Hatzola

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  • #600808

    Is it ok for a women to be on a hatzalah team? You could run into many assurim..but at the same time could be saving peoples lives..?? plus many women dont feel comfortable with men helping then if there could be a women to do it??

  • #932479

    real-brisker
    Member

    Why do you ask? Is it that you want to join? Is it that you know of its existence and you feel that it is a problem. Or is it that you are trying to start these threads that will turn into big arguments [like the other threads you started].

  • #932480

    Toi
    Member

    or that youve read several articles about gedolim saying its not ok and you want to stir this up?

  • #932481

    TheGoq
    Participant

    RB +1, his name should be CoreyDrayaKup

  • #932482

    iBump
    Member

    coreytothecup:

    you really have started a lot of… um…interesting threads for a poster who has only been here one week….why?

    🙂 Bump 🙂

  • #932483

    Let’s hijack this thread and talk about why (s)he started it. It’s defiantly more interesting and less controversial.

  • #932484

    real-brisker
    Member

    onegoal, iBump, The Goq, Toi: +1

  • #932485

    bezalel
    Participant

    Good idea. Lets talk about how the OP has already started 11 threads and only responded to 1 other thread.

  • #932486

    Shrek
    Member

    what’s the problem?

    if there’s a medical emergency & a woman can be of assistance…she shouldn’t help out?

  • #932487

    hold on……. I really cant belive people are talking about another jew this way!!!! its really a shock that some people really feel this way about another yid…enough isnt happening in the world around us that you hav to start bashing another yid on YW ???

    WHY WOULD I EVER POST SOMETHING THATS NOT A REAL CONCERN..I have a life beyond YWCR and only ask stuff that i see as a concern…..The only reason i have recently posted is bc a good freind of mine told me about YW as it has added alot of insight into what other ppl think about these topics….

    I will not hold anything against anyone when Yom Kippur comes bc i HAVE to belive you made a mistake! But we really have to fix this accusing other people espically frum yidden!!

  • #932488

    skiaddict
    Member

    Cmon there’s nothing wrong with the thread! I think women can be on Hatzola but only called in if they are needed, for example there has been lots of cases of hatzola having to deliver babies, and having an experienced midwife or even labour supporter on the team, would be very beneficial!

  • #932491

    real-brisker
    Member

    coreytothecup – It’s just interesting that all the threads you started so happen to be controversial questions.

    Joseph – “Good idea. Lets talk about how the OP has already started 11 threads and only responded to 1 other thread.”

    I had the same haurah.

  • #932493

    MichaelC
    Member

    Going off the topic, Rav Shach was asked wherever students in Ponevetz should join Hatzola. The Hatzola people tried to persuade him to let the Yeshiva boys join, giving a story that recently happened in Bnei Barak, where a little boy fell off the wall, and if not for Hatzola he would have not made it to the hospital in time. Rav Shach answered that if Hatzola weren’t there, the child would have got to the hospital another way, e.g. by a passerby or the child himself, and there is no need to have a Ponevetz yeshiva boy (or perhaps yeshiva boys) in general joining Hatzola, as when you are Oisek in Torah you are Potur from Mitzvos that other people can do.

    Those who say Rav Shach was a independent view need to read his statement that he was appointed as the Shomer of the generation by Rav Kotler (whom Rav Moshe Feinstein admitted was the man of Haskofa in that generation).

    So perhaps relating to this Shailo, i think it is a good idea that women join Hatzola (who don’t have a Chiyuv in any full time working or learning commitments), they would alleviate the problem of male Hatzola member’s dealing with females, perhaps if their were more women Hatzola members, boys would not leave Yeshiva and work in Hatzola.

    p.s. Rav Shach said a similar thing regard to Yeshiva boy who do Kiruv –he said for people in full time learning, Kiruv (to a significant extent) is Bitul Torah, as other people can do Kiruv.

  • #932494

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    Please, I beg, stop the bashing! I get sick in my stomach when I read these petty fights and false accusations. c’mon guys, for heaven’s sake! riboinoy shel oilam! What was the major lesson last week here in the CR??? Innocent until proven guilty!

    coreytothecup asked a perfectly legitimate question with no implied threats. I know of at least 3 women personally that needed hatzoloh and felt extremely uncomfortable and embarrassed when men SHE KNEW showed up. There are emergency situations that sometimes require sensitivity and concern beyond the actual call, and women volenteers would solve that issue. The OP began a thread which is perfectly fair and invites a peaceful hashkofic discussion as any other thread posted here. Let the MODS decide which posters are shady, that’s THEIR job. All you guys do by accusing others is stumbling on oinoas devorim etc. Please let us maintain our composure and if you don’t like a thread – stay away from it. May peace reign once again here in the CR.

  • #932496

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Thank you for the Mussar Shmooze BH point taken, I’m sorry Corey.

  • #932497

    iBump
    Member

    coreytothecup:

    If you really are legit and mean these questions, then on behalf of myself and all the posters that accused you, we ( yes, im sure all of us really) are sorry.

    I do fell the need to explain myself though.

    In the past week or so we have had several posters come on just to make trouble and stir up machlokes( I scream u scream we all… and QTPie tr la la la la just to name a couple).

    Therefore, i hope you understand that we are not trying to be mean, we are just trying to preserve a nice atmosphere here, and trying to nip a prospective problem in the bud. Again, I’m not saying that you are a problem, but i hope you understand why we are all a little jumpy and quick to accuse.

    once again, if are a serious poster, i reiterate my (our) apology, and hope you didn’t take our comments to heart.

    I hope you accept my (our)apology and stick around as real poster.

    Thanks.

    🙂 Bump 🙂

  • #932498

    real-brisker
    Member

    iBump +1

  • #932500

    twisted
    Member

    there is a halchic directive not to appoint a woman to a positon of authority of the tzibbur, that may have influenced the status quo. There is also a necessary degree of comraderie in the working environment that would make a mix of genders more problematic than helpful. It was rumored that one of the Manhattan orgs had a woman among them. In my former service, most women were not averse to being helped by seasoned, mature people, but this was not in Booklyn, and the question is not without its merits.

  • #932501

    ajk
    Participant

    new square has a female team for female emergencies

  • #932502

    Health
    Participant

    ajk -“new square has a female team for female emergencies”

    The fact is that the other Hatzolas -eg. NYC, Lakewood and others won’t consider taking them. This isn’t MY opinion -I haven’t really given it much thought because it’s not reality. So Frum women who are uncomfortable with Frum male providers have three choices -either call Hatzolah & get over their uncomfortableness or call 911 or start another Frum First Aid Squad with women providers. I see no reason to even discuss it right now because the Hatzolas that don’t have it, aren’t going to start.

  • #932503

    farrockgrandma
    Participant

    There are many women with medical training – why not allow women to be first responders, to examine and stabilize a woman patient, and let the men take over for transport to the hospital?

  • #932504

    golden mom
    Member

    i think in the past there were some neighborhoods which had ladies on hatzolah if im correct it was queens and washington heights

  • #932505

    real-brisker
    Member

    Health – Don’t forget even if they call 911 they have a 50% chance on getting a male emt.

  • #932506

    real-brisker
    Member

    farrock – Leave it up to the rabonim. They obviously feel for whatever reasons it is not something to be done.

  • #932507

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There are many women with medical training – why not allow women to be first responders, to examine and stabilize a woman patient, and let the men take over for transport to the hospital?

    Your premise is that women don’t know how to drive, and that is the problem?

  • #932508

    essy8
    Member

    we have gedolim for a reason. hatzola has been selflessly and perfectly providing for the community for years going solely on advice from their core group of rabbonim. no radio talk show host, council member, (or coffeeroom comment 🙂 ) will make a difference because this is not some political program trying to gain public approval.

    its a frum chessed organization, and as such it answers only to the knowledgeable and experienced rabbonim who head it. and thats how it should be, imho.

  • #932509

    yentingyenta
    Member

    2 things

    first of all, haven’t we been there done that on this topic already?

    second of all, i’ve met a few ppl in the med field including emt’s. emt’s who do it as a profession (ie 8 or 12 hour shifts) spend the time in a metal box with their partner. now i know hatzolah members don’t do that, the woman would be in VERY close proximity to the men if the men do the driving 1/2. just one example.

    and third of all (yes i know i can’t add) if this was really a good and shayach idea wouldn’t the hatzolah boards in dif cities have already asked their rabbanim if this was appropriate etc? i feel like ppl are paskenin s/t rabbanim have already decided

  • #932510

    essy8
    Member

    ajk – “new square…”

    all that shows is that the rabbonim they have behind them told them to make such a team available. i don’t know, but i would bet that the female team did not start with a few outspoken women going on radio shows and giving interviews with left wing newspapers and petitioning and suing the rabbinical board to allow them to form a team. yeah, i kinda doubt that…

  • #932511

    farrockgrandma
    Participant

    Your premise is that women don’t know how to drive, and that is the problem?

    – – no, my premise is the concern for women working with men in close quarters, and traveling together in the small ambulance back and forth to the hospital. At the same time, the patients are more sensitive to who examines them. In all seriousness, this may work. A call goes out, woman or girl patient, a woman with medical training goes to the scene (of course whichever EMT arrives first will begin the evaluation) and after the exam and the patient is loaded to the ambulance, the woman EMT can leave.

    Also, if we are concerned that the ambulance crew may hesitate to take a call on Shabbos if they are not going to return home, shouldn’t we also be concerned that a woman may not want to call Hatzala if she will be treated and examined by men? This is a very real situation. I know at least one young mother, with a high-risk pregnancy, and travelling from the Rockaways to a Manhattan hospital, who said if she went into labor on YomTov she planned to call a car service rather than Hatzala.

  • #932512

    2scents
    Participant

    One Reason on why Women are not permitted into Hatzolah is because although a female patient might feel uncomfortable when the emergency medical provider is a male.

    however having a woman on the rescue team brings a lot of problems for the male members on the team. which includes problems like yichud. or problems of mingling.

    this is something which the New Square Hatzolah must deal with and are having ‘problems’ with.

    The rabonim and the coordinators know about this. and therefore will not permit Hatzolah to become a mixed organization.

  • #932513

    mewho
    Member

    farrock, i am very sorry to say that if this high risk pregnancy mom is putting her life and the life of her unborn child at risk going by car service to manhattan rather than calling hatzola she needs to seek some other kind of help as well.

    to have someone with an at risk pregnancy in a car service that can get stuck in traffic and/or break down and have NO ONE with medical training to help her is a danger to both her and the child.if she is so obsessed with not having a male take care of her she should find someone near this manhattan hospital to put her up till she goes into labor…oh and hopefully the apt would be across the street from the hospital coz she stil might need assistance and g-d forbid a male 911 team comes to help.

    absolutely ridiculous!

  • #932514

    real-brisker
    Member

    farrock – I see you know little to nothing about Hatzolah. Your assumption that the only medical help that is required is at thee scene, and the rest from there on foward is just “a ride in lights and sirens to the hospital” is totaly wrong. The patient is required full attention the ENTIRE time, not just that, they many times even bring medics along with them to the hospital (even if nothing is going on), just in case anything will happen during the transport. Your whole basis is totaly off scale.

  • #932515

    Health
    Participant

    real-brisker -“Health – Don’t forget even if they call 911 they have a 50% chance on getting a male emt.”

    Male doesn’t seem to be the issue, but some Frum guy whom they are aquainted with -is. I think they just added on male provider as a secondary issue. While it’s true that some women don’t want to be treated by any male -most don’t care. The few that care realize that as much as they demand total female care in the hospital, which some hospitals will accommodate -it’s definitely not a guarantee that this will occur.

    The reality is – this is a non-issue because anything more than simple childbirth cannot occur/be treated in the pre-hospital arena. So why does the Frum community have so many childbirth related calls? Simple -because they are uneducated. Freier & company would accomplish much more by setting up an org. that educates women about childbirth and other related women issues. Then Hatzolah would have as many deliveries as other EMS – next to none! Look I knew s/o many years ago who wanted to be an EMT like her husband who was on Hatzolah. So since she couldn’t join Hatzolah -she joined some volly org. together with her hubby. Therefore all the Halachic problems were avoided. If these women want to practice EMS -I’m sure they could join some squad. Childbirth calls are probably just a red herring. Either that or these women are just as uneducated and think everybody doesn’t make it on time to the hospital.

  • #932516

    real-brisker
    Member

    Health – Maybe the reason 911 delivers so many less babies, is because non jews probally have about a 10th less children then a frum couple has.

  • #932517

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Health: I highly doubt it is because our community is uneducated on childbirth. Surely by the 10th or 11th time you are giving birth you must know something about the process.

    Especially if your mother also gave birth 10 times.

