August 7, 2017 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1333338
The guy has to plan out the date. Brainstorm where to go. Make sure he has a clean car. Cover all the costs for travel as well as the costs for the activity or the eating at the restaurant or whatever. It might cost him a small fortune, especially if there’s multiple dates with her. Pick the girl up and take her home. Speak to her parents. Walk her to the door.
The girl just needs to be picked up, eat and be ferried home. All on a silver platter. She doesn’t even have to think where to go, what’s open, directions to get there, parking, etcetera.
Of course there’s some exceptions, like if it’s an out-of-town date or something else. But for the regular run of the mill local date all she really needs to do is get dressed.
Why do they complain so much? Even if he turns out to be completely not her parsha, it’s no worse than if she didn’t go out that night.August 7, 2017 6:35 am at 6:35 am #1333374
Why do they complain so much? Even if he turns out to be completely not her parsha, it’s no worse than if she didn’t go out that night.
Because, on the negative side, the emotional investment a girl goes through is tenfold that of a man. And that’s just while deciding what to wear.August 7, 2017 7:37 am at 7:37 am #1333386
“She doesn’t even have to think where to go” wait is Joseph saying that usually women do have the ability and right to speak??August 7, 2017 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1333390
How long do you think it takes a guy to get physically ready as oppose to a girl? (hair, nails, makeup, clothing decision. etc)
Secondly; A girls generally invests far more emotionally – especially if she doesn’t have a list of boys waiting.
Furthermore – Many guys really don”t do too much “brainstorming” about where to go. They have a list of places from all their friends. Ever hear of Starbucks and Dave and Busters? Classic. Abigails or Le Marias?. You mentioned: “walk her to the door”….I honestly didn’t view mentchlechkeit as so burdensome.
One advice for marriage – try to view things from the other perspective.August 7, 2017 8:08 am at 8:08 am #1333392
Getting dressed for a free meal at a nice restaurant is worth getting dressed even if the date turns out to be a dud. At least she got a nice meal that was paid for her.August 7, 2017 8:48 am at 8:48 am #1333396
Oh hush up with the whining and learn how to be a real man.
1. Real men plan and make decisions.
2. Keep the car clean on a regular basis, and it won’t be an ordeal to clean it for a date, and as an added bonus, it won’t smell like a decomposing squirrel, which will go a long way towards reducing complaints.
3. Nobody’s forcing anyone to spend a fortune. It’s a choice, so own it.
4. Be grateful for the opportunity to speak with the people who may eventually become your in-laws. Nerve wracking? Sure! But grow up and be a man.
If this stuff bothers you, then date a feminist who insists on paying her own way. Or stay home. The “boys rule, girls drool” stuff got old long before you turned 10. Just saying.August 7, 2017 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1333399
Joseph, I hope you are kidding and just trolling. If not you seriously need help.
You must be new here. Welcome 🙂August 7, 2017 9:29 am at 9:29 am #1333412
Getting dressed up for a girl is probably never worth it. It is an ugly, painful process to go through just for a date.August 7, 2017 10:27 am at 10:27 am #1333510
Joseph: Very simple, the boy could be:
Thinking back to my dating days over 30 years ago, I had my share of bad dates. I also believed that a number of the girls I dated did not think we had a good date.
Maybe you had to much to eat and drink at CTL’s daughters chasunah!August 7, 2017 10:51 am at 10:51 am #1333527
It’s like most other things in life. Men get the short end of the stick. I agree with your premise completely. The girl sits there, orders food and doesn’t pay, and generally could care less about the guy; she cares about his looks, his status or parnassa, etc.August 7, 2017 11:37 am at 11:37 am #1333569
It’s like most other things in life. Men get the short end of the stick.
Ugh, more whining. Sorry you have to wake up early to say shelo asani isha, had to learn Torah on Sundays in high school, or whatever else makes you feel aggrieved.
The girl sits there, orders food and doesn’t pay,
If this really bothers you, then let her know that she’ll need to pay for her food. Nobody’s forcing you to pay for anything.
and generally could care less about the guy; she cares about his looks, his status or parnassa, etc.
Seems like you couldn’t care less about “the gal” either. You might get better results from your dating if you didn’t start out hating her guts because she’s female.August 7, 2017 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1333573
I’ve been married long enough to know that complaining that women have it easy never turns out well.August 7, 2017 11:58 am at 11:58 am #1333586
Joseph sounds like a real male chauvinist. I, too, have been married quite a long time BH. If my daughter would be set up with a guy with Joseph’s attitude, I’d nix it in a millisecond. Any girl you date just may be the one you choose to be your wife and mother of your children. As such, she deserves respect and consideration. We have all had dates where we knew immediately that it wasn’t a good match, but yet, you took the girl out and behaved like a gentleman. If you don’t, the word will get around. And Guys, contrary to what you think about yourself, or what your mommy or rebbie told you, you are not G-d’s gift to humanity.
