Heter Mayah Rabbonim

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  • #1440602

    David111
    Participant

    How common is it that people go for the Heter Mayah Rabbonim option if a woman refuses a get?

    #1440684

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s uncommon for the reason that it is very uncommon for it to even be needed or desired. Despite media portrayals of bitter divorce battles where the spouses remain unwillingly married is a common occurrence, in reality it is very rare for cases to ever get to that point. When man bites dog it makes the news but it doesn’t make it common.

    #1440665

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    From what I know of, it is not common.

    #1440725

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its not so rare and the definatiin of Rav is also somewhat loose, They just make some sort of flyer and pass it in along in Israel and the US and get a few in Europe (Most of the signers are from the US or Israel)

    #1440728

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Its mostly common when it affects a rebbeshe or rosh yeshiva family.

    #1440757

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ” the definatiin of Rav is also somewhat loose, They just make some sort of flyer and pass it in along in Israel and the US and get a few in Europe (Most of the signers are from the US or Israel)”

    I don’t think it’s so simple – I know someone who was once asked asked to be the 100th Rav (or maybe it was the 99th). He was asked to be the 100th (as opposed to 1-99) because he is not a Gadol, but at the same time, he is a Talmid Chacham and Posek, and he was specifically chosen because of that – it wasn’t just passed around.

    #1440758

    David111
    Participant

    Takes2-2tango. Why is that? Most difficult people?

    #1440765

    Joseph
    Participant

    There’s no specific halachic requirements regarding who can sign. Technically any 100 men with smicha can be the signatories.

    #1440770

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    If there are no specific halachic requirements, why would they have to have Semicha? (especially since contemporary semicha has no halachic significance, and is not necessarily an accurate reflection of how learned the person is.)

    #1440776

    Joseph
    Participant

    Right. The Chofetz Chaim got smicha when he was an old man. If he had signed a HMR before he got smicha it would have been valid.

    #1440772

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Takes2-2tango. Why is that?”

    I would guess that it’s easier for them to find 100 Rabbis (who know enough about the situation and are willing to sign.)

    #1440780

    The little I know
    Participant

    It is quite possible that the heter meah rabbonim occurs far more often, but it tends to get very little publicity. It is a process that involves a sense of victory and shame at the same time. On one hand, the divorcing husband manages to win the get war, and slips out of the bond that stopped him from remarrying. But it is also a nuclear option, and makes the husband appear to be a mean, narcissistic person.

    I have actually see a few of these. I would NEVER allow my child to consider marrying someone who received his heter to marry by the heter meah. Firstly, (I am not a posek and am not qualified to establish halacha) I frown on the way the signatures are obtained, with very few of the signatories knowing anything at all about the case. In cases I observed, the document was carried into a kollel, and made its rounds collecting signatures of yungerleit who were uninformed about any of the facts of the case. I would not consider my signature cheap, and struggle when someone else does. Secondly, there are opposite extremes of situations that result in seeking heter meah. One extreme is a wife that refuses to accept a get out of stubbornness, such as impossible demands. The opposite end is the husband who refuses to give the wife anything, and since the affairs cannot be settled, she will not accept the get. This husband then turns around and seeks the heter meah rabbonim. These situations are extremes, and their are always unique variables to a specific case. But all too often, the situation of heter meah stinks.

    It may be more common than we think. Just lots of cases stay below the radar.

    For the most part, heter meah rabbonim is used as a threat to leverage some power to the husband.

    #1440781

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’ve seen a Heter Mean Rabbonim signed by Reb Moshe Feinstein zt’l.

    #1440788

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    So why did you write “100 men with Semicha”?

    Were you not being literal, and just trying to say “100 men who have the knowledge that would be needed to get semicha”?

    #1440790

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I’m not an expert on the exact nature of the process, but the point I was trying to get across was that it’s not a simple process, and it’s not like any time that a man wants a divorce and his wife doesn’t – boom! no problem – we’ll just find 100 men to sign a piece of paper.

    There are cases in which a man wants a divorce and his wife doesn’t, and he is simply not able to get divorced. However, in SOME cases, he is able to get a heter meah Rabbanim.

    #1440791

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “Its mostly common when it affects a rebbeshe or rosh yeshiva family…”
    And the reason for this is….???? Are wives in “rebbeshe” families more reluctant to “refuse a get”?? Is a Rosh Yeshiva more likely to want to impose a get on his wife than a poihsete yid??