  • #932518

    Health
    Participant

    RB – Maybe you should change your name to Chochom from the Ma Nish

    Taneh? I actually was waiting for s/o to post what you wrote.

    I wonder how many people believe you?

    First of all, in the Goyishe non-white communities they also have a lot of kids. Second of all & the most important point, I’m not talking about percentages. Even if the percentage of Frum Jews being born is greater, no way are Frum Jews even close to any percent of the population. In other words, there are millions of them and not that many of us. So a lot more of them are being born each year. And how many of them are born pre-hospital? Not that many.

    And the next thing some Chochom will write is that they all plan their births. Another myth -some do, but again from the total amount of childbirths -it’s a small percentage.

    So RB, if you have kids -did your wife deliver at home?

  • #932519

    Health
    Participant

    PBA -Oh, they know something about it, but not when to go to the hospital and other medical aspects. And without education you don’t know that #10 CAN come quicker than #9, so you need to leave earlier than the last delivery.

  • #932520

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi coreytothecup.

    Good question and nothing wrong with wanting to know what people think about controversial issues or to come up with a question that you feel may get a reaction.

    I am not so sure if the problem really is women drivers as it may be they are bad with directions.

    But all seriousness aside, my thought is it would be the same as with women doctors with regards to how they can work and with whom they can have assist them, unless the gedolim say otherwise.

  • #932521

    yentingyenta
    Member

    health,”Then Hatzolah would have as many deliveries as other EMS – next to none!”

    just FYI, i know a frum EMT who works 911. ya right they get next to none. in a shift and a half, he was called to 9 (!) deliveries. yes i said 9. one set of twins IIRC. after the 9th his chief/head of ems in his area sent him and his partner home. he got off the rest of the week, his partner the end of the shift b/c it was only her third or something. (note, this was in BP).

    and if you live in a frum area there is a chance a frum man will show up when you call 911. no givens.

    and there is such a thing as precocious labor. not everyone has a few hour warning when to go to the hospital

  • #932522

    skiaddict
    Member

    Such rubbish that frum women are less educated about childbirth than non jewish ones.

    They go to the same doctors, get the same support- any woman that is pregnant jolly well educates herself on her pregnancy and childbirth, if she wasnt educated before. I dont know how you can say that!

  • #932523

    nitpicker
    Participant

    in the end though, it is up to the leaders of hatzoloh

    (which is after all a private volunteer organization)

    and their advisors (read: poskim).

  • #932524

    Nechomah
    Participant

    As a woman who almost had a baby at home and had her instead in an ambulance, I will say that education about childbirth had little to do with my experience. I have plenty of lay experience with childbirth – I took a labor class and had 4 previous normal births without coming close to delivering at home as well as 1 born via a cesarean section.

    My last baby decided that she had to be not only unpredictable, but in a hurry, unlike all of my other children. My labor began uneventfully and, like most women who don’t want to spend untold hours in the hospital waiting for the big event, I chose to labor at home as long as possible. I was fine until suddenly things changed and I had no way to get myself to the hospital without calling an ambulance. Actually surprisingly no Hatzola members came to my house, although I do know that 2 Rebbes in my sons’ cheder across the street are Hatzola members and came to assist at other non-childbirth related medical emergencies in my house. I had precious little time to get transportation to my house to get to the hospital and fortunately I called an ambulance because I made it less than 5 minutes away from my house before I delivered the baby almost without assistance, considering that the MDA staff who was there with me had not assisted in a birth before. Well, I guess HKBH really delivered that baby!

  • #932525

    real-brisker
    Member

    Health – Thanks for the subtitle idea. Please proove to me that there are more home deliveries amongst jews than by non-jews (percentage wise}.

  • #932526

    Health
    Participant

    RB – I tried to look up NY EMS statistics on this, but this detail about childbirth related calls aren’t on their webpage.

    You’ll just have to take my word for it -what I’ve seen over the years. EMS has very little home deliveries.

  • #932527

    Health
    Participant

    yenta -“ya right they get next to none. in a shift and a half, he was called to 9 (!) deliveries. yes i said 9. one set of twins IIRC. after the 9th his chief/head of ems in his area sent him and his partner home. he got off the rest of the week, his partner the end of the shift b/c it was only her third or something. (note, this was in BP).”

    You just proved my point -It was BP -they never get so many so they got OFF time. And it also proves Frier wrong -the women that don’t want to be treated by Frum Hatzolah men -will indeed call EMS! And don’t tell me all these calls were Goyim, because I won’t buy it.

    “and if you live in a frum area there is a chance a frum man will show up when you call 911. no givens.”

    And your point is? Calling Hatzolah -you have a zero chance of either a female or Goy (male) showing up.

    “and there is such a thing as precocious labor. not everyone has a few hour warning when to go to the hospital”

    Well thank you. Did you ever see this or are you just quoting your nursing textbook? Please tell us what the nursing book says about how common this is? From experience -it ain’t too common.

    Hold on -wait a sec. -it’s very common by the Frum community.

    The Frum Maidlach have different stats that e/o else. -NOT/FALSE!

    They just aren’t educated enough.

  • #932528

    Health
    Participant

    Nechomah -“As a woman who almost had a baby at home and had her instead in an ambulance, I will say that education about childbirth had little to do with my experience. I have plenty of lay experience with childbirth – I took a labor class and had 4 previous normal births without coming close to delivering at home as well as 1 born via a cesarean section.”

    Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure), please educate us when is the proper time to go to the hospital when you’re in labor! It could be you did everything right and still you couldn’t make it -so tell us when you are supposed to go!

  • #932529

    Health

    Member you wrote:

    “Nechomah –

    Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure), please educate us…”

    you also wrote:

    “RB – I tried to look up NY EMS statistics on this…

    You’ll just have to take my word for it”


    I guess you’ll just have to take her word for it that 1) she is educated and 2) this was her experience.

    I have read enough of your posts to know that I cannot to take your word on anything in the health field – even if you are a “student of health sciences” and even if you teach people CPR.

  • #932530

    yentingyenta
    Member

    Precocious labor-yes I read about it, no I have not seen it in my limited clinical experience. I don’t know the time frame for this.

  • #932531

    real-brisker
    Member

    Health – I don’t see any reason to belive it.

  • #932532

    2scents
    Participant

    I spoke with a few Hatzala Medics.

    they claim that it wont work.

    A) there is no Halacha problem for a male to deliver a baby.

    B) given the intensity and drama of the situation, there is no Hashkafa problem.

    C) for the same reason, there are no uncomfortable feelings WHILE the delivery.

    now, below are the reasons why it is wrong to have females in hatzala.

    A) there will be minling (as is with New Square hatzala a halachic situtaion they have to deal with)

    B) the medics and female assistants will be forced to work together in a team.

    C) there is the issue of yichud (during the transport and on the way back).

    D) as much as ladies will feel uncomfortable that a male member participated in the delivery, ladies will feel more uncomfortable with a female, especially if they are somewhat acquainted and will meet in the future.

    yes, it is an embarrassing situation, as is with many other medical emergencies.

  • #932533

    2scents
    Participant

    the reason there are more deliveries with Hatzala as with EMS.

    is simply because we have more children, meaning that a mother of five or six, will wait till the last minute (washing laundry and dishes) as opposed to a non Jewish family of one and a half.. (including the pet)

  • #932534

    aries2756
    Participant

    I had very long labors and very short deliveries and to tell you the truth, by the time I was ready to deliver I didn’t care if the Janitor delivered my baby, I just wanted that baby out safely and healthy. That is the most important thing. It would be great if everyone can follow their “Birth Plan” but when things get to an emergency level the birth plan is thrown out the window and one should be grateful to have any EMT or qualified person there to deliver a healthy baby into the world. Life is complicated enough and a delivery can be dangerous and complicated. Anyone with any knowledge of birth and delivery is a brocha to have close by. Yes it would be ideal to have a midwife, doula, or female Hatzola member come to one’s rescue but there is no guarantee of that even if women do join Hatzola. And of course when you get to the hospital there is no guarantee that you will have a female doctor deliver your baby either. Even women who choose to have a female OB, there is no guarantee that she will be the one to deliver your baby. She could be in with another patient, she could be in the office, she could be on vacation, she could be stuck in traffic. There are no guarantees.

    So although both sides have good points, pros and cons, no matter what decisions are made, there are no guarantees that those who want a female responder will get what they want. And to be stubborn and hold out for one, will only result in dangerous situations and antagonism among Hatzolah members.

  • #932535

    yungerman1
    Member

    If the Rabbonim have already said no to women in Hatzolah, why is she still putting up a fight? Has she no kovod hatorah at all? Does she always disagree with Rabbonim? If she has other Rabbonim that agree with her and are willing to say so publicly, then ok. But otherwise, swallow your pride and whatever other ideas,feminist or otherwise, you have and follow the psak of the Rabbonim.

  • #932537

    Health
    Participant

    Mod and RB –

    “I guess you’ll just have to take her word for it that 1) she is educated and 2) this was her experience.

    I have read enough of your posts to know that I cannot to take your word on anything in the health field – even if you are a “student of health sciences” and even if you teach people CPR.”

    “Health – I don’t see any reason to belive it.”

    Noone should take my word for anything more than any other poster -this is an anonymous blog. If you don’t belive (for RB) or believe me that’s fine -do your own research. I just know from my own experience, but you can believe whatever you want.

    Mod -I can’t reveal more about myself than I already have, being that there are info stealers/gatherers here.

    Also, I actually did take her word for it, but I asked her to prove it by answering my question. If she doesn’t, then I’ll have to assume she isn’t as educated as she thinks!

  • #932538

    Health
    Participant

    Yenta -There is nothing in your last, long-winded post that I disagree with, but even in first quick labors -you can make it on time to the hospital -me and my (ex)wife did.

  • #932539

    yentingyenta
    Member

    Sorry. I’m not good at being concise with words.

  • #932540

    aries2756
    Participant

    Health, I will agree with this, if a baby is crowning it is very difficult for a woman to be in a moving vehicle. It is extremely painful and scary. There is a time when one can travel and there is a time when one needs to be still. Even when one is having very painful and close contractions it is extremely painful to be in a moving vehicle especially going over bumps and potholes. During contractions I asked my hubby to pull to the side of the road.

  • #932541

    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“is simply because we have more children, meaning that a mother of five or six, will wait till the last minute (washing laundry and dishes) as opposed to a non Jewish family of one and a half.. (including the pet)”

    Btw, we aren’t the only group out there with a lot of kids. Read my previous posts.

    This isn’t an excuse to waste other people’s time because you wait till the last minute. Because you waited till the last minute, now you have to have either Hatzolah or EMS take of you.

    Let’s say while you are wasting their time -they are needed at a life-threating emergency and the other ambulances are futher away!

    Waiting till the last minute and saying “Oh, I can just call Hatzolah or EMS”, is the most selfish thing I’ve ever heard.

    That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t call when you have a childbirth emergency -that isn’t due to your negligence!

  • #932542

    Health
    Participant

    Aries -“if a baby is crowning it is very difficult for a woman to be in a moving vehicle. It is extremely painful and scary.”

    At this time -it’s time to pull over and give birth.

    “There is a time when one can travel and there is a time when one needs to be still. Even when one is having very painful and close contractions it is extremely painful to be in a moving vehicle especially going over bumps and potholes. During contractions I asked my hubby to pull to the side of the road.”

    Another reason not to wait till the last minute -going by ambulance is a very uncomfortable ride and they don’t pull over, except perhaps during delivery!

  • #932543

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Health, I just wanted to get back and answer your question, although I feel no need to “prove myself” that I am educated in these matters. Until you have personally birthed a baby, I wouldn’t start to give advice about who is educated and who isn’t. Standard advice is to wait until contractions are between 6-8 minutes apart. This would ideally be the time you could comfortably travel, the contractions themselves are not lasting too long that to slow down is enough to make it easier on her during an actual contraction (yes I have traveled to the hospital in a taxi in this situation as well), but they’re not so far apart that she’ll get to the hospital and find out that she’s barely started things and is either sent home or sent to walk around the neighborhood until she’s progressed enough to be admitted to the hospital.

    I will say that I had been having a lot of contractions, but they were all about 10 minutes apart, not what I would consider to be a dire emergency to run to the hospital. I thought I still had at least a few hours. Suddenly, I would say in the matter of 5 minutes, I went into very strong labor and could barely move in my house and think clearly enough to deal with the situation I was in. I was actually alone at the time and was waiting for my husband to come home so that we could go to the hospital together. I ended calling for an ambulance (which I felt was preferable than delivering in a taxi if necessary). I was able to walk out to the ambulance by myself, but when they started going over speed bumps I realized I couldn’t continue and they pulled over, at which point I delivered the baby within 5 minutes, less than 1 hour from the start of what I considered hard labor. I hope I didn’t give too much detail here that this post will get mod’ed. Please edit whatever is inappropriate for a public website mods. Suffice to say, however, that a woman has to know her own body but no birth can be compared to a prior one, but usually later births are faster than previous ones, although I have known women who have had subsequent births that took twice as long if not more than previous ones. I hope this is enough of a “proof” for you.

