I remember learning in halacha that a Ger disowns his pre-conversion family. That he may no longer maintain contact with them and they are no longer considered his parents/family.
Does anyone know how this is applicable today to a newly converted person?
I know plenty of Gerrim who are still quite close to their pre-conversion families. (And a few who are not)
As long as people can have clear boundaries and respect one another it can work quite well.
I know several geirim; all have maintained ties with their "pre-conversion" families.
"I remember learning in halacha that a Ger disowns his pre-conversion family"
This is false, In fact Ger(s) are required to “honour your Mother and Father,...this obligation still remains, even more so since it is directly from the Torah, which they have now embraced.
Mike: That obligation certainly does not apply to a Ger's parents. The OP is correct. They are not halachicly his parents. M'ikur hadin he can even marry his "mother".
"Does anyone know how this is applicable today to a newly converted person?"
No.
"M'ikur hadin he can even marry his "mother"."
Not true, all forbidden relations as a Noachide are at least rabbinically forbidden once one becomes a ger.
M'ikur hadin he can even marry his "mother".
By the same token, m'ikur hadin you can have your chicken with milk.
The Wolf
Charlie: I meant if both convert to Judaism, m'ikur hadin the son can marry his birth mother.
I remember learning in halacha that a Ger disowns his pre-conversion family. That he may no longer maintain contact with them and they are no longer considered his parents/family.
That's probably something you read, but it's not what a rabbi will probably say.
I'm not a rabbi, so I'm not going to paskun, but I've been told by my rabbi & shown the source(which I forgot now), that while a ger isn't considered a part of his old family, he still doesn't have to mention that or break contact with them. This was a decision made with something to do with inheritance issues. Just ask a rabbi to explain it.
Pac-Man...From a spiritual sense you are correct, but I have heard that from a physical perspective there is still an obligation to honour the parents, especially if they have been supportive of the conversion. Of course, I’m sure this varies according which Rabbi/background you are from (Ortho of course)....
If someone can talk from their personal experience, with regards to what the Rabbi's told You, that would shed some light...
Not true, all forbidden relations as a Noachide are at least rabbinically forbidden once one becomes a ger.
what about being shomer negiah, also L'Halacha are they considered his/her parents
PAC- from what you are saying it would sound like he cannot act towards his mother as a mother but she becomes a strange women to him like anyone else. she cannot sing in front of him....they cannot touch...is that true?
adorable: Al pi halacha, that is true.
omg that is so scary. is there any way to get around that- like what if the parents are very accepting of everything but the mother cannot deal with that
No way around it. (Unless he marries her.)
adorable...please ask an Ortho Rabbi, not someone from the Coffee Room...with all do respect to all here...
im sure adorable will ask a shaila of an appropriate person if the situation arises.
Halachic discussions are permitted and encouraged here.
mike- are you serious?!?!!? I do not plan on using this info in real life as I am not a ger or dont know ppl personally who are so whats wrong with me just asking? if you have an issue with it get out of this thread
PAC- from what you are saying it would sound like he cannot act towards his mother as a mother but she becomes a strange women to him like anyone else. she cannot sing in front of him....they cannot touch...is that true?
and
No way around it. (Unless he marries her.)
Rabbi Zef Leff disagrees with you. In the audio link below, he states that because they are still physically related, a convert is allowed to engage in yichud with his parents/grandparents/children and is allowed to touch them (including hugging and kissing).
http://www.rabbileff.net/shiurim/answers/1250-1499/1372.mp3
The Wolf
Does this Rabbi maintain that position if the parents are non-Jewish or only if they converted?
Does this Rabbi maintain that position if the parents are non-Jewish or only if they converted?
The question was:
"How, exactly, does one relate to his non-Jewish family after conversion?"
Furthermore, R. Leff says in his answer that they would be allowed to have physical contact as if they were Jewish relatives. Obviously, that indicates that the relatives are still non-Jews.
The Wolf
adorable...very serious actually...you are the one that said OMG this is so scary...such a reaction looks to me like it is very personal and you are looking for an Halachic answer...so yes, I'm serious...
Had you said, that's interesting, please tell me more I’m interested, then I would have remained silent....fair enough.
Lastly, as you can see from the Wolf's comments, there are different approaches to your question, Pac Man as far as I know does not have an authoritative voice in this matter....besides I thought he would be too tires from fasting today and wearing his sak cloth o give a proper answer :)
this Rabbi
Interesting choice of words to use...
The Wolf
"This Rabbi"is very highly regarded by many...
PAC
from what you are saying, Lets say a man was not religious and married a GOY and had a daughter.
He then decided to be a BT and divorce his wife .
Are you saying he cannot hug his daughter, Just because she isnt jewish doesnt mean she isnt his daughter
From everything I have read in seforim or been told personally by my Rav, a Ger does not have to disown his or her pre-conversion family. In fact, when a non-Jewish family member dies, the ger may sit shiva for them (but is in no way halachically obligated to do so). There is no prohibition against yichud or negiah with one's non-Jewish siblings, parents, or grandparents.
