Hawking is dead

Home Coffeeroom In The News Hawking is dead

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  • #1489071

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    What kind of punishment do you think he’ll get in the next world

    (Not just pirud as we see by bilam)

    #1489085

    catch yourself
    Participant

    So many possibilities…

    באבוד רשעים רינה

    #1489094

    Joseph
    Participant

    Good riddance. May all his ilk drop dead.

    #1489124

    limnos yameinu
    Participant

    1- Rav Avigdor Miller ztl said that these people are the greatest evildoers as they give reason for a lawless society.Without G-d,no conscience and a person can do whatever he wants.In that way he destroyed much more than the most infamous of despots.
    2- Rav Dovid Gottlieb Shlita explains how Hawking used his name to give a philosophical reason to deny G-d r”l.The philosophical idea has been discussed and rebutted, but since he has clout, the words were listened to, even though he did not give any scientific explanation And went over to a subject that wasn’t at all his forté.
    He did give more understanding to “mAh rabu maasecha Hashem, albeit unintentionally, and I would imagine some of his discoveries were helpful either in the medical world or for different inventions that help people.From a human perspective this good is dwarfed by the evil of creating more atheists and continuing to give the world an allowance for all sorts of depravity.That being said, there is only One Judge, and it is He who decides.

    #1489154

    TGIShabbos
    Participant

    Imagine if Hawking spent his life with no physical or verbal limitations— the amount of damage he would have caused against Israel, Jews, and all nations who believe in a God. As he a Pro-Palestinian and BDS supporter, I am not tearing my shirt for him today.

    #1489199

    limnos yameinu
    Participant

    To tgishabbos
    Thank you for reminding me that he was also directly evil with bds and pro Palestinians.That’s an infinite addition to his already infinitely full plate.absolute evil

    #1489203

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “said that these people are the greatest evildoers as they give reason for a lawless society”

    what a smart thing to say. Most criminals are without doubt students of theoretical physics , and of course history has shown us how until Hawking came along all of mankinnd was theistic which obviously means they were the noblest of people, not to mention Tanach is full of references to the utter lawfulness of polytheistic societies.

    Truly a profound and obviously true statment. Thanks for sharing

    #1489205

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    So what punishment is he getting?

    The feeling of being sucked into a black hole?

    #1489215

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    What’s with all the Hawking hate?

    #1489222

    GAON
    Participant

    “Imagine if Hawking spent his life with no physical or verbal limitation”

    I disagree – a HUGE part of his celebrity status was NOT his brilliance, rather it was the fact of his situation.

    Although he was brilliant, he should have stuck to physics and out of politics and religion.

    In any case, there was plenty what to admire about him… Im Yesh Chachmah B’Goyim Tamin..

    #1489249

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, if you’d look hard enough you might find some things to admire about Hitler or Stalin too.

    #1489245

    Health
    Participant

    CA -“What kind of punishment do you think he’ll get in the next world”

    Why don’t you ask the same thing about Einstein?
    Hawking has a good excuse – he was a Baal Yisurim!

    #1489247

    limnos yameinu
    Participant

    To ubiquitin
    He,and all those with leadership positions who propose a G-dless world are well known by all.Their exact theories are wholly unimportant.The polytheistic leaders in their society also were to blame for much ot their societies evils.Thanks for the compliment.

    #1489251

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Most criminals are without doubt students of theoretical physics

    No shaychus.

    and of course history has shown us how until Hawking came along all of mankinnd was theistic which obviously means they were the noblest of people, not to mention Tanach is full of references to the utter lawfulness of polytheistic societies.

    We all know that some of the biggest atrocities have been committed in the name of G-d, but without belief in Him, there’s nothing compelling morality.

    #1489254

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What’s with all the Hawking hate?

    Are we supposed to love BDS supporting kofrim?

    #1489301

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “He,and all those with leadership positions who propose a G-dless world are well known by all.”

    You live in a dream world if you think most criminals have heard of hawking. In fact I’d wager that there are far more criminals who profess to believe in God than there are criminals who are atheists .