The girl takes the time to look presentable, you should too. I don’t care if you wear a hat or white shirt, but dress mentchlich. If you don’t have a beard, shave for the date.August 7, 2017 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1333638
Avram, Meno: Read the OP again. I’m not complaining whatsoever. I’m quite content and happy with the arrangement.
I’m inquiring why any girl would complain.August 7, 2017 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1333662
I’m not complaining whatsoever…I’m inquiring why any girl would complain.
They don’t complain. They just inquire why dating is so hard.August 7, 2017 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1333680
You are correct. If the references would be straight forward and state; he is a boor, a bore, smells like a boar, dresses like a slob, has the middos of a racoon and is a self absorbed baby, and in fact he turns out to be just that, you are correct, they have nothing to complain about. However, when they are told he is the creme de la creme of his yeshiva, the gaonis to be the next rosh yeshiva, with middos that make him a shoo in as the next mashgiach, and he turns out to be a boor etc… they have every right to complain. either they were lied to by the references, or the guy was deliberately a jerk.August 7, 2017 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1333683
Joseph and Yekke2 are both right so maybe the Chassidish way is better – just meet in the parents or the shadchan’s home. No deciding where to go etc and the girl is not expected to arrive as though she is a film star.August 7, 2017 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1333684
Are you crazy?
Seriously? and what if the guy doesn’t know how to hold a conversation? what if he is obnoxious? those are reasons not to have a good date. and believe they happenAugust 7, 2017 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1333697
“They don’t complain. They just inquire why dating is so hard.”
Meno: How is dating so hard for her if the guy is ferrying her around, almost spoon-feeding her? Is getting dressed really *that* hard?
Unless you mean *getting* a date is hard for her. That’s another discussion (of which you can find many on this forum.)August 7, 2017 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1333702
My wife has numerous personal stories that go like this
“sorry, I took a car service here, but it looks like he left so can you drive”
or “my parents dropped me off, can you drive”
or “my father drove me here because I don’t have a license, do you mind if he drives us”
or “I know it’s pouring , but I don’t have a license, so can we take train?”
She drove her dates numerous times (and no, they didn’t get a second date)August 7, 2017 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1333706
“Getting dressed for a free meal at a nice restaurant is worth getting dressed even if the date turns out to be a dud. At least she got a nice meal that was paid for her.”
Restaurants on a date???!!!! Are you modern or something????That sounds like the height of pritzus to me!! (https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-dating-tznius 🙂August 7, 2017 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1333712
mentsch1: Those stories you describe (I think) are fairly uncommon, but even when that does happen that he can’t drive for some reason (no car, etc.), what’s so geferlech if instead of him driving she drives or if she supplies the car or they take an Uber or car service? Is that really the end of the world?August 7, 2017 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1333713
Yekke2: “Because, on the negative side, the emotional investment a girl goes through is tenfold that of a man. And that’s just while deciding what to wear.”
lol. +1August 7, 2017 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1333715
Lilmod: Of course this isn’t ideal. But I’m dealing with the metzius of our weak, sinful, generation. Ideally, of course, we should change how Sima, above, in her comment rightfully suggested. But until we reach that madreiga (may it be very soon) we need to deal with the facts on the ground that the non-Chasidish and super-Yeshivish oilem deals with this.August 7, 2017 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1333750
Read the OP again. I’m not complaining whatsoever.
Then your entire first paragraph is superfluous.August 7, 2017 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1333751
And how do you know Meno was responding to you, and not to dovrosenbaum?August 7, 2017 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1333752
what’s so geferlech if instead of him driving she drives or if she supplies the car or they take an Uber or car service? Is that really the end of the world?
Certainly not, but the polite thing for him to do is to inform his date in advance.August 7, 2017 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1333761
Joseph and Yekke2 are both right so maybe the Chassidish way is better – just meet in the parents or the shadchan’s home. No deciding where to go etc and the girl is not expected to arrive as though she is a film star.
I dunno what you think I said, but I definitely didn’t agree with Joseph.August 7, 2017 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1333762
LU: In my day (30 years ago) taking date to a restaurant was “normal” even in yeshivish circles. It is not pretzus.August 7, 2017 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1333769
Yekke: Sima was saying that both your and my points were (independently) correct. And that both of our points leads to her conclusion.
Not that your point was a proof or agreement to my point.August 7, 2017 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1333767
Avram, my first (and second) paragraph was only intended to build the case that the girl has it, comparatively, easy on the date compared to the guy.
Regarding Meno, since he didn’t address it to anyone else, I presumed he was addressing his first comment to the OP.
Were you addressing Dov, Meno?
