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This past week, I was due for a new bottle of bourbon. Over the summer, I had Ridgemont 1792. And I really liked it. And waddya know? The store has it, and its within my budget!
So that was my nisayon; whether or not I choose to use a heter, just because it suits me.
BPT
Im proud of you, way to go. The Emes is, if one is determined enough, he can go Heter shopping and keep ever Kuladik shitah in everything. However such a person is likely on a slippery slope to a non mitzvah observant lifestyle.
Talking about a story with a Yarmulka, I hear a really good one. There was a bright Jewish guy who passed his bar and was interviewing at various prestigious Law Firms for a job. Well he has an internal struggle if he should wear his Yarmulka or not and decides that its better not to wear it and he will have a better chance at landing a top job at a top firm.
Long story short he gets interviewed by a very big prestigious firm and the interviewer likes him. He is ready to give him a job, however the policy of the firm was that all new hires had to meet with one of the senior partners. Well the new recruit excitedly enters the office of the senior partner and he sees a nice Orthodox Jew sitting in the chair. The senior partner says “you are a bright fellow and on merit you would deserve the job, but someone who is not strong in his beliefs and is willing to bend the rules doesnt have integrity and is not cut out for this company, we need real men here.”
2 lessons one can learn:
1. These days any Jew can go far wearing a Yarmulka and even having a beard.
2. Bending the rules and seeking Heterim will not pay off in the long run.
Additionally,
Wow- impressive
I hope your son is able to internalize the message
So basically, you think everyone should always follow the more machmir shitah? Are you going to start following Beis Shammai’s opinions?
You ask your Rav. That’s all. In the story you wrote, the Rav told the guy there’s a heter, but it’s not preferable. So, he didn’t follow it. If your Rav says the bourbon is 100% ok, there’s no reason not to listen to his psak. I’ve asked shailos where my Rav differed from some prominent Rabbonim. He said something was 100% ok, while some other Rabbonim hold it’s assur. I listened to my Rav. Had he told me “it’s a machlokes, there is who to rely on for a heter”, I probably would have been machmir. It really depends on how the psak is given over.
It doesn’t only depend on the psak, it also depends on “ve azoi mehalt zach”. Even though a RAV says its OK but your father didn’t do it or held it was not ok, you can still sit on the fence on certain things and choose to be machmir. Things are not always black and white and for many people there are lots of various shades of gray in the middle. There are many times when my kids came home and said “My Rebbe said” or even when they were older and married and said “I asked my Rav and he said…” but I would say that Zaidy didn’t hold from that, or neither Zaidy did it that way. So if my son chose to follow his Rav that was up to him. In many cases he did, in many cases he thought it over and continued in the way his grandparents and parents did it.
Feif Un
If you are talking to me with “So basically, you think everyone should always follow the more machmir shitah”
then I would respond that a person should go with the Roiv or mainstream Shita. A heter is usually a das yachid or a few yeschidim and usually those shitos themselves will always add disclaimers like its best to be machmir but bshas hadchak….
Lets face it, in most situations the Heters we look for are just to make life a little more convenient. Its nothing really necessary. Im not talking about a case where you already did something and now need a Heter to make it ok. But Lchatchila to look for Heterim on things as your mahalach in Yiddishkiet, thats bad news.
It’s an attitude one has to be aware of. So easy to chose the easier choice. As well not hard to find heterim.
The ikur is also to stick with one rov. One can’t go fishing..
what does a bottle of Ridgemont 1792 cost!?
nevermind
i thought it was actually bottled in 1792.
pretty ridiculous thought on my part
i looked it up
its about $30
1792 is when kentucky became a state
“If your Rav says the bourbon is 100% ok, there’s no reason not to listen to his psak.”
And that holds true for EVERY area of halachah. Aseh l’cha rav is a commandment in the mishnah and it is there for a reason. Even if every gedol in the world disagrees with your rav, you follow your rav and not the gedolim as long as he has legitimate semichah and has a connection to the mesorah.