  • #932544

    2scents
    Participant

    Health,

    dont get so worked up. I was referring to a fact, not an i deal.

    up until recently Birth, has been considered a pure BLS call. however now it is an ALS call.

    the reason for that is because most people that call 911 for a birth are people with minimum prenatal care.

    however in the Orthodox community people call Hatzala NOT because they are not informed or did not go to a doctor. only because they waited till the last minute.

    is it the right thing to do? no! but thats what they do.

  • #932545

    2scents
    Participant

    Yungerman,

    it is very simple. they dont care about the Rabonim and the Torah.

    There is a different agenda at play here. that is the reason they did not even consider consulting with the Vaad Rabonim of Hatzalah or any coordinators.

  • #932546

    There was an article in one of the goyisha newspapers about this yesterday.

  • #932547

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    See now, the argument that frum women wait longer because they can just call Hatzoloh (which I don’t believe), actually argues that there should not be women in hatzoloh, so that we incentivizes them to not wait and not call hatzoloh, since it adds to the risks.

  • #932548

    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“however in the Orthodox community people call Hatzala NOT because they are not informed or did not go to a doctor. only because they waited till the last minute.

    is it the right thing to do? no! but thats what they do.”

    After all your argumentative posts, you finally agreed with me!

    And that’s why I posted Freier & company are better off starting an org. that educates people about this. The only difference is -that I was Dan everybody L’caf Zecus and said they were uneducated to the fact of when to go to the hospital!

  • #932549

    2scents
    Participant

    That’s the thing, they will go on talk shows and make it into the non Jewish paper however they will not consult with the rabbonim in charge.

    There is a reason why hatzalah has rabbonim on board.

  • #932550

    2scents
    Participant

    Health, i never disagreed with you.

    I was just stating the facts, not if it’s the right thing to do or not.

    And for the record, I am not in hatzalah. However I did work in the 911 ambulance corps and attended to OB calls.

  • #932551

    Health
    Participant

    Nechomah -“Health, I just wanted to get back and answer your question, although I feel no need to “prove myself” that I am educated in these matters.”

    Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.

    “Until you have personally birthed a baby, I wouldn’t start to give advice about who is educated and who isn’t.”

    So you’re the type that only uses female OB’s or midwives. I know male OB’s whom are more competent than others including females. And also, not all female OB’s have had kids. Btw, I’m not an OB.

    “Standard advice is to wait until contractions are between 6-8 minutes apart.”

    This is definitely not the Standard advice!

    From Sutter Health’s website:

    “Most physicians and midwives suggest contacting them when your contractions are five minutes apart and lasting 60 seconds and you have had this activity for about an hour.” (Some say four minutes.)

    “I will say that I had been having a lot of contractions, but they were all about 10 minutes apart, not what I would consider to be a dire emergency to run to the hospital. I thought I still had at least a few hours. Suddenly, I would say in the matter of 5 minutes, I went into very strong labor and could barely move in my house and think clearly enough to deal with the situation I was in.”

    Your lack of knowledge is what caused you to deliver outside the hospital. You falsely believed the Standard, even your Standard which is more on the lenient side is not what I would call -The Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But we can’t educate e/o – we don’t have the time – so therefore the Standard.

    Here is what the Family Practice notebook writes about triaging s/o calling & saying that they are in labor:

    “Indications: Evaluation at Labor and Delivery”

    (obviously in hospital)

    “General

    Unable to speak during 2 contractions during triage

    Suspected Rupture of Membranes

    Nulliparous patient

    Contractions every 5 minutes

    Multiparous patient

    Contractions every 8-10 minutes”

    During active labor is when patients are admitted to L & D (Hospital).

    So what is active labor?

    Again from FPN:

    “Background

    Stage 1 of Labor is divided into two phases

    Latent Phase

    Active Phase

    Assumes regular, frequent palpable contractions

    Phase: Latent

    Definition

    Cervical dilation <4 cm and

    Regular contractions

    Normal Progress

    Nulliparous women

    Mean duration: 8.6 hours

    Maximum normal duration: 20 hours

    Multiparous women

    Maximum normal duration: 14 hours

    Management

    Avoid hospitalization in latent labor

    Maximize hydration

    Facilitate rest and supportive environment

    Phase: Active

    Definition

    Cervical dilation >4 cm and

    Regular contractions

    Normal Progress

    Nulliparous women

    Cervical Dilation: >1.2 cm/hour

    Fetal Descent: >1 cm/hour

    Multiparous women

    Cervical Dilation: >1.5 cm/hour

    Fetal Descent: >2 cm/hour”

    Had you realized that active labor can be even every 8 -10 minutes and the contractions are around a minute -45 seconds is also good -you would have left for the hospital earlier.

    The main thing is that the contractions during the latent phase aren’t so strong and aren’t coming like clockwork (necessarily). The active stage is when those contractions don’t let you do anything else like Shmuz on the phone, blog, etc., during one!

    Either they hurt or they are intense.

  • #932552

    yentingyenta
    Member

    health, english please? i’m pretty sure most ppl have no clue what you just posted

  • #932553

    2scents
    Participant

    I think the health wrote it for those that claim to be educated in childbirth.

    Although, I think that the entire Megillah could be very much simplified.

    Childbirth (less the complications) Is a very uncomplicated procedure. It gets complicated only when something goes wrong.

  • #932554

    Health
    Participant

    Yenta – And I thought Medical jargon was English.

    So if they don’t understand something they can look it up or You or even Me can explain it. 😉

  • #932555

    yentingyenta
    Member

    i understood it the first time around. but last i checked most people in the CR dont speak gibberish 🙂

    (i just took my ATI test on maternal NB nursing so it was fresh in my mind hence got it on first pass)

  • #932556

    Health
    Participant

    yenta -“i understood it the first time around.”

    I figured you did -that’s why I posted “You or (even Me) can explain it. ;)”!

  • #932557

    yentingyenta
    Member

    Oooohhhh. Now I chap. 🙂

  • #932558

    “yentingyenta

    Fun for the Whole Family

    health, english please? i’m pretty sure most ppl have no clue what you just posted”


    …and what makes you think health understands it? ust like health, I can google, cut and paste all sorts of things and not necessarily understand it.


    health to Nechomah: “Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.”

    mod-72(retired) to health: NOT sorry to ask – are you as arrogant in self-serving in real life as you come off here in the CR? it is a good thing that you are only a “student of health sciences” and not an actual medical practitioner because your pompous attitude would not lead to a good bedside manner.

  • #932559

    2scents
    Participant

    Why does this have to boil down to personal insults?

    I thought we are debating/discussing the subject why all the bashing?

    I dont know about Health’s medical degree, however he does have a point.

  • #932560

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    So why does the Frum community have so many childbirth related calls? Simple -because they are uneducated.

    ???? ??? ?????????? ????????????? ???????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? ?????????

    🙂

  • #932561

    the.nurse
    Member

    Not going to write much because this is a public forum, but 72, you wrote exactly what I was thinking.

  • #932562

    Nechomah
    Participant

    2cents – Please note that he started with the personal attack. I didn’t post here just to have to “prove myself”.

    72 – +1 Thanks. What Health doesn’t realize, since he is not a woman, is that things can change pretty quickly and since HKBH is the one who holds the key to childbirth, it isn’t in our control, so rather than pointing fingers and degrading people, it’s better to recognize that these things just happen.

  • #932563

    Health
    Participant

    2scents – The constant bashing from Mod 72 started when I first came to this site and posted on the topic of Diabetes. I don’t remember what I posted, but he took it personally. And ever since then he has been making comments about me being just a guy who cuts and pastes and just a “student of the health sciences”. I honestly don’t remember what I posted, but even if I was wrong -he doesn’t remember that the Torah says -Thou shouldn’t keep a grudge!

  • #932564

    the.nurse
    Member

    Health

    If you wouldn’t be so degrading and insulting to others in your posts, I don’t think mod72 would have posted that.

  • #932565

    Health
    Participant

    Nechomah – “Please note that he started with the personal attack. I didn’t post here just to have to “prove myself”.”

    You aren’t being exactly honest to the posters and to yourself.

    Maybe you should read back all the posts. I started with a theory that women in the Frum community aren’t educated enough and therefore have home deliveries. You posted that this wasn’t true by you. Maybe you didn’t mention me by name, but you were arguing on my comment. I therefore challenged you to prove it.

    After you telling your story it seemed that you waited to the last minute to go to the hospital and therefore didn’t make it. This points to a lack of education. There was nothing personal in my comments to you. You might have taken my comments personally because the story you were relating was about you -so maybe your emotions got the best of you!

  • #932566

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    There was nothing personal in my comments to you. You might have taken my comments personally because the story you were relating was about you -so maybe your emotions got the best of you!

    Perhaps you didn’t learn this when you were younger, but to call someone uneducated is a personal attack.

  • #932567

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Also, when some OBs and hospital staff pay more attention to their watches and protocols than to the laboring woman and baby, stressing the mother out, then rushing things along for their convenience and jumping too quickly to forceps or surgery, if I were a woman, I’d probably want to wait until the very last minute to go to the hospital, too.

  • #932569

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD – Perhaps you didn’t learn this when you were younger, but you should read all the posts before you comment. I had made a theory on why Frum women don’t make it on time to deliver at the hospital. I posted that they weren’t educated enough in this area. I included in that theory this poster -this is Not a personal attack!

  • #932570

    yentingyenta
    Member

    mod-72, i figured health understood it cuz he offered to explain it to quote: “So if they don’t understand something they can look it up or You or even Me can explain it. ;)”

    health, why are you so secretive about your role in medicine? i mean even if you say your a nurse there’s nothing wrong with that…

  • #932571

    2scents
    Participant

    OK, so I guess that this discussion (Hatzola) has reached its final point.

    From here on only post if you have something negative to mention the more personal you get, the better!

    time to move on..

  • #932572

    miritchka
    Member

    ok, to everyone that is bashing Health: I’ve read some of Healths posts and I have to say that if you really read the info s/he writes, you will see that its useful and seems to be truthful too. IMHO, Health is passionate about what s/he writes and therefore it comes across in his/her posts.

    The first time that Health responded to one of my posts, I too felt ready to defend myself and bash him/her! But now i see s/he means no harm.

    So everyone, just take a deep breath and calm down! 😉

  • #932573

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    Avram in MD – Perhaps you didn’t learn this when you were younger, but you should read all the posts before you comment.

    I did.

    I had made a theory on why Frum women don’t make it on time to deliver at the hospital. I posted that they weren’t educated enough in this area.

    I understand that.

    I included in that theory this poster

    Which was personal.

    -this is Not a personal attack!

    Yes it was.

  • #932575

    Health

    Member

    you wrote:

    “Nechomah –

    Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure),”

    mod-72 (Retired) to health: This is called a personal attack. When you question the intelligence or education level of another poster it is called a personal attack.

    Disagreeing with you or arguing on your comments is not a personal attack. It may make you uncomfortable. It may irritate you. It may even cause you to wonder just how foolish a person may be because they disagree or argue with you. It may be all these things and more – but it is NOT a personal attack

    ____________

    My comments have nothing to do with a grudge – I don’t hold grudges. 1) for it to qualify as a grudge it would be because you “beat” me at something and now I need to get even – this never happened,

    2) each of my posts has to do with your current comments – the only history is the reminding everybody what you said about yourself being a student of health sciences – which I interpret as a person who can google, cut and paste because all you discuss is the straight “science” – you take out the human equation.

  • #932576

    Health
    Participant

    yenta -“health, why are you so secretive about your role in medicine?”

    I wouldn’t be so secretive, but talking about it will give away who I am. Some people here use any personal info against you.

    Suffice it to say that I’ve been trained in more than one area.

    I wouldn’t even answer this question to anybody else, but I feel you are being honest about yourself.

  • #932577

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“I’d probably want to wait until the very last minute to go to the hospital, too.”

    Somehow I don’t think most people have the same negative feelings about hospitals, medical personell, esp. those in the OB Dept., as you do. If your observations were correct -why is it only the Frum women whom wait till the last minute -everybody should?!

    Also, your assumption about treatment for childbirth -if you really believe what you posted and all others that think like you -why use them? The last I heard was this was a free country -you don’t have to go to the hospital -you can deliver at home. And esp. nowadays they have birthing centers where you are only treated by midwives and not doctors, NP’s or PA’s!