The pre-conversion family is no longer one's halachic family, but that does not mean that a ger could marry his mother or sister. I was told that such a relationship is forbidden on the grounds that we should not be able to say that the Torah sanctions immorality.
Just because she isnt jewish doesnt mean she isnt his daughter
this is your Halachic opinion based on your knowledge of the sources, or Shiurim youve attended, or conversations youve had with Talmidei Chochomim?
or it just feels right?
personally i dont know the Halacha and the only point i intended to make is that such matters are matters of Law and not matters of the heart.
Mod-If anybody on the "outside" reads this thread it could be a chillul H-shem- I don't know what your guidelines are but I figured it's worth mentioning.
thank you
you have a point
but this thread is not going to be closed at this time
a Ger disowns his pre-conversion family
AFAIK, not true (actually, it sounds ludicrous to me), although halachically, mid'oraisa they are not related.
As far as honoring parents, IIRC, they should be honored because of darchei shalom and chillul Hashem.
Concerning as marrying them, IIRC, prohibited mid'rabonon (which is still mei'ikor hadin).
Regarding physical contact/yichud, I believe Rav Leff's reasoning would be that there is no concern of it leading to an aveirah. This is the reasoning that a person is allowed to have yichud with a parent, although the parent is most definitely an ervah. (This issue is also relevant to an adopted child, although I seem to recall that the issue there is more complex.)
Gerim do not have to disown their families. They are, however considered a the children of Avraham Avinu and Sara Imenu instead of their natural parents. It is about their halachic status and not about the family relationship. Since my geirus I've had to ask shailos regarding issues with my family. I've always recieved the psak I should be as accommodating as possible without violating halacha. In situations where keeping halacha puts me at an impasse with them, I should politely and respectfully explain why I can't budge on the issue. It can be very challenging, like walking a tightrope. One one hand , you have to try as hard as possible to not to create a chillul Hash-m, or cause hurt feelings and to show hakarat ha tov to the people who raised you. One on the other hand, you have to make sure to never to compromise halacha in doing so and also to protect your Jewish family (spouse and children) from negative influences when you have to interact with non-Jewish relatives._
ashmorris613,..your explanation is along the same lines that I have heard from other rabbonim...
I have never heard a Rabbi say you have to disown them...
That is why I have an "raised" eyebrow with Pac Man on this...
Pac-Man,
Your lack of response here is noted.
The Wolf
I believe that anyone with a bit of seichel will tell you to act cordially to them. I believe the halachic issue raised here is the gemara that states that a ger is kikotton she'nolad dummi. which means he has no halachic relationship to his family. ask a lor
Wolf:
Are you sure you are on the correct thread? You presented no question to me.
Regarding what you found interesting, do I get a citation for your nitpicking notation? What, pray tell, did you read into that?
Rabbi Berkowitz from E. Isroel allowed a Jewish girl to have yichud with her Gentile father. I think the reason is that since they are biologically related, "ein itzram mesgaber aleihem".
Are you sure you are on the correct thread? You presented no question to me.
Usually, when one rebuts your argument, you either counter or retract. I rebutted your statement with a statement from R. Leff saying that it is permitted. You did not counter nor admit that you were wrong.
What, pray tell, did you read into that?
A lack of respect. I would never call a Rav you respect "that Rabbi."
The Wolf
Don't read between the lines to see what was not said.
You brought a different opinion. I am not here to pasken, I just cited a law, although I don't have the citation at the moment.
This is another one of those threads where joseph asks a question and answers it himself.
This is also a thread where joseph claims to bring halacha without bringing in any sources whatsoever.
"This is also a thread where joseph claims to bring halacha without bringing in any sources whatsoever."
could not agree more...
so is pacman joseph? mods can you spill the beans pls!
ain bishul acher bishul
no one has a chiyuv to annotate his post with sources
if one wants to, fine.
if you are so interested in sources and disproving someone you are welcome to do the research yourself.
I had a great-uncle who married a non-Jew and one of their children converted in his mid-20s. Aside from the fact that he most certainly kept up a relationship with his parents, there were some interesting tidbits- like, halachically, his Jewish father was no longer considered his father. When he died, this cousin did not sit shiva or tear kriah b/c there was no obligation to do so. He did, however, say kaddish because his father was still a Jew who needed someone to say kaddish for him.
And if you want to delete a board joseph has been trying to start for about half a year, you can. Check the deleted topics archives and see what i mean. Which name did he use then?
so is pacman joseph? mods can you spill the beans pls!
The mods are the ones who give subtitles.
Is there not a proscription against being friends with an akum? Is a ger's blood relatives excluded from that?
what happens if a parent has a child who converts...therefore he is now considered "parentless"
then later on, the parents convert...are they now deemed parent and child again?
so is pacman joseph? mods can you spill the beans pls!
Look at his subtitle. It's not a secret. The bigger question is if Master is Joseph too.
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