How come all frum Jews today aren’t Chassidic?

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  • #1290900
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    So I grew up going to Chabad, and really connect to Chassidic teachings. Leaning that Hashem needs us to serve Him with joy makes Judaism and Torah not only more meaningful, but more positive for me, and thus more practical.

    I know that Chassidus, as far as I know and what do I know?, began with the Baal Shem Tov. Seeing that this was relatively recently in Jewish history, I understand why the world’s Jewry wasn’t “Chassidic” before, but why not after?

    I thought maybe it’s because maybe some Jews do not follow a Rebbe, but not all Rebbes are Chassidic too.

    I guess what I’m wondering is, in summary, how do frum Jews grow up loving and enjoying Torah without Chassidus? Or it is obviously not all cut and dry, and Chassidus is really bringing out Torah teachings that non-Chassidic Jews learn and know already?

    Thank you

    #1290920
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Chassidim are mostly extinct by now.

    #1290938
    Joseph
    Participant

    Chabad Lubavitch is one Chasidus out of many. Satmar alone has over 200,000 Chasidim in North America, Europe and Eretz Yisroel.

    #1290927
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    RebYidd23,

    A) What do you mean?
    B) Why would you say this?
    C) How is this so?
    D) How can one say this? Hashem can make Chassidim the norm tomorrow.
    E) What about all the BTs who are Chassidic? And the already Chassidic Jews? Are there not many and growing?

    Thanks, and still wondering, where do non-Chassidim draw their Ahavas Torah and ahava for Avodas Hashem?

    #1290932
    kj chusid
    Participant

    Sorry to break it to you, but Chabad of today has A. Nothing to do with any chassidus and B. Nothing to do with the original Chabad

    #1290954
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Yay! Chassidim are still going strong B”H 👍💙💖💚💛

    Btw, Satmar is Chassidic? I thought they were Haredi.

    #1290955
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Like non-Chassidic Haredi

    #1290986
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    How can one say this? Hashem can make Chassidim the norm tomorrow.

    No, He cannot. If He did so, it would defeat the entire purpose of bechira. (Or, to put it more finely, He can, but He won’t).

    In any event, I don’t understand why you think chassidus should be the default among frum Jews. Shivim Panim LaTorah and all that — and non-Chassidus is just as legitimate* as non-Chassidus.

    The Wolf

    (* You might even make the case that it’s more legitimate in that Chassidus is a relatively new phenomenon, but I’m not going to make that argument.)

    The Wolf

    #1290988
    GAON
    Participant

    Light – for starters please define Chasiddus”. Did for example the Mahral or the GR”A of Vilna need “Chasiddus”?

    #1290993
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Only 1 out of every twenty Chassidim is a Chassid.

    #1290990
    GAON
    Participant

    Kj – Chabad is no different than most other so-called Chasidim iin regards to that aspect. In fact, in a way they are relatively closer to the original than others, for at least some are into the limud haChasidus.

    #1291016
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    GAON, thanks for asking me to clarify.

    Basically to me, Chassidism is about bringing joy into serving Hashem and everything we do. Torah strengthens our relationship with Hashem and we must unite our hearts minds and actions with the proper joyful kavana when we perform mitzvot.

    Background: Recently I talked to my Rebbetzin about how sometimes when I listen to shiurim, I feel terribly guilty afterward. Even if I do more mitzvot after, I still feel horrible and like I don’t do enough or learn enough and am not enough.

    My rebbetzin said that I need to listen to more Chassidish shiurim, because Torah brings joy and light. It is not healthy if learning is making me distressed. Then it dawned on me, what shiurim am I listening to? When I listen to shiurim on Chassidut, I generally feel more inspired and positive afterward.

    Thus, I wanted to know how it is possible to be a non-Chassidic Jew – according to my perception/definition – and see Torah observance with love and positivity.

    Thank you

    #1291010
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Wolf, wondering how non-Chassidic frum Jews are all happy and loving Torah and mitzvot without Chassidic teachings the outlook.