    As DY points out “We all know that some of the biggest atrocities have been committed in the name of G-d”

    which is of course true (except for the “We all know” part).
    Though “but without belief in Him, there’s nothing compelling morality.”
    Histroy has proven that even with belief in Him there is nothing compelling morality either. and even without beleif in him social norms a desire to protect yourself ie. even if there is no afterlife r”l we are all better off if we all agree not to kill /steal/hurt each other.

    If I am wrong, I would love to see any evidence demonstrating increased lawlessness that in any way correlates with lack of belief in a Borei Olam.

    #1489346

    yitzyk
    Participant

    This is a quote from him:

    “I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail,” he said. “There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.”

    Would you say he is in for a surprise??

    #1489356

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Why don’t you ask the same thing about Einstein?
    Mi think Einstein still believe in Hashem albeit to a small degree

    #1489365

    GAON
    Participant

    J,
    “Gaon, if you’d look hard enough you might find some things to admire about Hitler or Stalin too.”

    You really think its the same?

    I guess the Rambam should have consulted with you when he admired AND quoted Aristotle.

    I don’t really see the difference. Both are Kofrim. But the difference is, the Rambam admired Chachma and some here have no clue what to even consider to admire.

    In a way Aristotle was much worse and so was Einstein…

    You do NOT have to LOVE him but you can not deny his other qualities, hence I stand by my statement.

    יש חכמה בגוים – תאמן does not mean Goyim who believe in Hashem…

    The Rambam writes:

    “ודע, כי הדברים אשר אומר אותם באלו הפרקים… הם עניינים מלוקטים מדברי החכמים … ומדברי הפילוסופים גם כן, ומחיבורי הרבה בני אדם
    . ושמע האמת ממי שאמרה”

    (‘שמונה פרקים – הקדמ)

    #1489454

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, Hawking was much worse than Aristotle. So your comparison is way off. Aristotle wasn’t even an atheist, aside from the many other far worse attributes of Hawking compared to Aristotle.

    Secondly. and in addition to the above, Hawking contributed nothing useful to mankind. What emesdike חכמה do you attribute to Hawking?!

    And that’s all aside from Hawking being a kofer gomor, aside from him being a rasha gomor and aside from him being an anti-semite gomor.

    #1489456

    The little I know
    Participant

    My issue with Hawking (not minimizing the many others) is that he blasted his ideas about subjects completely outside his domain. That is a huge problem. You would not consult you Rov when your washing machine needs repair. Why go to a physicist with questions about creation or politics? He had no right casting himself as expert in territory where he didn’t belong. That is a problem many of us have also. We can seek brochos from our Torah scholars, but need to direct seeking advice from those expert in the field.

    #1489466

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Health,

    Einstein is BH in gan eden.

    This רשע is not

    #1489595

    yitzyk
    Participant

    To The Little I Know – yes, when it comes to repairing a washing machine, you go to an expert. But when asking advice – even if it is social and not directly halacha related, one should still ask Gedolim. Their way of thinking is conditioned by all of the Torah that they learn, and their advice is what we call “Daas Torah”. That term doesn’t refer to a Halachic answer, which is a psak. It means an opinion from one who is infused with Torah.

    Even when it comes to washing machine repair, you could ask your Rav (assuming you are not just wasting his time.) The sage advice he will give you would be to call a repairman! He might also point out what sins you could be doing that lead to such unfortunate breakdowns of appliances! (Today’s equivalent of stains on a Beged that won’t wash out – like Tzoraas?)

    #1489617

    Joseph
    Participant

    YitzyK: Well said.

    #1489615

    Health
    Participant

    Yitzchokm -“Health – Einstein is BH in gan eden.”

    You must be joking! Hawking is more likely to be in Gan Eden, than Einstein!
    Einstein was a Kofer.
    The proof :
    “I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.” He went further in telling an interviewer that he was, “fascinated by Spinoza’s Pantheism.”

    #1489620

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @coffeeaddict Einstein was very open about his beliefs. He maintained that it’s possible Hashem exists, but he refused to believe in Him. He really disliked religion in general too.