    #1440814

    TRUEBT
    Participant

    HMR does not end the marriage or “impose a get” as you put it. It permits the man to take a second wife. I would guess that a Rosh Yeshiva would have an easier time convincing a Beis Din to give that type of heter just because he is more familiar with the Halacha.
    From Wikipedia: “Heter meah rabbanim (Hebrew: היתר מאה רבנים‬ “permission by one hundred rabbis”) is a term in Jewish law which means that one hundred Rabbis agree with a Beth din (rabbinical court) that a particular situation warrants an exemption to permit a man to remarry even though his wife refuses or is unable to accept a get (a legal divorce according to Jewish law).
    In about 1000 CE the Ashkenazic halachic authority Rabbeinu Gershom of Mainz issued a decree called “Cherem de’Rabbeinu Gershom” banning polygamy. To prevent this decree from causing flippant divorces previously unnecessary, he also decreed that “a woman may not be divorced against her will”.
    In certain extreme cases, however, such as the case of a man whose wife is missing, or refuses to accept a get for an extended period, Beth din will only permit him to remarry after one hundred rabbis agree with them to issue an exemption.
    After receiving a heter meah rabbanim, Beth din will require the husband to write a get for his wife and deposit it with them. His wife will remain married until she receives the get in her possession.
    To ensure that a particular situation indeed justifies an exemption, the rabbis instituted a requirement, that at least one hundred Torah scholars domiciled in at least three different countries or, according to some authorities, it is enough three different jurisdictions, certify that dispensation for a second marriage is factually justified.
    In order to get a heter meah rabbonim, it used to be that a man who got the go ahead from a Rabbinic court wandered from town to town and from one country to another with a letter from Beth din and had to plead his case with every town Rabbi to get his approval. Later on, written permission by mail was accepted and sometimes an intermediary was used to plead his case. In the last century with the ease of communication, it has become a more formal process in which Beth din takes the lead and secures the one hundred signatures required.
    Situations where Beth din might see a justification which warrants this process includes:
    Where the Halacha requires a man to divorce his wife and she refuses to accept it (e.g. some situations of adultery).
    Where the wife has abandoned her husband and steadfastly refuses to accept a get.
    Where the wife disappeared and her whereabouts are unknown.
    Where the wife is mentally unable to give consent to receiving a get.
    Where the wife has fallen into an irreversible coma due to illness or injury.
    In the last two of these cases, the Beth din will, as a condition of the heter, demand a binding undertaking from the husband that he will continue to provide for his wife’s care.”

    #1440818

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    So the obvious question is why Rav Gershon or some other gadol over the centuries did not provide some equivalent (aka heter shava maohs rabonim) alternative for extreme cases where the husband refuses to provide a get to his wife?? And the obvious answer is…??

    #1440835

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    The oilam jokes; it used to be that people looked for 100 talmidei chachamim, (as per the Rema, who says that would be an option) but today people make do with 100 rabbanim…

    #1440843

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So the obvious question is why Rav Gershon or some other gadol over the centuries did not provide some equivalent (aka heter shava maohs rabonim) alternative for extreme cases where the husband refuses to provide a get to his wife?? And the obvious answer is…??

    The obvious answer is that she is an eishes ish, and 7 million rabbonim can’t change that.

    #1440846

    hml
    Participant

    HMR is a terrible thing for the children of the halachic “first” marriage. I had a student whose father refused to give his wife a Get but got 100 naive and well meaning Rabbis to sign a petach and he remarried. The child, and the siblings, were humiliated & devastated. It was bad enough their parents split, but this??? Mom came into school crying, begging us not to let her ex in. We agreed, because she had legal custody, but I suspect the Hanhala would have agreed anyway. My student went from being outgoing and generally secure and happy to a shell. She just shriveled like an old etrog. Things didn’t go so well for her after she left my class.

    It didn’t matter the entire community, including the influential Rabbonim, were horrified and on the side of the mother. I don’t know what the eventual outcome was, whether he ever gave her the Get, but I can never forget that sweet little girl and the pain she endured. Think before you sign such a paper… get every scrap of information before you do.