    This has nothing to do with legitimacy! No judgment here! Or comparison!

    I want to understand how Ahavas Torah and Avodas Hashem is taught to frum Jews in a way that is not “our job is to be happy and serve Hashem with joy…”

    Thanks!

    #1291027
    Joseph
    Participant

    LB: Satmar, Ger, Bobov, Vizhnitz, Stolin, Tosh, Klausenberg, Skvere, etc. are all very much Chasidic.

    #1291021
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Ahem… yeladim, so please remember this is a lashon hara free zone.

    Ooops!
    If you accidentally brought your lashon hara with you, one of our flight attendants will step in shortly to remove your baggage, for we cannot continue to go with such language.

    If you don’t know who you are, you probably still do, and if not, please reread your posts aloud as if you were speaking to your local Chassidic Rav.

    Thanks for choosing this thread! Enjoy your visit ✈

    #1291052
    Avi K
    Participant

    LB, joy has nothing to do with jumping around and singing “Mitzva gedola liyot b’simcha” (which is not true – sometimes there is a mitzva to be in avelut and really we should be all year round because the Bet HaMikdash still has not been built). Joy is the inner satisfaction one receives from doing a mitzva. One can attain this when learning Gemara and Halacha. In fact, intellectual joy is on a higher level than emotional joy. as the intellect is what separates us from the animals (just look at the eyes of a dog when it see its master and you will know that they feel emotional joy).

    #1291059
    assurnet
    Participant

    Avi K, the way you’re speaking about chassidus I don’t think you’ve had a real taste of it. The line you’re quoting is from Lekutei Moharan, and it’s one of only 3 mitzvot that the Rebbe described as a “mitzvah gedola” so it’s not just something stam, there’s something very deep behind it.

    Besides? What’s the problem with singing and dancing? Tehillim says “ivdu et Hashem b’simcha, bo lefanav birnana” Do you know better than David HaMelech? I know somebody who thought they did – his wife Michal. She criticized him for singing and dancing to serve Hashem and the pasukim tell us she never had another child (though I believe some hold she had one more child which she died in birth).

    It’s funny you compare emotional joy to a dog. It also says in tehillim 73 וַאֲנִי בַעַר וְלֹא אֵדָע בְּהֵמוֹת הָיִיתִי עִמָּךְ
    David HaMelech compares his service and level to a beast. Rashi says that even so he still he didn’t budge from Yirat Shemayim.

    It’s fine if you don’t feel connected to chassidus – but it’s really sad that whatever aspect of Torah you do feel connected to is so weak that you feel ok denigrating those who do.

    #1291067
    assurnet
    Participant

    LB – I think what RebYidd23 may be referring to, though I could be wrong, is that much of chassidim and chassidus today has differed from the movement the Baal Shem Tov originally started. The Besh”t had an intense focus on the everyday common person and the greatness of their simple emunah and seemingly insignificant devotions, showing how in truth they were quite beloved in heaven. Whereas today chassidus can often be somewhat elitist and insular (not all the time but definitely not rare).

    I have an english biography on Reb Yoilish, and it quotes him as saying that the light of the Baal Shem Tov was only meant to last for like 200 years or something like that, implying that chassidus today is just a shell of what it used to be but no longer has the inner light it did at the beginning. I’ve also heard that he supposedly said none of the chassidus’s around today still have the essence of the Baal Shem Tov except for Chabad and Breslov (little known fact, he actually helped fund one of if not the very first printing of tikkun haklali in America, but told them not to publicize it so that people wouldn’t assume the tikkun haklali was just a Satmar thing and not read it).

    #1291072
    Chaver
    Participant

    Joseph where do you get such stats? 200,000 Satmar Chassidim!? if so Kein Yirbu but I think that your numbers are way off

    #1291096
    Joseph
    Participant

    Chaver, by the early ’80s Satmar had over 100,000 across the US, Canada, Europe and Eretz Yisroel. Today they have over three times as many yeshiva bochorim than 30 years ago.