    Make sure to tell all your female family members when they have babies -to make sure not to use hospitals for delivery -only the other options!

    “-this is Not a personal attack!

    Yes it was.”

    Avram -So acc. to your train of thought -I personally attacked every Frum woman who didn’t always make it on time to the hospital to deliver. So I guess they should all come here and bash me.

  • #932578

    Health
    Participant

    miritchka – Thanks.

  • #932579

    miritchka
    Member

    🙂

  • #932580

    Health
    Participant

    mod-72 (Retired) to health: “This is called a personal attack. When you question the intelligence or education level of another poster it is called a personal attack.”

    Read my post to AVRAM!

    “because all you discuss is the straight “science” – you take out the human equation.”

    That is your opinion. It’s funny how you can Judge me up about my empathy on the human equation from my posts without even knowing me personally. I guess you got a sixth sense from formerly being a Mod. Did you ever hear of the Jewish concept of being Dan L’caf Zecus? Esp. since you never saw me actually deal with a real patient?!!

    “each of my posts has to do with your current comments – the only history is the reminding everybody what you said about yourself being a student of health sciences – which I interpret as a person who can google, cut and paste”

    You’re doing a good job of constantly reminding e/o of this.

    Read my post to Yenta and you’ll understand why I don’t post more about myself. You’re a classic example!

    And the reason I like to “cut and paste” is because I can avoid -the “Who says? -Prove it.” comments that e/o posts. I did already by cutting & pasting.

    I even got that comment here -when I said that EMS home delivery is a rare occasion by the Goyim!

  • #932581

    yentingyenta
    Member

    health, ok cool. didn’t realize your job was unique.

  • #932582

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Hi Health,

    Somehow I don’t think most people have the same negative feelings about hospitals, medical personell, esp. those in the OB Dept., as you do.

    I’ve never done a poll.

    Also, your assumption about treatment for childbirth -if you really believe what you posted and all others that think like you -why use them? The last I heard was this was a free country -you don’t have to go to the hospital -you can deliver at home. And esp. nowadays they have birthing centers where you are only treated by midwives and not doctors

    Excellent suggestions for normal, healthy pregnancies. 🙂

    Avram -So acc. to your train of thought -I personally attacked every Frum woman who didn’t always make it on time to the hospital to deliver. So I guess they should all come here and bash me.

    No, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about what you said to Nechomah:

    Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.

    That was a personal attack.

  • #932583

    the.nurse
    Member

    Health

    You talk about being don l’kaf zchus others and are upset people are ‘bashing’ you.

    Let me use your own words:

    To real-brisker: “RB – Maybe you should change your name to Chochom from the Ma Nish Taneh? I actually was waiting for s/o to post what you wrote. I wonder how many people believe you?”…And the next thing some Chochom will write is that they all plan their births.”

    To yentingyenta: “Well thank you. Did you ever see this or are you just quoting your nursing textbook?”

    To nechomah: “Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure)”.. And again “Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.”

    Please tell us how this is 1. being dan l’kaf zechus others and 2. simply respecting others and disagreeing in a RESPECTFUL way, since it doesn’t seem that way to me (or to others, apparently).

    There is a way to disagree that’s respectful, and a way to disagree that is insulting and sarcastic/degrading.

  • #932584

    Everything you state as fact is nothing more than your opinion. It’s funny how you can judge other posters here and their knowledge base from their posts without even knowing them. I guess you have a sixth sense from being a being a CPR trainer and a student of health sciences (and a google cut and paste expert – note: I had to include that).

    Did you ever hear of the Jewish concept of being Dan L’caf Z’cus? Esp. since you never saw any of the posters on the diabetes thread or this thread as real patients?!!

    ____

    Avram +1

  • #932585

    the.nurse +1

    ____________

    btw health if you do not like my most recent post and you think that I am attacking you

    here is your post:

    “That is your opinion. It’s funny how you can Judge me up about my empathy on the human equation from my posts without even knowing me personally. I guess you got a sixth sense from formerly being a Mod. Did you ever hear of the Jewish concept of being Dan L’caf Zecus? Esp. since you never saw me actually deal with a real patient?!!”

    and here is mine:

    “Everything you state as fact is nothing more than your opinion. It’s funny how you can judge other posters here and their knowledge base from their posts without even knowing them. I guess you have a sixth sense from being a being a CPR trainer and a student of health sciences (and a google cut and paste expert – note: I had to include that).

    Did you ever hear of the Jewish concept of being Dan L’caf Z’cus? Esp. since you never saw any of the posters on the diabetes thread or this thread as real patients?!!”

    —-

    The only difference is I removed the redundancies (google it for the definition*) and fixed some of the grammar.

    * this comment didn’t have to be included and was probably inappropriate but once again I couldn’t resist.

  • #932586

    Health
    Participant

    Avram -“I’ve never done a poll.”

    Neither have I, but considering most births occur in the hospital -I’d say most women aren’t that negative about it as you!

    “Excellent suggestions for normal, healthy pregnancies.”

    So – have you even convinced your family members to go this route?

    “No, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about what you said to Nechomah:”

    “Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.”

    “That was a personal attack.”

    Again, if you stand it alone -you can call it that. But that isn’t the case. She claimed to be different than everyone else even though she delivered outside of the hospital. I took her word on that, but asked her why she thinks she is more educated than others. After she posted her story, it didn’t seem she really had that much education. So my theory still stands. If you want to call this a personal attack -go ahead if this what makes you happy!

  • #932587

    Health
    Participant

    the.nurse – “Health –

    You talk about being don l’kaf zchus others and are upset people are ‘bashing’ you.”

    It’s ok, you can bash me as much as you want – if this is how you get your kicks. Just tell me -why do you keep jumping onto the bandwagon here -do you have something against me?

    If you are not married – if and when you do find a spouse – you will have a hard time getting along with him/her – if you only see the negative in people.

    “Let me use your own words:

    To real-brisker: “RB – Maybe you should change your name to Chochom from the Ma Nish Taneh? I actually was waiting for s/o to post what you wrote. I wonder how many people believe you?”…And the next thing some Chochom will write is that they all plan their births.”

    I called him out for a reason, not for my kicks. He was suffering from an acute case of “posting before thinking syndrome”!

    “To yentingyenta: “Well thank you. Did you ever see this or are you just quoting your nursing textbook?”

    This actually was Not a rank out. I wanted to know if she saw this in the clinical world. Maybe the “Well, thank you” was a little sarcastic.

    “To nechomah: “Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure)”.. And again “Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.”

    Read My Post to Avram!

    “There is a way to disagree that’s respectful, and a way to disagree that is insulting and sarcastic/degrading.”

    You should Practice what you Preach!

  • #932588

    yentingyenta
    Member

    i think this has gone far enough. have i had bruised feelings from health? yes i have. but i have learned not to take it personally. i don’t know what happened between health and nechomah, RB, Avrom, and the.nurse but i think its end of civil conversation. can we please stop the name calling, people bashing and insulting?

    health, i ask you please not to take what i am about to say too personally. sometimes your posts come across as harsh and demeaning, even if you did not mean it that way. a simple suggestion, after writing a post, reread it and see if it will be read by others as a harsh post or a post that will enhance the thread and the topic at hand.

    to everyone else, maybe its also partly our fault. next time we read a post that seems negative, perhaps a second read with out adding a mental tone of voice to the post may be beneficial. IY”H i’m going to try to do this as well.

    lets try and end this argument on a better note and not let it spiral out of control.

  • #932589

    Health
    Participant

    YW Moderator-72 -“Everything you state as fact is nothing more than your opinion.”

    Why are you posting this as a Chidush? Since We are all anonymous -our posts are just opinions!

    And btw, when I “copy and paste” from a medical site -it’s a fact, even if you disagree! (Unless you have proof from another valid medical site -that agrees with you!)

    “It’s funny how you can judge other posters here and their knowledge base from their posts without even knowing them.

    Did you ever hear of the Jewish concept of being Dan L’caf Z’cus? Esp. since you never saw any of the posters on the diabetes thread or this thread as real patients?!!”

    Where did I not judge up anybody L’caf Zecus including Diabetics?

    “The only difference is I removed the redundancies (google it for the definition*) and fixed some of the grammar.

    * this comment didn’t have to be included and was probably inappropriate but once again I couldn’t resist.”

    Did the guys from the Yeshiva, when you where there, think that you were a riot? Does your wife and others (family, friends) constantly tell you how funny you are? If they do, that’s their opinion, Not Mine!

  • #932590

    the.nurse
    Member

    Health

    I have nothing against you and do not wish to argue with you. Though I don’t post often, I do read the threads a lot, and I have found, as yentingyenta pointed out, that often your posts seem very sarcastic and insulting to others. I have never said anything to you before about it because I figured it wasn’t my place. However, in this thread, I think you insulted a few people (maybe unintentionally) and once the topic was brought up, I stuck in my few cents. Maybe I shouldn’t have. But I felt strongly about it and chose to. If I hurt you in any way, I apologize.

    Again, I have nothing against you and do not wish to cause machlokes here. Maybe, as yentingyenta stated, you should re-read your posts before posting because many times people can take them the wrong way.

    I wish you much hatzlocha.

  • #932591

    Health
    Participant

    yentingyenta -“have i had bruised feelings from health? yes i have.”

    Sorry, I probably didn’t mean it.

    “but i have learned not to take it personally.”

    Good!

    “i don’t know what happened between health and nechomah,”

    I didn’t Personally insult her, but some posters here decided I did and called me out on it.

    “RB,”

    I did, but not for my kicks as I explained above.

    “Avrom, and the.nurse”

    They are some of the posters who called me out on it.

    “health, i ask you please not to take what i am about to say too personally. sometimes your posts come across as harsh and demeaning,”

    Sometimes they are meant to and sometimes not. But it’s all for good reason.

  • #932592

    Health
    Participant

    the.nurse -Your last post is practicing what you preach.

    See I’m not the ogre e/o thinks I am -I just gave a compliment. 🙂

  • #932593

    Health

    Member

    “Where did I not judge up anybody L’caf Zecus including Diabetics?”

    To nechomah: “Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure)”

    not exactly what an honest person would call giving the benefit of the doubt – in reality this one line uproots your claim to do so.

    _______________________

    and being as you asked

    Does your wife and others (family, friends) constantly tell you how funny you are? If they do, that’s their opinion, Not Mine!

    the answer is constantly tell me: NO! Frequently? NO. A bunch of times in the course of the year? NO! Once every so often? perhaps. Many times they laugh at my jokes, quips and humorous stories (many times – not all times. Even Johny Carson didn’t get a laugh every time but at least he had an applause and laugh monitor for his audience). YES, they really do – sorry I am not going to post a video as proof. you will have to trust me that they do – but if you want to doubt it – fine by me – I will still sleep well. Yes, it is there opinion that I am a humorous person and not yours – but it is their opinion that counts in my life and Not Yours (caps to match your caps)! (note: this was not a personal attack just a statement of fact – even if you cannot google it).

    I am sure that your spouse and family consider you the gadol hador in the health sciences world. I am sure that they view you as a kind, compassionate, caring and warm person. Perhaps IRL you come across that way because perhaps IRL you are – I haven’t a clue. My concern is the way you come off here in cyber-world and that you make people feel (very) uncomfortable.

    You were given some good advice up there (even if it wasn’t googled from a valid medical website – one with the health hecksher). Perhaps you should think about it and follow it.

  • #932594

    real-brisker
    Member

    Health – What do you mean not for your kicks, rather?

  • #932595

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Gosh, I hate to come back in this conversation since I seem to be the one who started all this bashing, which I totally did not mean to do, but I just wanted to make a final point or two.

    Health, I did not mean to attack you, but rather your idea that education or lack thereof is the reason for the high #s of home births amongst frum women. I honestly do not think that education is the issue. How many times can a woman take a class on labor and delivery, once, twice at most as a refresher. Well, just keep in mind that we go way past those #s on average in our families, b”H, and since each birth is different, it would not be possible to educate each frum (or even not frum) woman on what could happen during her labor process to ensure that she would get to the hospital on time. Lots of things can happen in the middle of a labor (which was my whole point all along) and no matter how “educated” she may or may not be, it is simply not possible to get to the hospital on time. In my situation, I was alone and without transportation other than an ambulance or taxi and I had been managing my contractions just fine up until a certain point, where things escalated in what seemed like a minute and at that point it was too late, but I couldn’t have known that in advance. Maybe if I had known than regular contractions coming every 10 minutes for a multipara would be the signal to go to the hospital, I might have gone earlier, but I’m not 100% sure.