    #1440870

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I had a student whose father refused to give his wife a Get but got 100 naive and well meaning Rabbis to sign a petach and he remarried.

    He’s supposed to deposit a get with the issuing beis din which she can accept when she wants.

    #1440850

    David111
    Participant

    I’m in a situation where my wife is refusing to take a get. She suffers from extreme mental illness and has nothing to loose by not taking a get. I have offered extremely generous amounts of money but this got me nowhere (im want surprised as money isn’t the issue here..) She has advised Beis Din that that she won’t discuss a get at all.
    Beis Din has mentioned to me the HMR option and that it may need to being used. However it seems that it’s something that they’ll do after a total of approx 2 – 3 years of waiting..
    I’ve been told that some Beth Dins in Israel do it in a quicker time frame.
    Is this something worth looking at?

    #1440861

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Part of the problem with the Hetar Meah Rabbanim was in the time of Rabbenu Gershom it was quite difficult to to and I belive there is also the requirement of the 100 Rabbanim being from 3 different continents, so in his day it really was a last option

    Unfortunatly today because of the smaller world we live in one can easily abuse this, You can get 50 Kollel guys to sign in Brookkyn or Lakewood, fed ex the document to England and get a few to sign there and fed ex the document to Israel and get the rest there. it can be done in less than a week. In Rabbenu Gershon’s time it tooks months or years to do

    #1440894

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rabbeinu Gershom set his Cherem to expire; that expiration date has long since passed. The rabbonim at the time of the expiration extended it. But just like they extended the Cherem the rabbonim could choose now to end the Cherem. If the Cherem ended both the Heter Meah Rabbonim and the ban on multiple marriages would end.

    #1440922

    Rogotchover
    Participant

    It is extremely difficult to get a Heter in Israel – and if you and your wife are not citizens/ residents, it is legally impossible.

    The Bet Din of America will only give a Heter if the wife is incapacitated – and even then it is hard to get.

    Your best bet is to contact a reputable Dayan who does these things. Rav Landesman of “Kollel Harabanim” in Monsey is one example. And no, you should not have to wait 3 years.

    #1440996

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “Rabbeinu Gershom set his Cherem to expire”
    Not everyone agrees on that aspect (i.e. the auto 1000 yr ban).

    Also, a HMR can ONLY be utilized in specific situations and is invalid (according to many) if used just because one decided he wants to divorce his wife and she refuses.
    Rabanim signing in itself does not negate a heter – it needs to be based on a valid reason mentioned in the poskim. As far as I have seen, true Gadolie Haposkim (like Rav Shlomo Kluger ZTL etc) rarely gave a Heter and in many cases nullified any heter.

    If you make the Heter availble for every case and simple to obtain the entire Cheren will have no effect.

    #1440995

    gavriel613
    Participant

    your Rov will be a better source of info than YWN forums

    #1441021

    GAON
    Participant

    According to the Noda beYahuda, the 100 “rabbanim” need to be Lomdim Miflagim and at least be able to Pasken” – and know the Halachas relevant to what they are co-signing- not just any guy from Kolel. Also, the original three initiating the Heter need to be Rabanim and Poskim Muvhakim that know the ins and outs of the situation. They need to acknowledge that the Heter is legit.
    See below link for more:
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14661&st=&pgnum=160

    #1440961

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rog: Those are small issues. If the Israeli government rabbanut won’t recognize it, one could get it from (and get remarried with) a Chareidi Rov such as from the Eidah HaChareidus and others or simply remarry with a Rov outside Israel. Same with the BDA. They are only MO anyways and in general don’t comport with normative Halacha. One can (and should) use another Beis Din.

    #1441031

    GAON
    Participant

    ZD,
    ” I belive there is also the requirement of the 100 Rabbanim being from 3 different continents”
    It is three diff ‘countries’ not continents.

    See below link Responsum Chasam Sofer how to define three “Arotzos”:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=793&st=&pgnum=6

    #1441056

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon: “According to the Noda beYahuda, the 100 “rabbanim” need to be Lomdim Miflagim and at least be able to Pasken” – and know the Halachas relevant to what they are co-signing- not just any guy from Kolel.”

    Nu, ידין ידין.

    “Also, a HMR can ONLY be utilized in specific situations and is invalid (according to many) if used just because one decided he wants to divorce his wife and she refuses.”

