Heter Mayah Rabbonim

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  • #1441491

    benignuman
    Participant

    Joseph,
    I don’t know if you are correct or not. I have never done a survey to see the state of the law in each state. Can you give me a citation to a federal or state case striking down a polygamy law?

    #1441506

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    Can anyone reference me a shiur about the rules of Dina dmalchusa dina? Because something tells me that that people quote this Halacha to an extreme. It’s become almost like the Joker card. Permitted according to Torah? That’s irrelevant, because dina dmalchusa dina.

    #1441508

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Serious question: If a Sphard found himself in this situation, would he not need the heter meah? Could he just get a heter from 1 Rabbi?

    #1441546

    Joseph
    Participant

    Benignuman: KODY BROWN, MERI BROWN,JANELLE BROWN, CHRISTINE BROWN,ROBYN SULLIVAN v. JEFFREY R. BUHMAN. Case: 2:11CV00652. It overturned Utah’s statue. Eventually the case was mooted since Utah’s AG promised the Federal court that Utah doesn’t enforce the law anyways. See also the additional points I made in my last comment.

    Gaon: We go according to the shitta, as stated in S”A, that R”G set an expiration date. But later the rabbonim extended it. Therefore everyone agrees it continued after expiration, even the shittas that tell us there was an expiration date. But in any event this point is mostly academic. It doesn’t change the other points made.

    #1441639

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I don’t see why state law comes into this. There’s nothing stopping them from getting a legal divorce, right?

    #1441624

    GAON
    Participant

    “But in any event this point is mostly academic. It doesn’t change the other points made.”

    It happens to be it does – the diff will be if it can be applied to any sort of Safek. If its a Cherim it is an issue. If its a mere “minhag” than its a diff story. (I recall many poskim discussing it, in regards to after the holocaust etc.)

    #1441609

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville, Sephardim have no need for, or even a concept of, Heter Meah Rabbonim. Since they have no prohibition against polygamy in the first place. As mentioned, Sephardim and Teimanim alive today have more than one wife they married in Morocco, Yemen and elsewhere. So they could marry again regardless. The whole HMR is an Ashkenazic construct.

    Pdtg, as I extensively explained in my last several comments, it isn’t a violation of Dina D’Malchusa in the United States since having multiple religious marriages is entirely legal in all States (as the courts ruled it a violation of constitutional rights for a state to regulate or preclude religious marriage ceremonies.) Furthermore, many countries — including South Africa (where their President has four wives) and other countries in Africa and Asia — officially allow polygamy. And anyone marrying in those countries will have their marriage (even if married as a tourist to those countries) recognized by virtually all other countries, including the US and Europe. Additionally, Yidden conduct marriages exclusively in accordance with our own dinim and takonos; we don’t need to use the goyishe laws and rules for them. In fact, the Halacha of Dina D’Malchusa doesn’t include us having to comply with local goyishe marriage laws. Dina D’Malchusa is primarily concerned with taxation and government monetary laws between the people and the state.

    Benignuman, a further point is that it is certainly legal under any view of the law for a male to live in the same household with multiple non-blood related females and, as far as the state and government is concerned to not represent himself as being married to more than one of them. As far as conducting kiddushin with any multiple number of them, the Constitution precludes the State from regulating or precluding anyone from conducting any number of religious kiddushin ceremonies.

    #1441592

    benignuman
    Participant

    Put down,
    I have heard shiurim on the subject but they are not readily available online. I am sure that if you go to YU Torah and search “dina d’malchusa” (or malchuta) you will find plenty. I learned the sugya to a degree (and even once gave a shiur on the topic. The extent of its applicability is a machlokes Rishonim. But, if I remember correctly, the Rama paskens that it applies to general laws as well (i.e. not just taxes or monetary laws).