    Finally, the reason I’m not 100% sure is, as someone posted above, the high rate of excessive intervention in births of women who get to the hospital “too early”. What I mean is for that a woman who is in active labor, but not progressing rapidly, many times the doctors start doing all sorts of things to help speed things along that in many cases end up resulting in a cesarean section. I would like to know what are the rates of frum women versus non-frum women having cesarean sections in the overall population in America. I know you can’t provide these #s, but I can say that I only had 1 in my 6 births and it was for a good reason – my baby was in distress. It’s not that I wanted to have my baby at 37 weeks because I couldn’t stand being pregnant anymore (only my last baby – the ambulance one – was born less than 1 1/2 weeks after my due date). The induction rates in America are, in my opinion, horrifying, and show a general “I want it now” syndrome that we all know is prevalent in American society in general, and it is leading to a lot of unnecessary surgeries. I was managing one of my labors just fine at home and went to the hospital early on just to make sure I delivered there, and I ended up having an pleasant experience because I was forced to lie on the bed for more than 3 hours without getting up to walk around simply because I had had a cesarean before and they wanted to monitor me. I was glad for the caution, but it made things very uncomfortable, which, like I originally said, until a man personally delivers a baby, he can never understand what this feels like.

    I do know another woman who had a baby on Shabbos and Hatzola came to help her in the birth. One of her friend’s husbands is a Hatzola member and he made sure other Hatzola staff helped before him so that she would not be embarrassed later on if she saw him. Having a man you know personally deliver your baby is a lot different than having him help you when you hit your head, break your arm, or suffer any other of a number of medical emergencies that need help from Hatzola.

    OK, I’m finished now. On a personal note, it’s not fair to pigeon-hole people based on your perceptions of what they say in this forum. It’s not possible to convey our whole body of knowledge in one of these posts (simply for time and space for reader and writer both) and you should not assume to understand a person so well to make the assumptions that you do. I have had numerous male OB/Gyn’s over the course of my childbearing years, only taking a female when I was told that she was the best qualified doctor to handle my situation at the time. Also, here in EY, we don’t have the option unless you go private to pick the doctor who will be present at your birth. In both of my hospital births here in EY, there were numerous male doctors and also a female midwife present during my births.

    Thanks everybody who stood up to defend me. I don’t think it’s necessary to continue to bash Health since he probably won’t change based on our assessments of his personality anymore than we will based on his assessments of ours. Maybe it’s best to close this thread.

  • #932596

    Health
    Participant

    RB – You know exactly what I mean. It’s not that you just posted w/o thinking -it’s that people will believe it. So sometimes people need to be told off. Maybe your posting here because you get kicks out of it, but a lot of topics are very important.

    There is a problem amonst Frum women -that a lot can’t make it on time to the hospital for delivery. Freier had one solution -I had another. Denying the problem just excuses e/o from not doing anything!

  • #932597

    Health
    Participant

    Nechoma -You make some interesting points.

    “Maybe if I had known than regular contractions coming every 10 minutes for a multipara would be the signal to go to the hospital, I might have gone earlier, but I’m not 100% sure.”

    But there definitely is the possibility that you would have made it.

    I read this topic and I started wondering -why do Frum women not make it on time to the hospital? So I theorized that it’s due to lack of education more than the Goyim. If s/o goes and teaches e/o does that mean noone will deliver in the pre-hospital arena? Of course not, but maybe we can lower the rates. Your theory about people not wanting to go early -I don’t think is the reason by most, even though I empathize with you being stuck on the bed. Most women stick up for themselves and don’t let them get pushed around like that. If they can’t, they hire a doula -which nowadays is very popular. If people were so scared of hospitals they wouldn’t wait till the last minute to go and perhaps have the baby w/o anyone to deliver the kid, they would just arrange to give birth in a birthing center.

    I’m just trying to make people aware that there is a problem amongst Frum women who aren’t delivering in the hospital as much as they should. Frier’s solution isn’t a solution because even if e/o was on board with her idea (Hatzola, etc.) -the child is still not being born in the best environment. But she is a lawyer, not a doctor and all she knows is what she is hearing from her friends that they were embarassed to call Hatzola. So she thinks the only problem is Tznius. Whether it should be a birthing center or a hospital that should be the individual’s decision. But it shouldn’t be a non-planned home birth or in the back of the bus (ambulance)! I tried to come up with a more logical solution than her.

  • #932598

    the.nurse
    Member

    Health,

    “It’s not that you just posted w/o thinking -it’s that people will believe it. So sometimes people need to be told off.”

    What??

    I didn’t want to post here again, but do you understand what you are writing? RB is not your child and he definitely does not need to be told off by you. Like I wrote previously, if you disagree with a poster or see that what they’re writing is incorrect, you can write your post respectfully. Calling someone a ‘chochom’ when you know that in essence you are calling him a dummy, is completely unnecessary, disrespectful and insulting.

    Sorry to come off sounding harsh, but I hope you understand what I’m writing. I am truly not trying to be mean here, I’m just asking for some sensitivity from you when posting. I don’t think calling others names (i.e. chochom, uneducated) is ever appropriate.

    I hope you can read this post objectively and not take it as a personal bashing, because I honestly don’t mean it that way.

  • #932599

    real-brisker
    Member

    Health – “maybe you just posting to get the kicks out of it”. I think I have better things to do with my time than that.

  • #932600

    yentingyenta
    Member

    nechomah, i don’t think you started this. your last post is eloquently written and well explained.

    health, i’m going to do a little experiment. i’m going to tell you the same thing but in 2 ways.

    1-YOU MISSED THE BOAT!!!!!!!!!!! how can you possibly have not understood what i was trying to tell you. you know what your problem is? oh you do? good because i dont. but i know part of your problem. you read each post and then nitpick on each peice thereby missing the grand scheme of things. and what the heck do you mean that you say demeaning things on purpose? isnt there a thing called not hurting other’s feelings? you do know the first few times you insulted me i did take it personally. but then i realized you have something against the female gender so not so insulted anymore

    2-health, i think you missed the point i was trying to make. it could be its my fault for this; i may not have said it clearly. personally i think it may be because the way you take some of the posts apart and comment on specific points rather than see it as a whole post. i’m still alittle confused as what you meant when you said “Sometimes they are meant to and sometimes not. But it’s all for good reason”. i don’t know when it is a good reason to insult others. one last note, i used to be very sensitive but over this year i have gained something i never really had, and thats self esteem. but thats from nursing school, not from growing a thick skin.

    k now since you read both, which post would YOU rather have. you are free to choose.

    (the point of this was just to show you there are 2 ways of saying basically the same thing. it just depends on how it is said)

    just one last point, is this phenomena of women waiting found in all communities? i asked this previously but no one had an answer.

  • #932601

    real-brisker
    Member

    the.nurse – Thank you for understanding.

  • #932603

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Hi Health,

    Neither have I, but considering most births occur in the hospital -I’d say most women aren’t that negative about it as you!

    Or maybe they’re just not educated enough about the issues… 🙂

    So – have you even convinced your family members to go this route?

    My wife convinced me.

  • #932604

    Health
    Participant

    Yenta – I don’t see why you feel the need to lecture me -you’re not my mother.

    The first way of posting doesn’t bother me, if you feel so inclined -you can post like that. But it has a lie in it – “but then i realized you have something against the female gender so not so insulted anymore”! And lying just makes your point look disgenuine, even if you had a real point!

  • #932605

    Health
    Participant

    Nurse -“What?? I didn’t want to post here again,”

    So why did you?

    “but do you understand what you are writing?”

    Yes, I do!

    “RB is not your child and he definitely does not need to be told off by you.”

    And I’m not your child and I definitely Don’t need to be told off by You!

    “Like I wrote previously, if you disagree with a poster or see that what they’re writing is incorrect, you can write your post respectfully. Calling someone a ‘chochom’ when you know that in essence you are calling him a dummy, is completely unnecessary, disrespectful and insulting.”

    So true! But how come you don’t Practice what You Preach?

  • #932606

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“Or maybe they’re just not educated enough about the issues… “

    Seems a little hypocritical to me -only the ones whom don’t make it on time to the hospital are the educated ones and know to avoid the hospital at all costs; but the vast majority of women who decide to give birth in the hospital instead of waiting till the last minute or going to a birthing center are the uneducated ones!

    “My wife convinced me.”

    So now you are her spokesman! I’m not so against birthing centers as you would think. But she can come here and post her opinions about birthing places herself! Actually there is a topic in the CR that discusses this. It would be more appropiate to post it over there than in this topic.

  • #932607

    yentingyenta
    Member

    health, i wasnt trying to lecture to you, just trying to show you why some posters get offended by the way you write. i’m sorry if i offended you. (and i won’t be posting like the first way. it didnt feel right). and what was the lie in my post?

  • #932608

    the.nurse
    Member

    Ok, Health, forget it, I give up. You obviously are not getting the point that everyone here is trying to explain to you. Like another poster stated, you are picking apart everyone’s posts and commenting on certain statements, but missing the whole point.

    I wish you much hatzlacha.

  • #932609

    mods, can we close this?

  • #932610

    I agree. this thread is getting way to vicious! It should be closed for the good of the cr.

  • #932611

    Health
    Participant

    yentingyenta -“and what was the lie in my post?”

    It’s in quotation marks in my post to you. Btw, I have nothing against females.

  • #932612

    yentingyenta
    Member

    sorry health, read it 5x. i said i was less insulted personally because you do this to all women (or so it seems) so once its not a personal attack, its less insulting.

    what lie did you read in my post?

  • #932613

    yentingyenta
    Member

    forget it. don’t answer me. we are not going to agree. mods? i agree w/ choco and isometimes.

  • #932614

    Health
    Participant

    Yenta – “but then i realized you have something against the female gender” Is Not the same as:

    “i said i was less insulted personally because you do this to all women”

    The first quote Is Not True! Why would you say this?

  • #932616

    real-brisker
    Member

    Mods – For Heavens Sake! Please Close this Thread.

  • #932617

    Many people have send they have done polls…Whould anyone like sharing those results?

  • #932618

    Does anyone know results forsure?? or are ppl just speculating???

  • #932619

    Has ANYONE seen the new “hatzolah” team of woman that helps with delivery?? SEE YWNCR has had an effect on the klal!!! way to go!!!

  • #932621

    more_2
    Member

    Since when? And where??

  • #932622

    Matzav had a whole article a couple weeks ago.. Its really a need and FINALLY people are doing something beside for taliking! there taking action!!

  • #932623

    Health
    Participant

    coreytothecup -“Has ANYONE seen the new “hatzolah” team of woman that helps with delivery?? SEE YWNCR has had an effect on the klal!!! way to go!!!”

    They just got their operating license from Albany.

    Who is going to be footing their bill?

  • #932624

    2scents
    Participant

    what does this mean?

    they will be a regular ambulance corp, or a rescue squad?

    will they respond in their private cars using lights and sirens?

    what area does this license cover?

  • #932625

    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“they will be a regular ambulance corp, or a rescue squad?”

    They have the license to do it in NYS.

    Do you want to join?

    But I’m afraid they will reject you because you are a male.

    The same way Hatzola rejected them because they aren’t male.

    I’m not a Squareh Chossid, but they got it right. Males respond to regular emerg. and females go to woman emerg. in Squaretown.

    “will they respond in their private cars using lights and sirens?”

    And why Not?

    “what area does this license cover?”

    NYS -BLS. They do hope to apply for ALS soon also.

    The Frum community/comedy is getting funnier by the minute.

  • #932626

    2scents
    Participant

    Health,

    ;

    Your a bit off, in New Square, males respond, the females get picked up either with the bus or a member picks them up, they get dispatched (or paged) only AFTER there is a full regular crew.

    In fact, it isn’t really working in New Square, the members admit to it. Its all because the Rebbe decided to do it.

  • #932627

    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“Your a bit off, in New Square, males respond, the females get picked up either with the bus or a member picks them up, they get dispatched (or paged) only AFTER there is a full regular crew.

    In fact, it isn’t really working in New Square, the members admit to it. Its all because the Rebbe decided to do it.”

    You’re right -doesn’t sound like the perfect situation. But I mean they got it right -that they have the right idea.

    It wouldn’t have been too hard to figure out a way. I read on one of the Frum blogs that Hatzola could have had them join. (I added in some of my ideas with this guys’.) They get dispatched along with regular members and the males assess without examination and if the birth is imminent -they deliver. If it’s not imminent -they wait for the females to come to assess & exam and they back off. They stand outside and they drive the bus and help load and unload. They don’t even have to be in the back of the bus -they can sit upfront. One of the members drives their car to the hospital so they don’t even have to be with males on the way back.

    There definitely is a lack of Achdus amongst many people. When there is a will – there’s (a relative) a way!