    For all those calling him a kofer, nu. That’s unfortunately most of the world these days. Good thing it’s not the kefira that would be chayav misa like Hinduism or certain aspects of X-tianity. If he were a X-tian would that automatically make him a better person? Hitler Y”S was an X-tian last I checked.

    As for his “anti-Semitism” that’s everyone getting offended over nothing. He expressed neutral support for the Israel-Palestinian conflict in order to keep away from political discussion. He did a lot of work with Israeli scientists, but he also one time may have caved to BDS pressure. Since it’s a hot topic, neutrality is impossible and he got blasted from all sides for “siding with the Zionists/Palestinians”. You guys sound like all those liberals who get all offended when a person states that there are only two genders or whatever narischkeit it is these days.

    #1489647

    Meno
    Participant

    Health, please explain how believing in “Spinoza’s god” is worse than denying the existence of God altogether?

    #1489670

    Todros Gimpel
    Participant

    It’s very interesting to read the transcript of the Bais Din Shel Maalah in session deciding whether or not to put Einstein in the Kaf Hakelah or not.

    As far as that Hawking SR”Y, a big part of his public agenda was to deny and degrade every basic tenet of Emunah.
    I’m sorry ubiquitin, someone who denies Hashem’s existence is a criminal of the worst kind, and both a non-Jew or a Jew would get Missas Bais Din for it.
    It’s true that these criminals don’t hurt other people (directly), but why is hurting Malchus Shmayim so small a sin in your eyes? Isn’t that the ultimate purpose of the world’s creation?

    #1489674

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The defenders aren’t getting it:

    Hawking and other celebrity physicists have created a kind of cult of science. They deny religion, but then create outlandish theories like wormholes, the universe being shaped like a folded piece of paper (none of their theories have any evidence by the way) and the naive college students eat it up. They deny religion on the basis of lack of evidence, but then believe everything these guys say without evidence. People underestimate how dangerous this is. We have an authority that a huge portion of the population considers infallible. In the middle ages it was the Church, now it’s celebrity science.

    So, when they say the Jews are evil and we should all be pro-Hamas, people don’t question them. Why would they? They think they’re infallible. Baruch Hashem, this particular one is no longer with us.

    #1489793

    GAON
    Participant

    “Health, please explain how believing in “Spinoza’s god” is worse than denying the existence of God altogether?”

    Of course its NOT – but in a way for a Jew (i.e. Einstein) it is…

    #1489812

    GAON
    Participant

    “Hawking contributed nothing useful to mankind. What emesdike חכמה do you attribute to Hawking?!”

    Thanks for proving us how knowledgeable you are in the works of Science….

    #1489669

    The little I know
    Participant

    yitzyk:

    I personally consult with gedolim on many things. I have discovered that one’s status as a gaon and talmid chochom is not synonymous with expertise in everything. I will not cite specific rabbonim and their areas of ignorance (not meant to be degrading, just factual), as that would constitute lashon horah. Generally, they will dismiss the questions respectfully and redirect them to experts. I have no problem with seeking advice on subjects that the rabbonim know as areas of expertise and experience. However, I am appalled when I observe some functioning outside their realm, and giving poor guidance. This has happened with well recognized rabbonim, not just young less experienced ones.

    I am also acquainted with many rabbonim, including Roshei Yeshivos, Menahalim, Rebbes, Poskim, and Dayanim who frequently consult with professionals in many fields, and make referrals to their expertise. As they state openly, they lack the expertise in the practical aspects of the shailoh, and defer to those who do have it. As for social issues, I revere those who have opinions based on a broad range of knowledge (I am not including secular or college training), and have no problem seeking their advice or input. I am likewise acquainted with several who give advice about medical issues, mental health issues, kids at risk, and shalom bayis, giving notoriously bad guidance because these areas are outside of their expertise.

    Most rabbonim possess smicha, and most smichos are based on Yoreh Deah. That qualifies them to respond to many kitchen shailos. This might not include shailos noshim, nor might they be qualified to pasken a question about the kashrus of a mikvah. As long as they function within the realm of their expertise, they are a great service to Klal Yisroel. When they go outside that line, their advice may not be better than that which is obtained from a stranger in line at the bakery for challos on Friday. Don’t start with the Ruach Hakodesh stuff.