“someone who needed to attend a conference and was unsure about whether or not to wear his yarmulka”
I just finished attending a professional conference in another city, one with a tiny frum community. I gave two talks at the conference, on consecutive days, the first time I’ve ever done that. And I wore my black velvet yarmulka while giving both talks. I also insisted that the talks not be on or close to Shabat. At this conference attended by thousands of professionals I did not see anyone else in a yarmulke. I am proud to be a Jew and am willing to show it.
” I would respond that a person should go with the Roiv or mainstream Shita”
Very few of us are sufficiently learned to even determine what the rov is in any particular question in a reasonable time. My own rav’s rav was an acknowledged gedol and he always follows him when he has a mesorah from him — on the leniencies and on the stringencies. Not only is that consistent with the halachic process, it preserves mesorah for the future! Some day, someone else might need my rav’s leniencies.
I’m proud you’re a Jew too!
BP Totty you did the right thing. May it be a Zchus for you!
WIY, a nice story, but law firm hiring does not work that way.
Homeowner
Maybe I got a few details wrong, but that was the bottom line of the story and how it happened. Im not so familiar with how law firm hiring works so maybe you can fill me in.
WIY, there are a few errors but the key one is that hiring decisions are made by committee.
Homeowner
Its possible there was a committee in the story I didnt get every exact detail down to memory. Thanks for the correction.
Those who consistently are Machmir on something that they have a Psak on will inevitably end up being Makil on Bal Tosif.
BP Totty, thanks for the clarification, because otherwise I too would have feared what message you were giving your son.
The Hamodia articles were interesting, in context. Yes, there’s the (apocryphal?) story of the guy who hid his yarmulke on route to an interview, last minute decision, and did NOT get the job due to a perception that he wouldn’t stick to his principles.
OTOH, last year Rabbi Reisman spoke about nisyonos of the work place. Didn’t advocate ditching the yarmulke but evidently, the way he spoke it may still be an issue for some. But as time goes by, there are probably progressively fewer people for whom this is so.
Tzippi
Let’s get real. Some of the wealthiest Jews are Chassidim, I know of quite a few who have the full Chassidish garb, long beard Rekel…one fellow I’m thinking of can’t even speak English clearly he is so Chassidish yet he sits on Board Meetings with non Jews and they respect him. Look at of our grandparents who didn’t give in to the nisayon of working on Shabbos all of them had Parnassah and many become big time millionaires!
You don’t gain by sacrificing your Yidishkiet.
BPT
By the way thanks for letting me know of where to keep Heterim. Its always confusing figuring out which pocket to put them in. 😉
WIY, I am a proud granddaughter of grandparents who managed to keep Shabbos. But there are reliable heterim given under extenuating circumstances for yarmulkes. Of course, each person has to ask, and be prepared to be told he doesn’t have the option.
Wouldn’t the one asking the shaila be expecting to follow the psak? Wouldn’t it be a wasted shaila to do otherwise?
looks to me like bp was interested in information as to what had changed regarding the status of bourbon. doesnt seem like he actually asked a shaila.
but there is also such a thing as thinking things over, or changing your mind, or dealing with internal struggles, or improving your character or working on prishus
Tzippi
I guess you are technically correct that there are extenuating circumstances. However I am strongly of the belief that you can’t be matzliach and you won’t have a siman bracha by being involved in anything which requires you to lower your standards of observance. Heterim Shmeterim. Hashem runs the world and He decides who to give Parnassah to and how much. Its illogical to think Hashem will reward you with Parnassah for lowering your standards of Yiddishkiet.
40+ years ago my wife worked for a Yekkeh a real Mesiras Nefesh Yid for his Mesoreh. As part of his Mesiras Nefesh he didn’t wear a Yarmulkeh @ work on 47th St. when all his associates, employees,etc. did.
His onesh/schar? At least one of his children wears a Bekishe. His grandchildren.. ??? I lost contact ages ago
WIY, none of that story is true b/c the senior partner would never ever open up his firm to a huge lawsuit by discriminating in hiring decisions based on religious observance.
i never had full hatzlacha with any project wher “b’di’eved”was relied upon.and i have been involved in countless projects over the years.on the other hand…i have seen tremendous results where every single thing is handled in a way that is 100%l’chatchila.THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING.