    #1291109
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Rav Yeshuad Hachasid and the chasidei ashkenaz were followers of which chassidic group?
    What about “hahu chasid” the gemara sometimes refers to, which chasidus did he belong to?
    What about the bird mentioned in the torah, “chasidah”.

    #1291111
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Is life about feelings?
    I have had plenty of people tell me they feel alive and have had “religious” experiences at non -jewish concerts
    I’m not connecting chassidus with goyish music
    I’m questioning the premise of the question

    #1291348
    Avi K
    Participant

    Assurnet, there is nothing wrong with dancing – at the proper time (and not in the middle of the street while the loudspeakers on the van are blaring at millions of decibels). However, that is not the main part of Judaism. There is a joke that Hashem called Matan Torah for 8 AM. The Mitnaggdim came at 8, received the Torah, learned a seder and then danced. The Chassidim then arrived and thought that that is the Torah (BTW, several times I went to a certain shtieblach to daven Mincha Gedola at the earliest time and found a mninyan davening Shacharit). In fact, the Baal HaTanya saved Chassidut when he stopped the populism and told people to buckle down and learn.

    Apushatayid, learn Messilat Yesharim. A chassid goes way above and beyond – after first achieving zehirut (intellectual examination) zerizut (doing positive mitzvot) and nekiut (not being over on lavim) and perishut (going somewhat above and beyond). However, one must learn at a high intelelectual level to even think about this. I heard that
    אין עם הארץ חסיד means that he is not allowed to be a chassid as he will be a chassid shoteh.

    #1291439
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, Wikipedia puts the Satmar population as of 2015 as being between 50,000 and 120,000. What are your sources.?

    #1291443
    Joseph
    Participant

    lesschumras: I’ll fix Wikipedia to the above current info. Give me a few minutes.

    #1291444
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The easiest way to get a real good idea of Satmar Popular is to take the Cenus Population of Kiryat Joel which is estiamted to be 22,000 and Williamsburg Brooklyn

    Williamsburg has a Population of 120,000 and 50% of them are White. if we count all of them as Satmar (Which of course they are not), we get another 60,000 people for a total of 82,000

    There are scattering Satmar communities in Borough park and elsewhere and some in Israel.. But they do not equal the 82,000 in Williamsburg and Kiryat Joel

    #1291445
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I put the Satmar population as of 2017 somewhere between 1 and 7.5 billion.

    #1291462
    mw13
    Participant

    LB:
    Just to clarify, Chassidim did not invent the concept of serving Hashem with simcha. David HaMelech writes in Tehilim: Ivdu es Hashem bi’simcha. But he also writes Ivdu es Hashem bi’yirah. As with everything else in life, we must maintain the proper balance of simcha and yira in our avodas Hashem. Even a hard-core litvak will tell you that.

    (Btw, both Chabad and Satmar are normally referred to as being Chassidism, even if they have very different outlooks on the world.)

    #1291455
    Joseph
    Participant

    Satmar is large in Boro Park. And they’ve outgrown Williamsburg and have moved into the surrounding neighborhoods (Bed-Stuy, Crown Heights, etc.) and they’re large in Lakewood too, as well as in Canada, Belgium, the UK and Israel.

    #1291456
    5ish
    Participant

    Chassidus Chabad today is the logical extension of itself from generation to generation dating to the Admor Hazaken.

    Today as in yesteryear Chassidus Chabad is focused on personal avoda through the refinement of character via the subjugation of the emotive attributes to the intellectual attributes. This is accomplished through intellectual meditation on how Divinity (elokus) permeates all the worlds, and how all the worlds are as naught before the Holy One Blessed Be He.

    #1291457
    Gales
    Participant

    Simple answer: Too many Jews are amei haaretz.
    Ein Am Haaretz Chosid!