    #1489776

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “Hawking was much worse than Aristotle”

    Hawking did NOT write books claiming kefira. Kefira statements were just made in interviews — as his personal belief ,as per Science. Aristotle’s philosophy had much more of an impact that he will ever have, and so did Einstein’s Agnostic beliefs, have much more of an impact at the time.

    All claimed Atheists are/were Atheists (which is most of EU) regardless of his beliefs. Thus I don’t see “evilness” in the picture.

    It is simple – he was a brilliant scientists and knew little in regard to philosophy etc, and should have kept it like that. Same with A Einstein.

    #1489925

    hml
    Participant

    What took him so long? He was virulently antisemitic, anti-Israel & a vicious, nasty person. No loss…. on the contrary.

    #1490576

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon:

    “Health, please explain how believing in “Spinoza’s god” is worse than denying the existence of God altogether?”

    Of course its NOT – but in a way for a Jew (i.e. Einstein) it is…

    How is it worse for a Jew to believe “Spinoza’s god” than for the Jew to believe G-d does not exist?

    “Hawking contributed nothing useful to mankind. What emesdike חכמה do you attribute to Hawking?!”

    Thanks for proving us how knowledgeable you are in the works of Science….

    That’s a non-answer because you have no answer. Hawking’s contributed zero emesdike חכמה to mankind.

    “Hawking was much worse than Aristotle”

    Hawking did NOT write books claiming kefira. Kefira statements were just made in interviews — as his personal belief ,as per Science.

    This is hooey. Kefira is kefira whether he writes them in books or expresses them in mass media interviews for the public. Hawking was worse than Aristotle.

    #1490571

    GAON
    Participant

    Pops,

    1.) He really didn’t make statements “outside of his domain”

    In a way it was. I agree he spoke from a scientific perspective, however, there is a entire philosophical aspect as well, which he should have taken in consideration ? (e.g. why are we here? why only this planet etc) . Religion was really never based on”scientific” evident it is “believing”…

    We believe, as that is the way it was handed down to us by our forefathers, going back all the way to Moses and the revelation our forefathers witnessed at Mt Sinai.

    2.) “The idea that religion is necessary for morality is ridiculous”

    There are many strong arguments disputing that as well. I am speaking from a philosophical perspective, like “why do I really have to care about anyone else” each person is on his own, etc. Who decides what is correct or not?

    “the least suffering and highest quality of life for their inhabitants” the same research will prove, these people are NOT happy with their life of materialism. So how do you define a “quality life” ? Research has proven there are many religious societies, who live much more of a meaningful and happy life, despite living a very simple lifestyle. What is the rate of suicide in these “highest quality of life” countries?

    3.) Agreed.

    4.) “Einstein was for all practical purposes and Atheist”
    That is incorrect. Perhaps you can call him an Agnostic, but he never declared himself as an Atheist.

    I will quote his words:
    “There is harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, yet there are people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me to support such views.”
    (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University, page 214)

    “This firm belief in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God.”
    (Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions (New York: Random House 1954), p.255

    #1489960

    agutyar
    Participant

    Hawking was only able to speak because of an Israeli invention. The littlest drop of hakaras hatov should have kept him from using his Israeli voice box to speak against Israel. You see from him what Chalzal say, that someone who is ungrateful to people will wind up being ungrateful to H-shem as well. That a person whose body was so dependent on others should not recognize from Whom all his success came is unbelievable. It just goes to show that a person can have the greatest brain the world and still not have any sechel. Like that famous doctor who said he dissected a hundred bodies and didn’t find a single soul, or the Russian sputnik who said he was in outer space and didn’t see G-d. Such fools!

    #1490065

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Hitler YMS was not a christian, In fact he hated relgiion and they hated especially the catholic church. Just because they might have born christian, doesnt make them one

    Himmler YMS had really weird relgious beliefs involving some germanic religion

    #1490122

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @Neville ChaimBerlin: Your statement is just a brag about how ignorant of science you actually are. Is this what Yiddishkeit is about? Being proud of ones ignorance of secular sciences?