Wow, that’s a nice story.(OP)
I also had a “test” this past week. I was getting nauseaus and hungry as usual, and on the run out of my neighborhood, where there were no kosher yiddisher groceries. So I went into a convenience store and saw a brand name of chips, with a hecher but without the bishul.
I decided in this case, since I am legitamitely in need I should just buy them and ok so I will feel a bit guilty.
But in the end I am happy to say that I decided its not right and found salty nut snacks anyways which were ok in the next isle.
i was very grateful i didnt do it.
mandy
Its a true story. Besides you really think some recent graduate shnuck trying to get a job would go to the trouble of taking a senior partner of a prestigious law firm to court? If he loses which he likely will he will be in such debt and never get hired by anyone!
I think there are different levels of ‘heter’. Sometimes the heter given is “usually not allowed, but this case is different”- probably perfectly fine to rely on such a heter, maybe even a good idea; then there’s “technically you can/there is what to rely on- but better not to”- in which case, you should think long and hard before going ahead. Heterim are important, and following a heter does not mean one is weak, lazy, or looking for convenience; more important is that you read between the lines of the heter (like the above examples) and that you don’t shop for heterim- as in, you will follow the heter you got, but you will also follow the issurim of this Rav.
I also have a nisayon story: I am married to a sefardi and our Rav holds that sheitals are assur (this is a hard psak for me to follow as I grew up ashkenazi). Anyway, when I was interviewing for a professional job, I was considering asking for a heter to wear a sheital to interviews and to work, should I land a job. I figured it would be an easy heter to get, since so many poskim hold that sheitals are fine and even preferable. My Rav did say I can rely on those psakim, but left me with the following thought: “If Hashem wants you to land a job, you will land it no matter what you wear on your head; if He does not want you to get a job, you won’t get it even with the fanciest, most natural wig.” I decided to interview in a tichel, and I got the job! All my worrying about a tichel setting me back turned out to be unfounded and I’m really glad I understood what my Rav really thought.
There is no need to get into debt to bring that lawsuit. If the facts are as you state them, every attorney would be happy to take such a case on a contingent fee basis. The pay out would be astronomical and it wouldn’t even go to trial as the law firm would settle quickly.
Don’t believe every idiot story you hear.
Mandy
The story was said by a Rav in a shiur and told over to him either by the person it happened to or to someone who that person told it to.
This isn’t religious discrimination. A law firm can say they won’t hire someone if they have reason to doubt their integrity. Besides the guy was frum I doubt he wanted to make a stink out of it and let everyone know what a “proud” Jew he is.
Here is the original story as appeared in the Los Angeles Times.
April 06, 1998|MICHELLE MALTAIS | TIMES STAFF WRITER
For most of his life, wearing his yarmulke has not been an issue.
Every morning at 7, Baruch Cohen attends temple down the street from his home. Whenever he appears in court or meets with a client, a black yarmulke is atop his head.
For Cohen, wearing the Jewish skullcap is as natural as wearing a shirt. The yarmulke, he said, is a constant reminder that “there’s a God above.”
The 35-year-old Los Angeles bankruptcy lawyer said he is descended from 80 generations of rabbis and is fervent about his religious convictions. But as a student at Southwestern Law School, his resolve was challenged.
In his final year, he was granted a job interview that was “light-years ahead” of his class ranking, Cohen said. “Everyone said: ‘Don’t wear the yarmulke. It will ruin your chances.’ “
After much soul-searching, he consulted with his rabbi and received special dispensation to remove the skullcap.
At the interview, he was greeted by a lawyer with a black velvet yarmulke perched neatly on his head, traditional locks tucked out of sight, whose first question was, “Where is your yarmulke?” Cohen said. “I felt like a betrayer.”
Since then, he has refused to compromise in observing his Jewish traditions.
Snip
“Heterim shmeterim”
Pardon me for having a hard time taking that seriously from someone shmoozing on the net.