  • #932628

    miritchka
    Member

    IMHO, this is so wrong. Whenever i think of this group of women, I just keep seeing this image in my head of a mother making supper, listening to her children talk about their day, rocking the baby with one foot, keeping an eye on the laundry, preparing snacks/lunch for the next day, etc… and running off in middle to help someone else. Not exactly so ideal. A mother should be there for her family.

    I personally am more comfortable with a male dr. and i know many others who are too.

    Maybe i’d get used to the idea of women responding if they ever are accepted, but i just cant see it now.

  • #932629

    2scents
    Participant

    I will tell you why it will not work.

    There are a lot of issues that have to be handled, which are far more serious than a male delivering a baby.

    There is the issue of being in the back of the ambulance with two female responders, there are some members that do not respond to OB calls only they feel that it is not right that they should be together with Females riding home from the hospital.

    After all they were through a dramatic situation, it is more than normal to discuss it and give your personal opinion on what should have done differently, etc.

    Each delivery in NY gets ALS, there will always be paramedics in the back of the bus. Some medics have already sent off the females from the bus due to

  • #932630

    Gamanit
    Participant

    Maybe I’m slow, but I don’t see why there can’t be a male going to asses that it’s not a faker trying to get a woman alone in the house. Once that is assessed, why can’t women handle the whole situation including the transfer and driving the ambulance? Also, childbirth isn’t the only time woman would need EMT assistance. A friend’s mother burned herself in a private place and it was very embarrassing for her.

  • #932631

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I have a better idea. You pathetic New Yorkers should stop giving birth in ambulances. GO TO THE BLAZED HOSPITAL like everyone else in American does.

    I seriously think the existence of hatzolo has turned you all into the most complete lunatics about your health. If you are in labor, you get in your car, drive to the supermarket to pick up some donuts for the nurses so they treat you well, and then drive to the hospital and check yourself in. You shouldn’t be waiting until the last moment and then calling an ambulance.

    And this goes for most other health issues also. If you cut yourself, you get in your car and drive to the hospital; if you break a limb, you get in your car and drive to the hospital. If you can’t drive, you call a taxi. If you aren’t feeling well, you call your doctor and ask what to do; if he says go to the emergency room, you get in your car and drive to the hospital.

    That’s how the rest of the world works, where ambulances aren’t free taxi rides. Calling 911 is for when you have chest pains or stroke symptoms or something else which is a minute to minute emergency. I’ll give you a pro-tip: If the ambulance doesn’t call in to the hospital to get them ready for you, then you didn’t need an ambulance.

    Part of what contributes to this is that people think they’ll be cared for earlier if they come in an ambulance. It isn’t true. My brother is hatzolo, and has seen the patients he brought earlier still sitting and waiting on a gurney when he came back with new patients way later. Only, they are also strapped into a ridiculous brace because that’s what the EMT protocol is.

    If it is really an emergency, you won’t care if the EMT is male, female, or a klingon. If you care, then it isn’t an emergency, and you should call a taxi.

  • #932632

    Health
    Participant

    miritchka -“IMHO, this is so wrong.”

    Hey, if you join EN -you and your hubby can share war stories.

  • #932633

    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“I will tell you why it will not work.”

    It would help if you read my post before responding because I addressed some of your issues already.

    “There are a lot of issues that have to be handled, which are far more serious than a male delivering a baby.

    There is the issue of being in the back of the ambulance with two female responders, there are some members that do not respond to OB calls only they feel that it is not right that they should be together with Females riding home from the hospital.

    After all they were through a dramatic situation, it is more than normal to discuss it and give your personal opinion on what should have done differently, etc.”

    I addressed this issue in my post above – this is a prob in New Square. I said this wouldn’t happen here.

    “Each delivery in NY gets ALS, there will always be paramedics in the back of the bus. Some medics have already sent off the females from the bus due to”

    Yeah I looked up the NYS protocol. It says call ALS in the begining note. Do you know how many protocols say this? The fact is that Childbirth is a BLS call. I even heard this from Hatzolah members, if you don’t believe me. The reason you might need ALS is a childbirth or newborn complication(s). These calls are far & few inbetween. If such a case would occur then medics could be called and the females would pack out. They could just take their car that the male member is driving. And don’t tell me medics have to be in the back of the bus on every birthing call. It doesn’t happen now in any childbirth call commonly.

    So come up with a real excuse to defend your org. Hatzolah – if it is indeed your org.!

  • #932634

    superme
    Member

    No shouldn’t be women at all there not qualified for it for many reasons but no I rather a male one for severeal reasons inorder to get s/o on a strecher u normally lift them men are stronger also with prob of yichud ad nigiah its more about the girl who has to protect herself so being a hatzalah member for women won’t work

  • #932635

    Skype
    Member

    Popa: We can’t erase things from our memory. And yes, a woman can be affected for years to come even if at the moment she won’t care which gender took care of her.

  • #932636

    Health
    Participant

    PBA -“I have a better idea. You pathetic New Yorkers should stop giving birth in ambulances. GO TO THE BLAZED HOSPITAL like everyone else in American does.

    I seriously think the existence of hatzolo has turned you all into the most complete lunatics about your health. If you are in labor, you get in your car, drive to the supermarket to pick up some donuts for the nurses so they treat you well, and then drive to the hospital and check yourself in. You shouldn’t be waiting until the last moment and then calling an ambulance.”

    Yup. +10 I posted many times the main prob is lack of education -when to go to the hospital.

    “And this goes for most other health issues also. If you cut yourself, you get in your car and drive to the hospital; if you break a limb, you get in your car and drive to the hospital. If you can’t drive, you call a taxi. If you aren’t feeling well, you call your doctor and ask what to do; if he says go to the emergency room, you get in your car and drive to the hospital.

    That’s how the rest of the world works, where ambulances aren’t free taxi rides. Calling 911 is for when you have chest pains or stroke symptoms or something else which is a minute to minute emergency. I’ll give you a pro-tip: If the ambulance doesn’t call in to the hospital to get them ready for you, then you didn’t need an ambulance.”

    Most of the time you’re right. What happened when we were kids?

    This is also a lack of education. Lots don’t know basic First Aid – like putting pressure and a clean cloth on a wound and then going to the hospital -so they call Hatzolah.

    “If it is really an emergency, you won’t care if the EMT is male, female, or a klingon. If you care, then it isn’t an emergency, and you should call a taxi.”

    Or you could call 911. Some systems charge for 911 service – so in these situations – it’s just an expensive taxi!

  • #932637

    superme
    Member

    Okay health and pba ur men so u were never in labor………

  • #932638

    Health
    Participant

    superme -“Okay health and pba ur men so u were never in labor….”

    Somehow judging your age from your posts, I don’t think you ever were either.

  • #932639

    Mammele
    Participant

    You guys are so clueless. Most hospitals send women home if they arrive too early, some women have impossibly short labors (not the first child) and driving yourself in an emergency can be deadly, or even impossible if there are injuries.

    Bleeding, burns, even appendicitis or severe pain can lead to shock, and most issues can unexpectedly escalate.

    And how easy is it to get a cab during a snowstorm? Thank G-d for Hatzolah.

    Are there people abusing the system? Most definitely yes, but to go back to the way things were or still is in middle America is virtually suicidal, and not an option for Jews who value

    life.

    Health: adding women into the Hatzolah mix adds another layer of logistics where the benefit does not outweigh the risks. Even if you’re right with all your solutions, they may cost valuable time to be lost or backfire when things go awry.

    Bottom line, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

  • #932641

    2scents
    Participant

    Health,

    You are totally wrong, OB calls used to be BLS, its changed and became an automatically ALS call, in the system and in Hatzoloh.

    Any imminent OB call, will have para,edics on the scene, unless its just a fancy taxi job.

    The reason behind the change if protocol is because most women (not chasidishe that always wait till its to late) that call EMS for a delivery usually have poor prenatal care, therefore the protocol demands that Paramedics be called even though its a BLS skill.

    I have been reading the arguments of both sides, I really think that this should be discussed with the EMTs and Paramedics that currently do it, see what they have to say.

    Again, in new square, because they must have females on the transport (per the rebbes protocol), they have a hard time finding EMTs and Paramedics for OB calls. A serious married person does not want to sit in an ambulance with females, especially if they are part of the crew.

    It might solve the issue of “some” female patients being more comfortable, however it raises halachik questions

  • #932642

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You guys are so clueless. Most hospitals send women home if they arrive too early,

    You know why they send you home? Because it is safe to. That’s when they send you home. So sometimes you go and get sent home.

    some women have impossibly short labors (not the first child) and driving yourself in an emergency can be deadly, or even impossible if there are injuries.

    If you’re afraid to drive, have your husband drive you. The way most Americans get to the hospital for a birth is by private car or taxi. You can do that also, instead of shlepping my brother out of seder or away from his family.

    And how easy is it to get a cab during a snowstorm?

    You’ve proven my point, when you start talking about snowstorms. Sure, in a snowstorm, if you have no other way, then call an ambulance.

  • #932643

    Gamanit
    Participant

    pba- there are many situations where an all female team would be of use. There are many women capable of handling the entire situation including the transfer without any men. Men cannot possibly understand a woman’s feelings of having a stranger see her in an uncomfortable way. At least that stranger should be a woman. And Health- some woman are perfectly educated and still don’t have time. Ever heard of silent labor?

  • #932644

    superme
    Member

    No I wasn’t but I had a mother who was a cuz a sibling a aunt etc so I know some of them wnt to early to hospital so wassent home!!!

  • #932645

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Member

    Guys, (and gals), Don’t you know by now that PBA and Health by virtue of their extensive awesomeness (and your lowliness) that they will always have an answer for you? That they will always have the super stretched kniatch svara somewhere that somehow backs up their point as right? Please, there is no way that anyone knows anything more than those two. All the people need is some clean cloth and pressure and shoin! all bleeding will be controlled. Henceforth, no one shall have any valid point should PBA or Health disagree with them. And if should be so foolish to insist thathave a point, they will get a severe tongue lashing in the form of Health or PBA pointedly telling them that they are foolish, naeive, and wrong A SECOND TIME!!!

  • #932646

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m glad you got that out of your system. I’m happy to facilitate.

  • #932647

    2scents
    Participant

    Gamanit,

    As someone that responds to emergencies, I can assure that you most people when having a TRUE medical emergency male or female do not care who the tech is.

  • #932648

    2scents
    Participant

    “pba- there are many situations where an all female team would be of use.”

    Such as?

    By the way, what makes you think that the female tech will be an all stranger? it might be the lady you will meet in the grocery or your neighbor.

    Does that make you more comfortable?

  • #932649

    superme
    Member

    2scents- AGREE!!!!!

    oh am I happy that pba and health aren’t hatzolah members

  • #932650

    Health
    Participant

    Mammele -“You guys are so clueless. Most hospitals send women home if they arrive too early, some women have impossibly short labors (not the first child) and driving yourself in an emergency can be deadly, or even impossible if there are injuries.”

    What makes you an expert? Having many kids? If this gives you expertise -why use medical care at all for childbirth? Stay home!

    Noone said drive yourself -how about a spouse, relative, neighbor? And the middle two points are due to lack of education in most cases which I’ve repeatedly said. Hardly anyone has less than an hour long labor.

    “Bleeding, burns, even appendicitis or severe pain can lead to shock, and most issues can unexpectedly escalate.”

    I didn’t know e/o could diagnose Appy’s at home. I thought that was my job. Yes, bleeding, burns, pain or abdomen pain -all can be minor -not needing an ambulance. Get some education.

    “And how easy is it to get a cab during a snowstorm? Thank G-d for Hatzolah.”

    Stop with the one-in-a-million case. This proves nothing.

    “Health: adding women into the Hatzolah mix adds another layer of logistics where the benefit does not outweigh the risks. Even if you’re right with all your solutions, they may cost valuable time to be lost or backfire when things go awry. Bottom line, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

    Wrong -they are trained like e/o else. There are Rabbonim that say it’s a prob of Tzinus -so why object? Not one poster has put up a real logical argument. So perhaps Hatzolah should rethink their position?

  • #932651

    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“Health, You are totally wrong, OB calls used to be BLS, its changed and became an automatically ALS call, in the system and in Hatzoloh.

    Any imminent OB call, will have para,edics on the scene, unless its just a fancy taxi job.”

    I know the protocol -I posted it above. If Medics come to assess instead of EMT’s first – fine. After their assessment they could still hand it over to women and pack out.

    “The reason behind the change if protocol is because most women (not chasidishe that always wait till its to late) that call EMS for a delivery usually have poor prenatal care, therefore the protocol demands that Paramedics be called even though its a BLS skill.”

    Yes, so you need Medics because their is a risk of health to the Newborn. Again, so by your own admission this doesn’t apply in the Frum comunity. So you don’t need medics with Frum women.

    And even if you did, the EN women want to become Medics anyway.