    #1291461
    golfer
    Participant

    AvramMD,
    LOL

    And,
    Are you perhaps familiar with the term, “koshi ha’shibud”?

    #1291460
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Joy in avodas Hashem is not exclusive to Chasidim. Litvish Jews also grow up loving and enjoying the Torah. Ever see Simchas Torah in a litvish yeshiva? Nor do Chabad have an exclusive on chasidus. My husband and I once went thru the alphabet and we came up with several names of chasidus sects for practically every letter (ok, maybe not Q or X).
    This is probably very simplistic, but I would say the differences are that chasidus has more of an outward show of that joy, an emphasis on avoda and kedusha, and the centrality of a Rebbe to channel/develop a person’s avoda. Litvish traditionally placed more of an emphasis on Torah learning, the Rav is a teacher of Torah and a guide in Halacha and Hashkafa, but is not needed for an individual to get close to Hashem.
    Most Litvish people I know would never consider becoming Chasidish, and vice-versa. Of course, FFB don’t usually choose their derech, but follow more or less what their families/communities do. So while certain chasidish sects are very appealing to Baalei teshuva, you don’t see significant movement towards them from other frum streams.
    That said, the line have blurred significantly in the past few generations. Many chasidus streams are very into Torah learning, and many Litvish people treat their Rabbanim the way chasidim treat their Rebbes. I would dare to say that both movements have gained from the others.

    #1291465
    The little I know
    Participant

    My answer to the title question is that not Chassidim are Chassidic either. What was once only a reference to a particular approach to Avodas Hashem has become a sociological label. It has become enormously difficult to know anything about someone’s Avodas Hashem by which European city is the brand name for the Rebbe they follow or the kehila where they associate. For that matter, Litvishe are not Litvish either. These are labels applied for convenience, and are more related to someone’s affiliations and attire. And even these have proven to be rather fluid and dynamic.

    Someone I know compares different Chassidic groups to competitive sports teams, where the focus on the real rules of the game is very secondary to the competition and pursuit of victory. Just a few generations ago, there was a preoccupation with being better at fulfilling the Ratzon Hashem, with nuances of simcha, certain minhagim, recognizing the kedushas haneshomoh of the “simple” Yid, and the self effacing chesed to those in need. Sadly, many of these are no longer the hallmarks of chassidus. The focus has strayed deep into the the chitzoniyus, the glitter and pomp, and the photographic publicity of the “grandeur” of the particular groups/leaders. The Litvishe velt is not far behind on this either.

    I have often wondered whether someone could create an app that would identify true Yir’as Shomayim, or a sensor that would display real kedusha. We are being physically blinded from these with the flashing lights of chitzoniyus, and deluded into believing that it is the color of the beketshe or the number of spectators that determines one’s true spiritual value. It is my firm belief that the Baal Shem Tov did not subscribe to this secular focus.

    #1291566
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    i def understood the op meant “chassidic” not “chossid” like in chazal but wtvr. Cud be (but not sure) there was always an undersatnding by litvish as well to avoid depression and have a joy in life and yiddishkeit. Regardless, nowadays theres for sure an awareness in most litvish yeshivas about it. Modern psychology also caught on to the importance of happiness.
    also,
    גהנום
    Different strokes for differnt neshamos.

    I know a few peopl that discovered chassidus (each one their flavor) after they finished bais medrash and are thrilled. BH. I’l try to explain what i feel to be the answer of op later imyh.

    #1291580
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Light bright: Listen to your own preaching. Did you first ask how come no one else knows how to do Avodas Hashem properly? And then followed with please remember that this is a lashon hara free zone in your response.

    I know this will never get approved. But this is classic Chabad debate tactics.

    #1291612
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Midwestener- Thanks for asking me to clarify my OP, because it was clearly taken mistakenly.

    I asked how do non-Chassidus frum Jews learn how to do Avodas Hashem on their? What do they learn that brings out their ahavas for Avodas Hashem?