    Agreed, of course. If he wants to divorce his wife since he found a prettier girl and she refuses his divorce, the rabbonim will rightfully shoot him down and tell him to stay with his wife. He needs a halachicly valid cause to divorce. If she then refuses he’s entitled to a HMR.

    #1441078

    GAON
    Participant

    Daas,
    “He’s supposed to deposit a get with the issuing beis din which she can accept when she wants.”

    Agreed- something definitely does not make any sense, on other hand, who knows with some Rabanim…

    I have been approached more than once to sign on a Heter (initiated by some Beth Din of who knows who__ ) , and I refused, based on Rav Shlomo Kluger’s psak in Sefer Alef L’Cha Shlomo (E”H:7) – see link below . I was just baffled how this process works. It is an entire joke. I wouldn’t suggest marrying anyone who has utilized the Heter before you do proper research that it was done adequately and based on legit reasons (or at least a true Posek Gadol) , for that person may still be transgressing a Cherim despite all signees.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1354&st=&pgnum=264

    David –

    “She suffers from extreme mental illness ‘”

    If she is really suffering from an extreme mental illness then she might be in a position that she can not except a Get. i.e. a Shotah” and hence a Heter is 100% legit.

    However,based on your comment this is not exactly the case. On the other hand, she might be qualified as one, and you should discuss it with a posek.

    #1441083

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think countries today means continents meaning the US and Canada count as 1 . Today they are using the US/ Europe and israel (Maybe South America or Australia, but Ive mostly heard Europe)

    #1441090

    GAON
    Participant

    “He needs a halachicly valid cause to divorce”
    Joseph,

    Read my post regarding RSK. The “halachicly valid cause” nowadays has been stretched way beyond the realm of Halacha…

    “Nu, ידין ידין”
    Hmm am not sure the ידין ידין indicates anything regarding knowing a bit Even Ha’ezer…

    #1441101

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Not everyone agrees on that aspect (i.e. the auto 1000 yr ban).”

    The Shulchan Aruch says Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom was set to expire on Year 5000. (Not 1000 years since it was issued.)

    “I have been approached more than once to sign on a Heter”

    You’re a lomdim miflagim and are able to Pasken?

    “The “halachicly valid cause” nowadays has been stretched way beyond the realm of Halacha…”

    You make it sound like HMRs are very common these days and many of them have been issued on a stretch of legitimacy. How would you know this?

    “Hmm am not sure the ידין ידין indicates anything regarding knowing a bit Even Ha’ezer…”

    However the signatories know Even Ha’ezer… with or without smicha.

    #1441120

    GAON
    Participant

    ““I have been approached more than once to sign on a Heter”

    You’re a lomdim miflagim and are able to Pasken?”

    That is precisely my point….

    #1441142

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    According to the REMAH – the ban has no expiration date, see Pischei Tshuvah (link below) that many Rishonim that lived after 5000 quote and support the ban (like the RAN, Mahram M’Rotenberg, Ravyah, etc hence they all agreed thar it has no expiration date)

    “http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14398&st=&pgnum=12

    #1441119

    GAON
    Participant

    “countries today means continents”

    The Halacha should still be the same, as the Ch”S allows even countries that are under one Malchus,/Empire e.g. Galicia part of Poland, Hungary and Austria were all under the Austrian empire, (even next to each other) as long as it is considered a separate State AND Community is fine.

    Canada perhaps might be an issue in some cases as being one community/Kehila ? I am not sure, but technically, CA should be considered as another country, I don’t see why not.

    #1441160

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, offhand I seem to recall the Rema says that it was extended after it expired. But it had an original expiration date. The Mechaber certainly says R”G gave it an expiration date.

    #1441165

    GAON
    Participant

    “However the signatories know Even Ha’ezer… with or without smicha.”

    In my case, I asked the one that had signed and approached me (who I know and he has ידין ידין and is a T”CH in Y”D and OC, but knows little A”H and b’Tiv Gittin etc) – if he knows the basis of when we permit Meah Rabanim – he replied something to the effect why – “when she refuses to take a Get after a while”.

    I told him based on your answer – you, and I bet you many others should take themselves off the list…

    #1441172

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lchoira according to that explanation, if the HMR read signed by three different communities all in Brooklyn, i.e. Satmar, SY Sefardic and Chofetz Chaim, it would satisfy the three different kehilos rule.