    #1490466

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Todros
    “I’m sorry ubiquitin, ”

    Absolutely no apology is necessary it is ok that you misunderstood the conversation at hand, I’m more than happy to explain.

    “someone who denies Hashem’s existence is a criminal of the worst kind, and both a non-Jew or a Jew would get Missas Bais Din for it.”
    Aside from that not technically being true. That isnt what limnos said , and is not what we are discussing. what he said was, and I quote “people are the greatest evildoers as they give reason for a lawless society”

    “It’s true that these criminals don’t hurt other people (directly),”
    great, so we agree

    “but why is hurting Malchus Shmayim so small a sin in your eyes?”
    It isnt

    ” Isn’t that the ultimate purpose of the world’s creation?”
    Its hard to keep up most of my rebeeieim have said learning Torah is the ultimate purpose, then the Gemara implies the point of learning is “shmevi lidei maaseh” Ive also heard being mikadesh shem shomayim among some other mitzvos though I have never heard that “hurting Malchus shomayim” is the “ultimate purpose of the world’s creation” at any rate I’m not sure what this has to do with anything

    #1490544

    Eli Y
    Participant

    Gao: “Aristotle’s philosophy had much more of an impact.., heresy.., Kefira..,”

    In my understanding, according to the Rambam, the Aristotelian philosophy of the universe and Judaism’s understanding are equal in terms of philosophical proof. The core difference is that we believe in Creation Ex Nihilo while Aristotle argued that both Hashem and the universe have always existed.

    I agree that a Yid should beware this difference, but your hatred of Aristotle and your embracing of Hawking is curious. Maybe there’s something else you would like to share? Maybe you have a family member with ALS?

    #1490380

    The little I know
    Participant

    popsi:

    Item by item.

    1. Hawkins was not a philosopher. Science does not prove the existence or non-existence of G-d. Science only studies the physical world, and cannot tell you a single solitary thing about a spiritual world. There are studies that absolutely prove that prayer helps healing in the medical world. However, all that science can say about that is that it observes this phenomenon. Zero explanation (at least anything useful) as to how and why. He was outside of his domain in addressing the origin of the world. In fact, so would we be. We do not know that the Hashem created the world. We are maaminim, and we believe the Torah as coming directly from Hashem at Har Sinai. We were there in neshomoh only, and our physical ears and memory do not access that. To the degree we believe, we feel we know, and that is our mitzvah. In fact, the Rambam guides us to enhance emunoh by observing the wonders of the world, not otherwise explainable in a truly rational sense by the “scientific” approach. Science advances theories, but cannot prove any form of causality to determine anything about the origin of the world. His statements on that are outside of his domain.

    2. I explain morality the way a court once explained what constitutes schmutz. “You know it when you see it.” You are correct that morality is not necessarily determined by religion. The “religion” of Islam advocates murder, terror, dishonesty, etc. Can anyone in their right mind call that moral? One can take some pretty good guesses at the universal tenets of morality. Religion becomes the context into which these moral values fit. No, it is not determined by popular vote. I believe that if we did not have a higher source to guide us about moral values, we would likely construct them on our own, and follow the most banal and primitive drives we possess. We would see homo sapiens being glorified chimpanzees, not the human that was created in Tzelem Elokim.

    3. Visiting Israel and working with Israelis does not indicate or constitute love or even tolerance of Jews. He did those things for his own needs. As long as he was being accepted to make those visits and work together, he did so. We know more about Israel’s acceptance of him that his acceptance of Israel.

    4. Not sure the relevance of Einstein’s connection with religion. Born a Jew, raised a Jew, died a Jew. No, he was not observant, and his parents weren’t either. His Jewish education was very limited, and he lacked the experience of someone transmitting Torah MiSinai as is heralded in Pirkei Avos. He refused to disavow a recognition of G-d, though organized religion was not important to him. I don’t see a connection to Hawkins. Most atheists reach their conclusion, and modify the input of information to accommodate it. I won’t direct anyone to review atheistic writings. But I walked away from several casual debates wondering how they could buy into their positions with such weak arguments. Easy if you shoot the arrow and then paint the target afterward.