    “I have been reading the arguments of both sides, I really think that this should be discussed with the EMTs and Paramedics that currently do it, see what they have to say.”

    Oh EN did sit down with Hatzolah and they nixed it. And they claim they nixed it for the wrong reasons and I agree with them!

    “Again, in new square, because they must have females on the transport (per the rebbes protocol), they have a hard time finding EMTs and Paramedics for OB calls. A serious married person does not want to sit in an ambulance with females, especially if they are part of the crew.”

    I agree. I guess you still didn’t read my post above. I suggested a different way of doing it.

    “It might solve the issue of “some” female patients being more comfortable, however it raises halachik questions”

    I didn’t know your EMT or Medic cert and Hatzolah plaque made you a Poisek and Not just a Poisek, but a big one at that. New Square had Poiskim that said it’s better for women to do this. EN got the Haskama of the Karlsburg Rov. What Hatzolah said this is against R’Moshe zt’l’s Psak. What they failed to say was in no way was THIS Shailah asked to R’ Moshe. The Shaila back then was should women be allowed to join in general.

  • #932652

    Health
    Participant

    Ctrl Alt Del -“All the people need is some clean cloth and pressure and shoin! all bleeding will be controlled.”

    Excuse me Mr. Nurse in the ICU -is that what I said? Maybe in the ICU e/o needs central lines, but Not in the real world. The fact remains that Most bleeding will be controlled by pressure and a bandage. You don’t need EMT’s or Medics for minor bleeding.

    You felt you must respond with sarcasm and lies like I just pointed out. Why? Do you need to be a member of Hatzolah to validate your existance?

  • #932653

    Health
    Participant

    Gamanit -“And Health- some woman are perfectly educated and still don’t have time. Ever heard of silent labor?”

    I admitted to this in a few posts. But this is the exception instead of the rule. Miyut Shaino Motzuy!

  • #932654

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    if i was ever having a medical emergency i wud be SOO glad 2 have a female trained hatzalla member.. i think theyr doing a huge mitzva and make women and girls waay more comfterable andd make the scary sitch way less akward..

  • #932655

    FIA
    Member

    Most of the posters here are missing two critical points:

    1. Hatzalah does not often take pregnant women to the hospital, as they usually go with their husband or by car service.

    2. Women across America (Jews and Gentiles) use standard 911 EMS service that has a chance that the paramedic and ambulance crew will be male or female. The patient rarely ever knows in advance. Yet there is no major outcry by American women to institute a “female ambulance service” due to “women’s special needs” only addressable by “other women”.

    So, frankly, this whole hubabaloo is much ado about nothing, regarding an unneeded service being promoted for feministic reasons that will rarely be called.

    Does anyone really think frum women are going to call this newfangled women’s ambulance service instead of calling Hatzalah when they are in midst of a medical emergency??

  • #932656

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    FIA: Your point 2 is a good point.

    And you are correct, the only time it will be called is for the free rides to the hospital when in labor, and then–only when it isn’t an emergency.

  • #932657

    superme
    Member

    Fia- perfectly said I agree!!!!! Yosher choach!!!

  • #932658

    Health
    Participant

    FIA -“1. Hatzalah does not often take pregnant women to the hospital, as they usually go with their husband or by car service.”

    What does often mean? Yes, there are plenty of calls that are routine OB transports and some of these are actually childbirth. Don’t make it sound that all their OB calls are actually deliveies.

    “2. Women across America (Jews and Gentiles) use standard 911 EMS service that has a chance that the paramedic and ambulance crew will be male or female. The patient rarely ever knows in advance. Yet there is no major outcry by American women to institute a “female ambulance service” due to “women’s special needs” only addressable by “other women”.”

    I’m not a spokesman for EN, but don’t compare Jewish women to Goyishe ones. EN claims that many Frum women don’t want to be treated during OB emergs by Frum males. Esp. if these Male providers are people they personally know from around the neighborhood. I don’t think they’d go all out to start such an org. if they didn’t have many women who felt this way.

  • #932659

    Health
    Participant

    FIA -“So, frankly, this whole hubabaloo is much ado about nothing, regarding an unneeded service being promoted for feministic reasons that will rarely be called.”

    This part shows your bias -you prob are a Hatzolah member. Saying that they are only doing it for feministic reasons is like saying all Hatzolah members are only doing it for Kovod. I don’t try to read minds whether it’s Hatzolah guys or EN ladies – noone knows why people do things -some mean well and some don’t.

    And how do you call it “uneeded” – these women who started this feel it’s needed?

    My only objection is that this project should Not be supported by the Klal -the women who started it and the women that will use it – should support it. As it is there are many needy Jews and there is not enough Tzedaka money to go around.

  • #932660

    2scents
    Participant

    Please don’t get carries away with psak.

    Each Hatzoloh has their board of rabonim that know the details and are involved in the day to day halachik questions that arise.

    So don’t make it seem as if EN have rabonim and Hatzoloh does not, in fact karlsburger ruv is a very controversial rav.

    Besides they did not approach the rabonim that run Hatzoloh, nor did they approach Hatzoloh. They only approached the media.

    I don’t know why your changing facts, currently in Hatzoloh each OB call is an ALS call, in NY it’s an ALS call, if someone calls 911 medics will show up, they might not transport however they will do the delivery, currently EN only have EMTs which means their care will be on a lower level then if the PT would have called Hatzoloh or 911.

  • #932661

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Tznius isn’t a reason. Women go to male obstetricians all the time.

    I think this is another attempt for women to want to do everything men can. A further erosion of gender differences.

  • #932662

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Women go to male obstetricians all the time.

    But never to my son’s Rebbe or my husband’s chavrusa. Sorry but I have to strongly disagree on that point. I would probably feel uncomfortable with Hatzolo if my hair was uncovered and I couldn’t cover it up.

  • #932663

    interjection
    Participant

    It depends on the woman. I had a very bad experience with a male gyno, in fact I could probably sue he was so unprofessional, and i now try to avoid male ob/gynos as much as i can.

    You are right that many woman are okay having male obs but many aren’t. However, even for the ones who are okay with it, they would never be comfortable if they knew him from outside the office.

  • #932664

    superme
    Member

    If it was a female familiar person I wouldn’t wnt her delIverimg my baby!!

  • #932665

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    interjection: If you think it rose to the level of illegal behavior, you should definitely file a report with the state certifying board. So that he won’t do it to other women.

  • #932666

    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“Each Hatzoloh has their board of rabonim that know the details and are involved in the day to day halachik questions that arise.”

    So did they ask their Rabbonim about this or did they tell them?

    “So don’t make it seem as if EN have rabonim and Hatzoloh does not, in fact karlsburger ruv is a very controversial rav.”

    Name a Rov that paskened it’s better to have males on OB calls than women!

    “Besides they did not approach the rabonim that run Hatzoloh, nor did they approach Hatzoloh. They only approached the media.”

    This is Not true. I didn’t know Rabbonim ran Hatzolah. As far as I know they have a board of Rabbonim that they ask things to, but they don’t run it. Also, EN sat down with Hatzolah org. in NYC and they nixed it with the claim R’ Moshe zt’l Assured it. They must know how to talk with Maecim, because R’ Moshe zt’l never Assured any such thing in his lifetime. He did say women shouldn’t join Hatzolah, but that was in general. He was never was asked about Ob/Gyn calls.

    “I don’t know why your changing facts, currently in Hatzoloh each OB call is an ALS call, in NY it’s an ALS call, if someone calls 911 medics will show up, they might not transport however they will do the delivery, currently EN only have EMTs which means their care will be on a lower level then if the PT would have called Hatzoloh or 911.”

    Enough with the lower level bit. I told you before that Hatzolah could have had these women join and they could send EMT’s or Medics to the call originally and if it’s not an imminent delivery – they could back off and have the women care for the pt. and they could drive the bus.

    Does Hatzolah pay you for being their spokesman? If they don’t, they should. Maybe you can fool most people, but I know what’s really going on.

  • #932667

    Health
    Participant

    rebdoniel -“Tznius isn’t a reason. Women go to male obstetricians all the time.”

    Another Poisek in the CR. Do you have any real reknowned Poiskim that agree with you? And picking a Doc is allowed because you need to get the best one, but there is no difference between EMT’s. At least EN EMT’s did extra training in Ob which regular EMT’s don’t have. I see no reason that women if they prefer to have females shouldn’t have them. They shouldn’t be forced to have a male if they call Hatzolah. I thought this was an org. for the community -are these women part of the community?

    “I think this is another attempt for women to want to do everything men can. A further erosion of gender differences.”

    Another mind reader of the EN women.

  • #932668

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Member

    A freilichin purim to all

    Health “Excuse me Mr. Nurse in the ICU”

    While I am sure there are many fine men in the nursing profession, I am not one of them.

    My post still stands. No matter what the argument, somehow no matter how infinitesimally small the knaitch is, there will be some way that you will find yourself right. Its not an attack. It is sarcastic. But it is what it is.

  • #932669

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Health – Can you please chill out? You get so many posts from people asking, telling and begging you to stop being so harsh, doesn’t that register? No need to give me a nasty retort, just figure out what stops you from having a civil conversation and start working on it. People may have an easier time hearing your point if it isn’t accompanied by unprecedented put downs.

    Maybe I should post my sentences individually to make it easier for you to cut, paste and shred them.

    And I’m putting my finger in my ears so I won’t hear if you answer. This message is for you to digest, not regurgitate.

  • #932670

    Health
    Participant

    Ctrl Alt Del -“My post still stands. No matter what the argument, somehow no matter how infinitesimally small the knaitch is, there will be some way that you will find yourself right. Its not an attack. It is sarcastic. But it is what it is.”

    If it isn’t an attack – then what is it? The purpose of the CR is Not to sit around like women in bungalow colonies (or Lakewood) do and yenta and agree one with another. The attraction for people to come here is the differences of opinion. You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. If you don’t like the fact that I’m argumentive – you have a choice – either say nothing – or respond with a logical argument – or make nasty comments. You choose the latter. Now even if you don’t have a logical response – why Not say nothing? What compels you to make your comments on others? The first two responses don’t show a lack of Middos, while the last one does.

    You see for example -I’m assuming you posted here in this topic because either you agree with Hatzolah about EN or you’re Hatzolah. The reason you don’t respond with a logical argument even if you had one, because you have No fear – you don’t care about right and wrong – you just will do whatever you want because you know the sheep will Not stand up to you.

  • #932671

    Health
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma -“Health – Can you please chill out? You get so many posts from people asking, telling and begging you to stop being so harsh, doesn’t that register? No need to give me a nasty retort, just figure out what stops you from having a civil conversation and start working on it. People may have an easier time hearing your point if it isn’t accompanied by unprecedented put downs.”

    Now I’m sure you mean well, but what I don’t understand is your selective reading. Go back and read the recent posts from page 3 and read all the posts till now. You’ll see that I wasn’t the one that started attackng others and most of my put-downs were just defenses against others. Now if you were my mother or my Mashchiach -I’d understand why you’re commenting on my posts, but that isn’t the case. And since there are far worse “harsh, put-down” posts than mine – why are you singling me out? Do you have some bias against me?

  • #932672

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I’ve never read any teshuva advocating for the exclusive use of male Ob/Gyns. We’re not Muslim fanatics. We believe “Ve Chai Bahem.”

    All EMT’s are more than capable of delivering babies. It’s an important part of their training.

    A professional male doing his duties is not a situation of pritzus. Part of why I am not crazy about the “Yoetzet” movement is that the assumption there is that a male rabbi who looks at a bedika cloth or who discusses matters pertaining to niddah is somehow not oisgehalten; it makes men out to be perverts and sexualizes things that are not sexual in these contexts. There is nothing sexual about delivering a baby, unless people’s mistaken ideas make it out to be that way.

  • #932673

    2scents
    Participant

    Health, you might not have been the one that started the attacking, however you are not shy of attacking others.

    In fact a large part of your arguments are usually personal attacks.

    Interesting that most of your debates for some reason turn personal, for this reason I have decided not to respond to your posts, even though in this topic I am the one in the know and you are clearly not!

  • #932674

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Member

    Health-“I’m assuming you posted here in this topic because either you agree with Hatzolah about EN or you’re Hatzolah”

    Actually neither,This topic interests me because I am a healthcare provider and things that effect or impact the delivery of care interest me. These topics also happen to attract you. Only your replies to hard questions and issues seems to be the spaghetti approach. When you want to know if spaghetti is truly done al-dente, you throw a single one against the wall. If it sticks its done. If it falls, you cook the rest a little longer and test agin in a minute or so.