    In the OP I stated: “how do frum Jews grow up loving and enjoying Torah without Chassidus?”

    My lashon hara comment was a reminder that this is not a forum to speak against Chassidus or compare Chassidus in a way that would be lashon hara.

    Does that make sense now?

    Thanks!

    #1291616
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Oh to answer your first question Midwesterner, it’s no. I did not.

    And the previous post explains what I did ask 🙂

    Thanks!

    #1291624
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Anything in Chassidus that is emesdik is from the Torah. That means that it was part of the Torah before Chassidus existed and will continue to be part of the Torah even if Chassidus does become extinct (not that I think that is happening; I am just making a point).

    What Chassidus accomplished was to bring out certain aspects of the Torah that may have become somewhat forgotten or neglected by the rest of the Jewish people. It is possible that those aspects are still easier to find in Chassidic writings/shiurim/communities. But if they are emesdik, they are in the same Torah that we all learn and theoretically, one should be able to find them without Chassidus.

    As I think others may have mentioned (I only skimmed the thread), the lines are somewhat blurred today, so most of the important teachings of Chassidus have been imbibed by the rest of the Torah world. But it may still be easier to find some of those concepts in the Chassidish world.

    It is also important to remember that there it is possible to be a shtark Litvak yet learn Chassidus and absorb some of its teachings.

    #1291631
    GAON
    Participant

    LB –
    “Background: Recently I talked to my Rebbetzin about how sometimes when I listen to shiurim, I feel terribly guilty afterward. Even if I do more mitzvot after, I still feel horrible and like I don’t do enough or learn enough and am not enough.”

    Now here is the key question – why and in what way do you feel “guilty”? Is it something that YOU are at fault and is brought out through (I assume) Mussar kind of shiur? Or, is it something in the sense of a shiur reflecting the negative part of the human.
    Better know in the terms of Hashkfah “Shiflos haAdom” vs Gadlut HaBorah” which has been an ongoing debate.
    In any case, there were Mussar Movements like Novardak that reflected the above i.e. of “perfecting” the faulty human nature to its best possible, via working on eliminating all faulty human acts “shiflos haAdom”, and is a whole topic on its own. But as far as I am aware, that method is no longer followed even by the most extreme Yeshivish mussarniks and, was never used for women.
    Furthermore, I don’t think anyone will disagree that being ‘depressed’ about Mitzvos etc is NOT the way.

    #1291634
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LB: Your question is not new; basically goes to the core of what the debate was between the misnagdim and the chasidim 200 – 300 years ago and still true to this very day.

    Your question “how do frum Jews grow up loving and enjoying Torah without Chassidus?” Because we learned from our Roshei Yeshivos, Menahalim, and Rabbeim; we learned from the gedolim of yesteryear and the gedolim of today. Read the biographies of R’ Ahron Kotler, R Moshe Feinstein, R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky, R’ Elchonon Wasserman, R’ Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, The Chazon Ish, R’ Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg, (and the list goes on). I don’t think any of them would be considered “chasidim” as we define the term today; yet each one of then had a simchas hachayim that cannot be easily described.

    #1291643
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    GAON: Everything!

    In those times when I feel immense guilt after a shiur, it’s a whole bunch of doubting and judging myself.

    For example, a shiur talks about how Hashem gives us challenges and we’re supposed to thank G-d for everything. I think about how I said “no” to taking on another assignment because it was interfering with my health and I was doing too much “people pleasing” by saying “yes yes yes yes” to every request. Since asserting myself is challenging, I doubted myself after listening to this shiur (and not only this one) and wondered if I just should have done it because maybe Hashem wanted me to keep going (although I was actually doing the right thing but I felt wrong about it because I wanted to do more, no matter the expense, just like the shiur seemed to say when I internalized it – but it actually did not intend to say what I thought it did).

