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241. dovid_yehuda
     Member

     " If you saw a yeshiva bachur dressed in uniform but doing something wrong, would you say its the uniform or their actions that are wrong?"

     I think the point of the article was that it was a Kiddush Hashem because of how they were dressed they were easily recognizable as Jews. If they were dressed like everyone else, unrecognized as Jews, then they would be perceived as decent individuals, not too shabby, but not a Kiddush Hashem.

     Posted 10 months ago #

242. oomis1105
     Member

     And again, if they were merely wearing YARMULKAS and not hats and suits, they would have ALSO been recognizable as religious Jews. There are many different ways by which we are recognizable. In truth it is really the girls who need "the uniform" more than the boys. If a boy has on his kippah and tzitzis, no one will mistake him for anything else.

     Posted 10 months ago #

243. SJSinNYC
     Member

     Dovid_yehuda, if they were wearing kippot, they would have been easily recognizable also.

     However, the ultimate point is that their ACTIONS is what made the kiddush hashem, but the clothing made them identifiable. They ACTIONS could have made a chillul hashem also (not in this situation, just hypothetically).

     I still think someone in the Bronx Zoo when its 90 degrees out looks ridiculous.
     I also think women in pointy shoes look ridiculous.
     Plenty of people think I am ridiculous in the winter when I don't wear a coat.

     However, the women in pointy shoes don't think they are better people for wearing the shoes nor do I for not wearing a coat. The argument in this thread was turning towards "only don't wear yeshivish dress if you want to emulate the goyim" which is the MOST ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

     Posted 10 months ago #

244. dovid_yehuda
     Member

     A Jew must be recognizable for Kiddush Hashem to occur, it is the recognition linked with the action which creates the KH. Yes, it is posssible wearing a kippa could also do this, but not as obviously as black suit and hat. Why quibble?

     I am saddened to read that you think a Jew dressed in a black suit and hat "in the Bronx Zoo when its 90 degrees out looks ridiculous".

     Posted 10 months ago #

245. flatbush27
     Blocked

     if they were only wearing yarmulkas they may not have been recognized as yeshiva bochurim because a black or dark blue yarmulka is not so easy to see on someones head especially during a blizzard. what is much more distinguishable is a black hat which is just pain easier to see in a blizzard.

     Posted 10 months ago #

246. flatbush27
     Blocked

     'someone in the Bronx Zoo when its 90 degrees out looks ridiculous."

     looks ridiculus to who? its shameful to hear that you are embarrassed of your own people for wearing the accepted garb for Torah learned individuals. you should be more embarrassed of how people in the Upper West Side, Teaneck and the 5 towns dress in 90 degree heat. the way some of these people dress in the summer makes them undistinguishable from the shaigitzis and shiksas around them. thats shameful and something to be embarassed of.

     Posted 10 months ago #

247. gavra_at_work
     Member

     flatbush27: :-)?

     Posted 10 months ago #

248. areivimzehlazeh
     Member

     dovid_yehuda- 2 thumbs up! for expressing exactly what I wanted to say in your past 2 posts. Shkoyach- and may you always be a defender of Hashem and what He expects from His chosen nation

     Posted 10 months ago #

249. oomis1105
     Member

     2 points to you. Though I would tend to wonder exactly how well a hat of that type would stay upon one's head, during an actual blizzard, while someone was using both hands to try to help a motorist with his car. In that case, a yarmulke would be as readily visible and a lot more securely in place. Truthfully, it would be visible anyway, as the people were right there in the same space with the boys, even were there not a blizzard at the moment. What is the difference. They were frum boys, they made a Kiddush Hashem, and that's all that matters.

     Posted 10 months ago #

250. SJSinNYC
     Member

     Honestly, I am more sad that there are people who take something as insignificant in halacha as a black suit, white shirt and black hat and make them out to be the ikkur. There is NO inyan to wear those clothing, especially in the hot sun. So yes, I think wearing a suit and black hat to the zoo is ridiculous. I would also think the same about someone wearing a ball gown at the zoo or even a bathing suit. That is not someone who is standing up for ratzon Hashem - that is someone who is following an unecessary uniform in a place that doesnt warrant it.

     If someone is making a FASHION statement, I look at it as such. Its a shame people don't put more stock on the inside, rather than what is on the outside.

     Posted 10 months ago #

251. SJSinNYC
     Member

     Flatbush, people who don't dress tzanua are a different topic altogether. And don't think that its confined to the three communities you chose to mention - there are plenty of people who don't dress appropriately in other communities. No one is perfect, but they arent professing that they are better than anyone.

     As to who they look ridiculous to? ME. They look hot and sweaty FOR NO REASON. Yes, to me that is ridiculous. I also think when women wear pointy shoes (100% accepted in todays society) that they look stupid. Plenty of very frum women wear them - does that mean thats what I should be wearing? I am not sure why you are so offended by the fact that I don't believe in following non-sensical fashion statements, especially when you attacked those who DON'T wear this clothing.

     Are you trying to say that people who don't wear "the accepted garb for Torah learned individuals" are not Torah learned people?

     I have the utmost respect for people who wear kippot and tzitzit, as that is a sign of keeping Torah and mitzvot. Not someone wearing a black hat (especially when it has nothing to do with davening).

     Posted 10 months ago #

252. areivimzehlazeh
     Member

     SJS- what's eating you? Why are you so against it? It's one thing to say you don't HAVE to wear it, but another to dafka dislike and be against yeshivish/chassidish livush.

     I would understand your position if you told me the yeshivish guy at the zoo was wearing his black hat & jacket and was acting inappropriately. Then I can hear your argument about what is & what isn't important. But to despise the livush in and of itself simply boggles the mind.

     I try to be open minded and hear where you’re coming from, but I can’t seem to understand how you’ve come to such a point of almost self hatred… because talking with such vehemence against another jew’s livush is talking against yourself! We are an Am Echad… or, we’re supposed to be anyway

     Posted 10 months ago #

253. gavra_at_work
     Member

     areivimzehlazeh:

     At this point the "discussion" is over because its now PERSONAL.

     "especially when you attacked those who DON'T wear this clothing"

     I'm not mekabel what anyone says about any community and neither should anyone else.

     Mods: Please close the thread.

     Posted 10 months ago #

254. SJSinNYC
     Member

     Areivim, please don't misunderstand me. Anyone can wear anything that they want. But when its a fashion decision, why can't I think it looks stupid? No one seems to care that I think pointy shoes on women are stupid...why should a hat/jacket be any difference? I never said "Oh they shouldn't wear it."

     The ONLY thing that bothers me is that people start attributing this fashion statement to religious observance and that bothers me.

     GAW, when I said that I was refering to one person in this thread who did say that.

     Posted 10 months ago #

255. areivimzehlazeh
     Member

     gavra- I hope you're not implying that I created this "personal" tone??
     yes- flatbush27- it was very wrong to specify communities. How will you ask all those people for forgiveness? You are somewhat lucky that most of us here are not mikabel what was said.

     I agree this thread should be closed. It has turned into a spiteful and personal argument; with insults flying left right & center. It hurts to read the posts here

     Posted 10 months ago #

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