If someone DID get a heter, and this was not by twisting the rav’s arm but because of circumstances I can’t imagine, to be frank, how does someone lose out by listening to his rav?
Tzippi
One can get a Heter for almost anything, the question is when is it appropriate to ask for one. No offense to BPT but to buy a bottle of bourbon is a pathetic situation to go “Heter hunting” when there are other fine bottles he could have bought which he did at the end.
BP Totty
Yes well said. I think the way I would put it is, dont look for a Heter Lchatchila if you can go without the Heter. Heterim should be only after the fact when you either spent the money and cant return it or sell it without a big loss of money (especially on something expensive)…or if you did something and then found out it could be assur then you need a Heter. Looking for a Heter to do something which one can easily go without is Heter shopping and certainly not the proper way a Yorei Shomayim conducts himself.
BP Totty & WIY
??? ??? ???? ?? ???: ????? ??? ????, ??? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ???, ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ??, ?????; “??? ????? ?????????”, ?? ???? ?????????, ??? ??????????.
BP Zaideh
BPT and I never got to ????? ?????? and in fact I think never left the ?????? ?? ?? ?? stage, but thanks for the Gemara quote.
mandy, I agree with you.
WIY, Really? Said by a rav in a shiur? Were you there? So the unnamed rav heard a story which to a lawyer sounds bogus, but the rav didn’t question it and to you this is proof that it happened? Let’s not be ridiculous.
You also say, “This isn’t religious discrimination.” Remind me which state granted you your admission to practice law because you are completely WRONG on this.
I’m making the point strongly because frum people read this website, we can be subject to religious discrimination, and people should not follow legal advice from those who have no business giving it.
Next, “A law firm can say they won’t hire someone if they have reason to doubt their integrity.” Right, you know how to justify illegal discrimination. Tell it to the court.
Finally, “Besides the guy was frum I doubt he wanted to make a stink out of it and let everyone know what a ‘proud’ Jew he is.” Again, you have no idea about what you are talking. Within the past three years there was a major lawsuit in the federal court in Manhattan by a Jewish attorney against a law firm on the grounds they discriminated against him for being shomer Shabbos. The story was written up everywhere including, most importantly the Wall Street Journal.
Bezalel, that’s a very interesting story assuming the reporter got it right. We have no idea if this is the same story referred to by WIY. Both stories, however, beg a few questions:
How would the law firm lawyer in each story know that the job candidate normally wears a yarmulke? The whole point of the each story is that the candidate was alleged to lack integrity because he had removed his yarmulke. Two points: a) How did anyone know; and b) Why would anyone care?
Unless you know someone individually, how would you know if he ordinarily wears a yarmulke? The only way I can see is the possibility that the candidate is a chasid. I discount this because anyone who has a shaved head, payos and a beard would be crazy to take off his yarmulke because he would fool no one.
Second, many observant lawyers do not wear yarmulkes in business. Rarely does anyone think ill of them. Strangely, both stories would have you believe that the lawyer knew the candidate wore a yarmulke and took umbrage at him not wearing it.
I don’t know Mr. Cohen and I do not question his integrity but there are plenty of unanswered questions here.
does anyone have a link to that list we just heard about it a few weeks ago and we put our 1/2 finished bottle of 1792 on the side until we found out for sure, but it would be great if i could see a complete list please, thanks
http://www.crcweb.org/Whisky%20Alert%20_May%202010_%20Final%20Version.pdf
BTW if you read all the way through, you will see that it depends when you bought the 1792. If you bought before pesach 2009 (or if you bought it from a frum liquor store that bought it before 2009) then it is not a problem.
I heard the same story WIY related about the lawyer interview. I heard it a long time ago.
Bezalel cited an LA Times article. Homeowner, you dismiss things much too quickly. Unanswered questions floating in your head does not render a story fictitious.
Thank you Bezalel.
so right, we each bring to the table our own experiences and backgrounds. In my case it is that of a practicing attorney.
You may believe anything you choose. You have not, however, offered any possible answers to my questions.
By the way, it’s still two different stories. But then again, here is yet a third “job interview with a yarmulke at a law firm” story: http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48930972.html
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