    Another example is when I listened to a shiur on dating and marriage, and feel like what am I doing caring about whether I have enough money to eat next month when I’m not even married yet?! I must not have my priorities together. This shiur says that I cannot fulfill my soul’s potential without being married and I am so caught up in survival that maybe I am missing out on my life’s mission. And after I talked to my rebbetzin about this guilt, she said that I need a livelihood and it doesn’t go against Torah to focus on a job, and to take it in steps, pretty much. So just because I am not married yet doesn’t mean that I am not doing enough or being enough, and I don’t have to feel guilty about it.

    My rebbetzin said it’s not like Torah is here, and the rest of your life is there. Torah enriches every part of your life, she explained. — Which made learning Torah and understanding the message way more digestible.

    Thank you! 🙂

    #1291675
    lesschumras
    Participant

    LB, with all due respect, enough already. I understand that you were mekarev by Chabad, that you are enamored by Chabad but it’s not for everybody. By claiming not to understand why others don’t see things as clearly as you do and why they don’t become chabad you are in effect dismissing their hashkafas

    #1291672
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, wondering how non-Chassidic frum Jews are all happy and loving Torah and mitzvot without Chassidic teachings the outlook.

    Is the idea of someone being happy and loving Torah and mitzvos in a non-chassidic framework so foreign and alien to you that it is completely inconceivable?

    The Wolf

    #1291714

    Some distinctions need to be made:
    Chassidus, the movement created by the Baal Shem Tov
    Chassidus, the set of teachings, which includes teachings found elsewhere
    Chassidus, the way of life of certain Jews today
    Chassidus, the trait of Chazal’s “Chassid” (as explained in Mesillas Yesharim)

    #1291715

    or a sensor that would display real kedusha

    Aura photography, according to a book I have lying around. : )

    #1291734
    yytz
    Participant

    Lightbright, to answer your original question, you’re right that same kinds of themes that are emphasized in chassidus (such as joy, faith, love of Hashem, etc.) are also found in the non-Chassidic Orthodox world today as well. Some versions of Litvish mussar are quite similar to chassidus in their overall emphases. Often MO or Litvish rabbis study chassidus or quote chassidic teachings in their drashas. And many chassidic bachurim go to Litvish yeshivas. So there’s a lot of mixture nowadays. Most people stay in the group their parents are in and are perfectly fine with that (though perhaps some of them feel uninspired and would benefit by venturing out a bit to other paths within Orthodoxy.)

    Even 100-200 years ago the stereotype of the Warm Chassid and Cold Litvak weren’t exactly true (there are very spiritual seforim by Litvaks, like R’ Alexander Zuskind hundreds of years ago for example), but now it’s probably less true.

    I personally gravitate toward chassidus as you do (especially Breslov), but I also appreciate the teachings of many non-chassidic rabbanim like Rav Hirsch and the Litvish rabbis I know. Everyone is different, and it is often said that people’s neshamas naturally gravitate toward certain approaches that appeal to them and provide them what they need at that time to grow closer to Hashem. Hope that makes sense!

    #1291762
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “By claiming not to understand why others don’t see things as clearly as you do and why they don’t become chabad you are in effect dismissing their hashkafas”

    classic missionarry tactic.

    #1291737
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    lesschumras, you have a right to how you feel and see it.

    I wouldn’t be here asking if I didn’t want to get to know other perspectives. I have gone to other orthodox shuls and talked to other orthodox rabbonim besides Chabad ones. So far I have not connected to other ways. I want to understand how it works for you.

    Wolf, yes somewhat!

    #1291796
    Avi K
    Participant

    LU, you are correct but so is everything said by the Mitnagdim. So are rationalism and mysticism. The latter are a big difference between Litvaks and Chassidim. The former will not pasken according to all kinds of kabbalistic ideas and the latter do. Even the idea of daat Torah is different. A Litvak (I was told this by a Litvak rabbi) beleives that learning Gemara at a very high level teches a person to analyze all problems whereas a Chassid believes that his rebbe/mekubal has a direct pipeline to what they are saying in Heaven.

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