    #1490599

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    If I am wrong, I would love to see any evidence demonstrating increased lawlessness that in any way correlates with lack of belief in a Borei Olam.

    Who’s making the laws? If same gender marriage (or partial birth abortion) is a law due to a non belief in Hashem then it’s a crazy law

    #1490629

    limnos yameinu
    Participant

    Yimach shmo vizichro vineemach shimo meelihazkiro.That must be the Outlook if someone here actually wrote he was good.Previously I tried to find some saving grace, but not if someone who clearly denied Hashem could actually be praised by someone here.

    #1490628

    GAON
    Participant

    ” Maybe there’s something else you would like to share? Maybe you have a family member with ALS?”

    Interesting, the only reason you can find someone not understanding the hatred toward Harkins is the above. Otherwise he had no qualifications to embrace…

    (Perhaps there are indeed some who appreciated his scientific writings and his accomplishments…)

    #1490627

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    CA
    “If same gender marriage (or partial birth abortion) is a law due to a non belief in Hashem then it’s a crazy law”

    1) It is hard to imagine that that is what was meant by
    “these people are the greatest evildoers as they give reason for a lawless society.Without G-d,no conscience and a person can do whatever he wants.In that way he destroyed much more than the most infamous of despots.”

    2) I dont think partial birth abortions and same gender relationships are more common among atheists.

    3)( borrowing off of another point made) the Taliban, crusaders, inquisition, islamic terrorists are all quite religious and all profess to believe in God do you believe that their Religious views led to an overall more moral society than that visioned by say Einstein or Hawking’s followers?

    #1490619

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Gaon:

    “Health, please explain how believing in “Spinoza’s god” is worse than denying the existence of God altogether?”

    Of course its NOT – but in a way for a Jew (i.e. Einstein) it is…

    How is it worse for a Jew to believe “Spinoza’s god” than for the Jew to believe G-d does not exist?”

    “than for the Jew to believe G-d does not exist?”

    Hawkins is NOT a Jew and that is what I was referring to. Einstein as a Jew has obligations, whereas Hawkins as a Non-Jew has non…he is not worse than all Ovdei A”Z or Greeks..

    “Hawking contributed nothing useful to mankind. What emesdike חכמה do you attribute to Hawking?!”

    Thanks for proving us how knowledgeable you are in the works of Science….

    That’s a non-answer because you have no answer. Hawking’s contributed zero emesdike חכמה to mankind.

    No comment. Do your own research.

    “Hawking was much worse than Aristotle”

    Hawking did NOT write books claiming kefira. Kefira statements were just made in interviews — as his personal belief ,as per Science.

    This is hooey. Kefira is kefira whether he writes them in books or expresses them in mass media interviews for the public. Hawking was worse than Aristotle.”

    There is obviously a huge diff when someone devoted his philosophy to Kefira and, had an impact through it ,championing his beliefs, than one merely stating his scientific beliefs that he has derived via his research as a scientists.

    In any case, I was not comparing both as in a Darga level, the comparison was in regard of my original statement :
    יש חכמה בגוים – תאמן and the Rambams approach to Chachmos Umos HaOlam.
    And in my opinion I do not see the major diff, you can make the same argument against Aristotle – in reality BOTH should be respected.

    “your hatred of Aristotle and your embracing of Hawking is curious.”

    Eli –
    Read the above…(Asides, I think you are confusing Plato’s beliefs with Aristotle. See Sefer HaMorah Vol 2 13-21)

    #1490667

    laskern
    Participant

    See the Seder Hadoros 3300, Plato was educated by Yermiah Hanovi.

    #1490660

    laskern
    Participant

    See the Seder Hadoros 3442 that Aristotle at the end of his life regretted to Alexander the Great that he didn’t burn all his books.

    #1490663

    laskern
    Participant

    Einstein’s Theory of Relativity can be used to explain many things in the Torah לסבר את האוזן. For example the meaning of יש מאין energy.

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