ago.
Posted 4 years ago # -
brotherofurs,
When you are young and single, living at home, there is little need to carry.
But if you move out on your own, or get married and have kids, its a lot harder not to use the eruv.
If your family Rav says mutar, there is no need to assur the eruv for you. You can choose not to carry normally within the eruv without great need (which in your stage is rare).
But its a lot harder to go back.
Posted 4 years ago # -
There is a famous blog that talks about eruv and discusses the whole issue in great detail. I'm sure if you google any eruv related arguments you'll come across that blog and you can get all the answers there.
Posted 4 years ago # -
The solution in another boro, that has a main thoroughfare running right down the middle of it, is that every year they close the street for x amount of time. As I understand it, it's generally done on a Sunday morning when it's not going to inconvenience too many people. This was R'Moshe's solution. The eruv is recognized universally as being kosher.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Rav Moshe and Rav Belsky both paskened that the eruv in brooklyn is assur. What else is thier to talk about?
Posted 4 years ago # -
I'm just a bachur but I am very interested in eruvin. One thing I have learned it is among the most complicated sugyos in all of halacha. I heard in a shiur from Rav Moshe Dov Stein Ztz"l (an expert in eruvin,Posek In sheor yosuv) that the three hardest masechtos in shas are eruvim, yevamos and nidda.
No person in their right mind should insert their opinions on this sugyah at least until they learn the ENTIRE sugya BIYUN-shas, tur shulchan aruch rishonim achronim -at least a year in full time beis medrash.
you wouldn't state opinions as though you are knowlegable in pysics cemistry or other secular subjects until you studyed them thouruly so why are people willing to argue on gedolei poskim-even rishonim!! when they realy have almost no clue what they are talking about.
there are many things i have seen on this thread where people have written things as if they are a dovar pashut, while realy they are a machlokes rishonim or achronimPosted 4 years ago # -
YFRBachur-way to go!!!!!!
Posted 4 years ago # -
There are plenty of Rabbonim who allow it so there is no clear answer.
Posted 4 years ago # -
There are plenty of Rabbonim who allow it so there is no clear answer.
I don't think we can say there is no clear answer.
The ones who assur it are far greater than the ones who allow it. Nobody should use it. Even if their personal rav allows it, they should be machmir like Rav Moshe, since he was so much greater, and felt so strongly.Posted 4 years ago # -
I like when the argument gets to be about who is greater. And since no one can compare to Rav Moshe nobody elses opinion matters. The fact is there are Rabbonim who can argue on Rav Moshe. Also, if I told you that according to Chazon Ish eruv should be fine, does that mean I should tell you not to listen to anyone else?
Posted 4 years ago #
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