    Now, after people call you out on your responses or they disagree with you, you resort to flinging another noodle. And then another. And then another. And then the accusations and name calling. Its a pattern. We’re all used to it by now. (At least some of us are) Its amusing (at least to me). So I sit back and I watch the fireworks and I make a small quip on how this entire thread is following a predictable track.

    As a humble suggestion, try to recognize that sometimes other people bring value to the table. You may not agree with them, but try to recognize that other peoples opinions/education/experience lend credence and value to their statements. the title of omnipotence and omniscience has already been taken, by God.

    I have a feeling that I am about to be called a Hatzolah member, an ICU nurse, a PA, an NP, a paramedic, and uneducated boor, a holier-than-thou doofus, a stalker, a lout, an oisvorf, a troll….etc etc etc……. To quote Dilbert “I eagerly await your bizarre and other-worldly response”

  • #932675

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Member

    RebDoniel, thats an interesting take on the Yoetzet thing. But i think that kinda our fault too. Judaism is constantly obsessed with sexuality. We prohibit almost every interaction between men and women (and we seem to frown upon things that women want to do themselves, and can and should do) but yet we seem to make an exception for certain things. Like mochs and bedikahs. Its a little disconcerting. Think about this, imagine being an outsider, you know about our strict separation of the sexes yet, when a question arises about what could arguably be one of the most personal things ever, you have to bring it to a rabbi!! TO EXAMINE IT!! It looks skewed. Now, I really dont care what outsiders may think. But this is fostering a very bad feeling among women within the fold. WE are saying that men are uncontrollable and are seconds away from transgressing halachic sexual violations so why do we allow a man to perform such an intimate examination?? Shouldn’t a woman do that too? So I think we are being complicit in fostering this feeling among the women of our community.

    As an aside IMHO if a woman wants to do something, and its fully within the realm of their doing, why should they be prohibited from it or even frowned upon for doing it.

  • #932676

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I tend to have nuanced, well-thought positions on things.

    I see, ironically, the Yoetzet movement and the Ezras Nashim movement as rooted in a similar mentality- women like feminizing basic societal strictures.

    And if a woman is concerned about fixing her hair when the paramedics arrive- that is simply silly. Don’t most women who believe that they have to cover hair wear a mitpachat in the home?

  • #932677

    miritchka
    Member

    Gamanit: i didnt even think about the safety issue, you are so right.

    popa_bar_abba: omg! i couldnt stop shaking my head in agreement as i read your post! Thank goodness my head is between my shoulders so i wont be affected for years to come about the hatzoloh members coming to stabilize it…;)

    health: gosh, i think my kids would move out if both my husband and i were on hatzoloh and EN!! Truth is, my husband is one of the few members that actually keep to the rule of not discussing anything about a call he goes on, which brings me to my next reason why this is not good for women…;)

    skype: i could be off, but i believe that hatzoloh deliveres babies in about 80% of full trauma calls (preg related calls). If anything, a woman will be greatful as opposed to embarrased to the point where she’d be affected forever. As mentioned by PBA, she shouldnt be using hatzoloh in the first place (unless a real emergency came up). The fact that she had to call should make her embarassed. And yes, i’m a woman who has had children and will have another real soon, iy”h. Be responsible and get to the hospital on time.

    superme: as i mentioned above, i’m a woman and have had children. I too believe that popa_bar_abba and Health are correct in their opinions about women calling hatzoloh/EMS for childbirth.

    Ctrl Alt Del: lol! Although most of the time it comes across that popa_bar_abba and Health are extreme, I have to agree with them here. If you would know the amount of calls that could be given first aid at home and then driven to the hospital without having to call hatzoloh or EMS, you would agree with them too. When my husband comes home on a friday night way after everyone already finished their seudah, and makes a comment about how the call he went on was a frequent flyer who calls hatzoloh over non emergent reasons, it makes me very upset. I’m glad he doesnt go into details or mention names, otherwise i’d really lose the schar i might be getting for him going on calls…

    FIA: +1!

    rebdoniel: “professional male doing his duties is not a situation of pritzus. There is nothing sexual about delivering a baby, unless people’s mistaken ideas make it out to be that way.” +1!

  • #932678

    Gamanit
    Participant

    About a month ago I had a medical emergency and needed to be taken into the hospital. I had male Hatzala members taking me there, and a male physician in the hospital. At the time I didn’t let myself care because I knew my health comes first. I would have wanted female for both though. Yes, I was grateful for Hatzalas help. I would have appreciated a female member even more. PBA- my father would have driven me in, but traffic where I live is so horrendous the only way to get to the hospital in under a half hour is with sirens.

  • #932679

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    miritchka – I am surprised to hear you say that. Do you know how many women don’t go into labor long enough to get to the hospital? Why would you call it irresponsible? Many of my labors started with heavy labor 5 minutes apart and rushing to the hospital still only gave me 10 minutes. I have several friends who had the same thing happen who delivered in street clothes or at home. It is not about responsibility and it is not something to be embarrassed about. A short labor is a bracha, not a busha.

    The time I got to the hospital before my doctor I had a whole group of people rushing in to check on me (instead of the normal one or two) and I found it very uncomfortable. People have very different sensitivity levels toward tznius.

    Like Gamanit said, in time of medical need it is more important to get care from whomever can deliver it, but in non-life threatening situations I certainly would prefer a woman. I don’t think it in ANY way to be pritzus, I just find it extremely uncomfortable.

  • #932680

    Health
    Participant

    rebdoniel -“I’ve never read any teshuva advocating for the exclusive use of male Ob/Gyns. We’re not Muslim fanatics. We believe “Ve Chai Bahem.””

    Excuse me – you obviously didn’t read my posts. I differentiated between Doctors and EMT’s. A Doc you need to have a good relationship with – this can affect the mother’s and baby’s health. So it would be Sakana Nefoshos to use s/o that the pt. isn’t comfortable with. So they can use Male providers. While if a male EMT happens to be on an OB call -yes they are allowed to render care, but if there can be a female instead -why isn’t it preferable to use a female?

    “All EMT’s are more than capable of delivering babies. It’s an important part of their training.”

    And it seems that the EMT’s of EN have more training in Ob than regular EMT’s.

  • #932681

    miritchka
    Member

    Syag Lchochma: I apologize if i offended you. The point i was trying to make was that each woman knows her body and should make sure they get to the hospital and not wait it out. As mentioned in a previous post, being sent home from teh hospital means that your body isnt ready. If someone took all the steps necessary to make it to the hospital on time yet still finds that they cannot mae it, there is no question that they should call for help. I have a close friend who every time she goes to the dr. by her 38th or 39th week, the dr. sends her straight to the hospital. She doesnt even know that she’s in labor until she’s ready to push. Every case is different. Every woman is different. I know that as soon as i reach my 9th month, i arrange to have my children picked up from school or bus stops by neighbors or family and pack a bag for each child that my husband or parents can pick up from my house for the night or day or however long they ofer to keep my child for. I have car service on redial before shabbos and money for the car service prepared in my bag too. I keep my bag in our car only removing it for shabbos. I know i’m doing my part and daven that all goes smoothly.

    Again, i apologize if i offended you or anyone else.

  • #932682

    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“Interesting that most of your debates for some reason turn personal, for this reason I have decided not to respond to your posts, even though in this topic I am the one in the know and you are clearly not!”

    Funny, if you posted this at the Git-go – I might say perhaps there is some truth to it, but you gave me some logical arguments in this topic at the beginning which I refuted. So I tend to believe that you have nothing logical that states Hatzolah shouldn’t have women respond to Ob calls – so you resort to “I am the one in the know and you are clearly not!” The implication is that I don’t know what I’m talking about because you are on Hatzolah and I’m not. This might be true about my knowing everything about Hatzolah, but if the reason that Hatzolah had was Ousgehalten based on some Poisek’s Psak -you would shout this from the rooftops. So the fact that you’re resorting to say -you don’t like responding to me -tells me you/they don’t have a good reason why they aren’t taking on women for these types of calls.

  • #932683

    Health
    Participant

    Ctrl Alt Del -“Actually neither,This topic interests me because I am a healthcare provider and things that effect or impact the delivery of care interest me. These topics also happen to attract you. Only your replies to hard questions and issues seems to be the spaghetti approach. When you want to know if spaghetti is truly done al-dente, you throw a single one against the wall. If it sticks its done. If it falls, you cook the rest a little longer and test agin in a minute or so.

    Now, after people call you out on your responses or they disagree with you, you resort to flinging another noodle. And then another. And then another. And then the accusations and name calling. Its a pattern. We’re all used to it by now. (At least some of us are) Its amusing (at least to me). So I sit back and I watch the fireworks and I make a small quip on how this entire thread is following a predictable track.”

    If your theory was true then there would be No logic in any of my posts. And if you say -“Well there isn’t” -then you should refute my logic with your logic. Since you didn’t do that and all you did was attack me personally this shows that logically I’m not wrong. And you had some alterior motive(s) to put me down because you had the chance.

  • #932684

    2scents
    Participant

    I will repeat something that I already wrote, as an active H Member, there is no tznius issue at all, the providers and the patient have other things at mind when there is true emergency.

  • #932685

    2scents
    Participant

    Health,

    “And it seems that the EMT’s of EN have more training in Ob than regular EMT’s.”

    Care to explain?

  • #932686

    2scents
    Participant

    Syag,

    This is not common, most women have enough time to get to the hospital.

  • #932687

    2scents
    Participant

    miritchka

    “my husband is one of the few members that actually keep to the rule of not discussing anything about a call he goes on”

    Actually this is what most member’s do, discussing the call can be illegal and in most organizations is enough cause to be thrown out.

  • #932688

    2scents
    Participant

    IMO, the only time when females should be needed is when a women needs a 12 lead done, since her chest has to be exposed.

    However, if someone is complaining of chest pain, time should not be wasted, time is muscle.

    Delivering a baby with EMTs around might not be comfortable a pleasant experience. however I cannot see how having women do the delivery any better. in fact the only real thing that will calm the patient is knowing that the techs are well trained and experienced.

  • #932689

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    miritchka – thank you for being so kind, I wasn’t offended, just surprised. I know of so many people it has happened to and I felt bad for people to be thinking of these women as irresponsible. I remember one time needing to rush to the hospital on almost no notice in the middle of the night on Shabbos and by the time I woke my husband up, convinced him that a cab was not an option and waited for him to get dressed, we were almost too late. (The joys of motherhood)

    2scents – you are right, it is not common, but it is not a rare occurance by any means and saying that it indicates a lack of responsibility was not always the case. I didn’t mean to blow it up, I just meant to clarify that it wasn’t a fair statement.

  • #932690

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Member

    Ctrl Alt Del – To quote Dilbert, “I eagerly await your bizarre and other-worldly response”

    Health – “If your theory was true then there would be No logic in any of my posts. And if you say -“Well there isn’t” -then you should refute my logic with your logic. Since you didn’t do that and all you did was attack me personally this shows that logically I’m not wrong. And you had some alterior motive(s) to put me down because you had the chance.”

    Ctrl Alt Del – TOUCHDOWN!! You never fail to deliver. (HAHA no pun intended)

  • #932691

    YW Moderator-73
    Moderator

    I’m going to close this thread if ALL of you don’t cut it out.

    So post your own post saying so. -73

  • #932692

    Health
    Participant

    Ctrl Alt Del – “TOUCHDOWN!! You never fail to deliver. (HAHA no pun intended)”

    And neither do you. How about trying something logical next time?

  • #932693

    2scents
    Participant

    YW Moderator-73

    Untitled-1

    I’m going to close this thread if ALL of you don’t cut it out.

    and I’m going to close the thread if you all do cut it out. -95

    Whats this? politics in the mod shelter?!

  • #932694

    Health
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma -“you are right, it is not common, but it is not a rare occurance by any means and saying that it indicates a lack of responsibility was not always the case. I didn’t mean to blow it up, I just meant to clarify that it wasn’t a fair statement.”

    This was exactly the point. E/o in medicine knows that these labors do occur, but it’s not the majority. Even in EMS they aren’t the majority -so policy isn’t based on minorities. It would make good sense to educate Frum people of when to go to the hospital – when to call EMS, etc. This would eliminate a lot of Ob EMS calls. It would be good policy for Hatzolah to have women responding to Ob/gyn calls because the majority of these calls could be well served by women!

  • #932695

    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“I will repeat something that I already wrote, as an active H Member, there is no tznius issue at all, the providers and the patient have other things at mind when there is true emergency.”

    I’m sorry, but the Rabbonim in New Square and the Karlsburg Rov differ from your opinion. Do you have any Rov that concurs with your opinion?

    73- looks like they fear me more. You can do the honors of closing it.

    I was actually talking about the “na na na boo boo” and the “HA HA GOTCHA,” but I think it is about time anyway.

    Well, I was talking about talking.

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