    #1441688

    benignuman
    Participant

    Here is the Ramah (Choshen Mishpat 369:8):
    י”א דלא אמרינן דינא דמלכותא דינא אלא במסים ומכסים התלוים בקרקע כי המלך גוזר שלא ידורו בארצו כי אם בדרך זה אבל בשאר דברים לא (הרא”ש פ”ד דנדרים בשם הר”מ ומרדכי פ’ הגוזל בתרא) וי”ח וסבירא להו דאמרי’ בכל דבר דינא דמלכותא דינא (מרדכי שם בשם התוס’ ות”ה סי’ ש”ט) ולכן המלוה על המשכון יכול למכרו אחר שנה הואיל וכן דינא דמלכותא (שם בשם ר”י בר פרץ) וכן הוא עיקר

    #1441685

    benignuman
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I will look at the case that you cited. However, I am pretty sure that no court has held that anti-polygamy laws are unconstitutional. Many years ago, the Supreme Court held that they were Constitutional. And although that holding is shaky in light of recent Supreme Court rulings, it has not yet been overruled and therefore remains the law of the land.

    As I stated above, I believe we pasken (I will track down the Rama) that dina d’malchusa applies to all laws of the land (so long as they do not require violations of halacha).

    You are right that if you simply live with them all halachically but only claim, legally, to be married to one of them, it would be permitted in many states (not sure about New York).

    #1441803

    GAON
    Participant

    ” Sephardim have no need for, or even a concept of, Heter Meah Rabbonim. Since they have no prohibition against polygamy in the first place. ”

    While it holds true for Yemenite’s and even Sephardim, however the minhag of Sephardim is not to, as per haRav Ovadia Yosef the נוסח הכתובה of Sefardim is as follows:

    “ולא ישא ולא ישדך ולא יקדש שום אשה אחרת עליה כי אם ברשות בית דין הצדק”
    See יביע אומר ח’ אה”ע ב’.
    However, in some cases permission of a Bet din will allow someone to marry another woman.

    #1441712

    Joseph
    Participant

    Many years ago the Supreme Court held that marriage only between men and women was legal and that sodomy was illegal. Yet courts later changed. And the court has ruled as I said above; anti-polygamy laws are constitutionally unenforceable for any purpose more than to allow the State to refuse to issue secular marriage licenses to someone already married.

    In any event your acknowledgment of the point in your last paragraph makes the point moot since one can simply refrain from obtaining multiple state marriage licenses or otherwise representing himself to the government of being married more than once. He can simply stick to kiddushin.

    #1442823

    GAON
    Participant

    Nev,

    “Serious question: If a Sphard found himself in this situation, would he not need the heter meah? Could he just get a heter from 1 Rabbi?”

    As per harav Ovadia (posted earlier) – a heter from a BD will suffice…

    #1442854

    Joseph
    Participant

    About nine or so years ago Rav Ovadia Yosef said he feels it is wrong that many Sephardim have accepted what was an Ashkenazic-only takana against having a second wife, and said Sephardim shouldn’t abide by such an across-the-board rule.

    Gaon, what you’re quoting is part of the kesuba of many Sephardim. That has been done for many years by many Sephardim but it has never been an across-the-board provision accepted by all Sephardim. The Sephardim customize their kesubas and some take certain conditions, as agreed upon between chosson and kallah prior to marriage, while other Sephardim don’t implement those provisions in their kesuba (in which case he could take additional wives without anyone else’s reshus.) But even the kesuba provision you quoted, for those Sephardim that use that provision, (as you said) even they can take a second (or third) wife with the reshus of beis din, which the provision expressly allows for.

    Neville’s question was about a situation where a Sephardi was in a marriage where the wife ran away without accepting a Get or something. In such a case it would be very easy for a Sephardic Beis Din to allow him to take a second wife, due to such a circumstances. Because the provision even allows Beis Din to allow additional wives when he’s still happily living with his first wife.

    An interesting point regarding Neville’s question, whereas Ashkenazim are prohibited from forcibly divorcing a wife against her will based on Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom, Sephardim have no such preclusion and could simply divorce her against her will if she took off and didn’t want to accept a divorce.

    #1464066

    David111
    Participant

    Just a follow up question on this topic:

    It seem that I’ll need to go for the Heter Mayah Rabbonim option as my (future) ex will not take a get. I have offered generous amounts of monies for kids. I have tried all forms of negotiations. Nothing worked. She has refused to come to Beis Din even after a few Hazmonus.

    I suffered a very lot in this marriage. And don’t want to wait around a few years with the hope that she might agree some day to take a get.

    My question is, will this have an impact on my future Shidduchim? If yes. How much?

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