    #1441177

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Even if the 1000 years shelf life of cherem R’G were up in 5778, does anyone really believe Yidden living in North America, or EY would start taking multiple wives, unless, of course, if we had a kol koreh from all the leading Gadolim authorizing polygamy as a means of addressing the shiduch crisis.

    #1441224

    GAON
    Participant

    ” if the HMR read signed by three different communities all in Brooklyn”

    It needs BOTH i.e. Kehilos and States, lets say Satmar in CA and NY sign it will not render as two.

    Given the reason we need sep states is for the fear of one influential manipulating his communities Rav/Bet Din into one heter, (Note there is a machlokes regarding the very reason, see Meshav Davar of Netziv) the same applies to the Kehilos..

    #1441241

    hml
    Participant

    David, I am very sorry for your situation – it must be a living nightmare. Do you have children? Do you have custody? It seems that the vindictiveness is on your wife’s side (purely based on what you have said.) but please consider what is best for your children. I’m sure you are listening to your Rav…does he say go for HMR? If so, what happens then?

    You seem to be an Agun, but you may have a way out. I hope she will wake up one day very soon & realize it’s in her best interests to accept the Get. Good luck.

    #1441259

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon: “Even if the 1000 years shelf life of cherem R’G were up in 5778, does anyone really believe Yidden living in North America, or EY would start taking multiple wives, unless, of course, if we had a kol koreh from all the leading Gadolim authorizing polygamy as a means of addressing the shiduch crisis.”

    That’s exactly what I said: 1) The gedolei rabbonim would need to reauthorize the practice of polygamy and 2) The gedolei rabbonim today have this right.

    The mere concept of Yidden having multiple wives isn’t far fetched as even today there are living frum Yidden, (Sephardim, Teimanim, etc.), that have several wives they married in Morocco, Yemen or elsewhere in recent times. It has only been Ashkenazim who made a gezeira against it (the reason for which is disputed among the Seforim HaKedoshim), and the gezeira itself even for Ashkenazim had a preset expiration date.

    #1441287

    benignuman
    Participant

    Polygamy is illegal in all 50 states. So even if the modern day Rabbonim would revoke the cherem, it would still be forbidden because of dina d’malchusa.

    #1441314

    The little I know
    Participant

    With an eye on the current divorce rate, it seems that there are many marriages that cannot succeed, with a man being unable to manage with one woman. How on G-d’s earth does anyone expect hmi to manage with two?

    One downside of polygamy is that a man can end up with two mothers-in-law. Imagine! Two shviggers! That is a nightmare!

    On the serious side, there is a relatively unknown (it should stay that way) movement to reinstitute the subject of Pilegesh. The advocates for this base their position on a tshuvah from Rav Yaakov Emdin where he discusses the subject. I do not recall his precise language, but it boils down to הלכה ואין מורין מכן, that the halacha is that this is permitted, but one cannot implement this halacha. Pilegesh would not be a technical violation of the Cherem D’Rabbenu Gershom. But it would be highly problematic for a wide variety of reasons.

    #1441326

    Joseph
    Participant

    Benignuman, Federal courts have rendered the bans on polygamy unenforceable from the viewpoint of preventing multiple religious marriages. Many fundamentalist Mormons have and are openly practicing it, and have been for well over a century. Several attempts at stopping them by the authorities, absent any other illegal activities, have been shot down by the Federal courts on the basis of freedom of religion (since they are religious only marriages.) More recently they have actually promoted their polygamy on TV shows, and despite one attempt of a State AG at charging them, the AG’s case was dismissed by the court. More recently many African Muslim immigrants to the US are also openly practicing polygamy in the US, without hindrance, including in NYC. More recently Federal courts, in addition to the aforementioned freedom of religion basis to allow religious multiple marriages, have also ruled even against Utah’s nominal statue in its books against polygamy. About a year ago the appeals court mooted the case on the basis that the AG said the State no longer enforces it anyways.

    #1441490

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,
    Regarding the expiration of the Cherem, see the below link, the pishchei Tshuva quotes many rishonim and poskim that do not even mention anything about having a expiration date. Basically, it’s a machlokes and we go according to the other shitah.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14398&st=&pgnum=12

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