Regarding mentsch1, I agree it would’ve been mentchlich to give her advanced notice about that. But I got the sense that mentsch1 was kvetching more that he didn’t drive or wasn’t licensed than that he didn’t let her know so before coming to the house. (i.e. He ends by “She drove her dates numerous times.” Why complain about that if it was only a matter of not being notified?)
Am I mistaken, mentsch1?August 7, 2017 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1333779
In my day (30 years ago) taking date to a restaurant was “normal” even in yeshivish circles. It is not pretzus.
Tell that to JosephAugust 7, 2017 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1333796
“In my day (30 years ago) taking date to a restaurant was “normal” even in yeshivish circles. It is not pretzus.”
My comment was meant “tongue in cheek” (that’s why I put a smiley, because I didn’t want anyone to think I meant it and that I was, c”v, criticizing people who go to restaurants on dates).
I was saying that to Joseph because he has come out against people doing things on dates, as seen in the thread I linked as well as his above response.
And btw, if you check out that thread, you’ll see that I came out in favor of people doing stuff on dates.
Actually, the reason I prefer to do things on dates is precisely because of the OP’s reasoning – if you do something fun on a date, it is harder to have a bad date. The reason why most of my dates are bad is because we don’t do anything, so if you don’t like the guy, it is just a waste of time and energy.
I would be able to go out more often if the guys I went out with actually took me to restaurants or to somewhere fun.August 7, 2017 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1334321
picture this : every body has built in expectations (both male and female) , and not only it didn’t go for her,
but it was , say ‘pretty bad’; if she would have known how it would come out, she would for sure have elected to stay home, rather than go out for dinner, albeit the expensive and nice restaurant ; neither her nor you are there for the dinner; you are meeting hoping that it can work , and for sure the emotional aspect or expectation is usually stronger for her , and so is the disappointment;
Hope you find your bashert soon!August 8, 2017 6:58 am at 6:58 am #1334371
I guess chivalry doesn’t exist anymore. You are looking for your future wife, the mother of your children! You should be putting her on a pedestal and treating her like a queen. Girls fo through just to GET a date, when the FINALLY happens , the prep starts. What to wear, clothing, shoes, jewelry, makeup, hair….what’s the weather going to be like, is he short, can I wear heels, is it casual or fancy……the list goes on and on. The amount of time and effort put in goes WAY beyond what you have to do. Now one one says that you can’t decide WITH the girl where to go…etc
Bottom line, treat her right, even if she’s not for you, because someday, you’ll be glad you did and just wish you did more! 😀August 8, 2017 6:58 am at 6:58 am #1334375
LU: Sorry i missed the smiley. I was taught to put the smiley after the text, not after the link.August 8, 2017 6:58 am at 6:58 am #1334380
Is this a joke?? Clearly a man wrote this article! The girl has to have anxiety of meeting a stranger, going to an unknown place. Looking perfect, spending money on clothing, shoes and makeup. This post is seriously ridiculous. The girl has to have her picture yet the boy can just submit his resume. This post is so upsetting , biased and uninformed.August 8, 2017 6:58 am at 6:58 am #1334382
Another thing! What kind of dating are you talking about because most Heimish/Yeshivish dates take the girl to a hotel lobby and buy her a soda. How awkward and uncomfortable for the girl! Also, all the girls I know can pay for their own meal. So no need to waste time on a bad date for a free meal.August 8, 2017 6:58 am at 6:58 am #1334389
Joseph- in my former dating experiences there were plenty of times that
the guy did not clean his car…
or it reeked of cigarette smoke…
or he drove like a maniac and I was scared for my life…
or the AC leaked on my feet so I could not put them down in front of me, and when I said something, he turned the AC lower only to turn it up again shortly afterwards…
or the OOT guy who had absolutely no plans for the evening, and turns to me, where should we go? Then he proceeds to tell me about all the wonderful tourist places he had been to that day…
or the guy who calls me an hour after he was supposed to meet me to explain that he will be late since someone in shul asked him to help him with something, and this was a date that had already been rescheduled after he previously canceled it just a few hours before it was supposed to take place.
or the one who started yelling at me for being nosy when i innocently asked him to tell me about his siblings…
or the one who interrogated me and argued about how I could possibly be a good mother, and then when he asked me out again at the end of the date, and I (diplomatically) said that I have to think about it and rather go through the shadchan, he yelled at me for wasting his time.
or…well you get the idea.
So yes, a girl can have a bad date.August 8, 2017 6:58 am at 6:58 am #1334390
I agree with apushtayid, but I would add this:
“When they are told he is the creme de la creme of his yeshiva, the gaonis to be the next rosh yeshiva, with middos that make him a shoo in as the next mashgiach, and he turns out to be a boor, a bore, smells like a boar, dresses like a slob, has the middos of a racoon and is a self absorbed baby,” and then has the nerve to say no after a single 90-minute date and gives no real reason other than perhaps there was no chemistry, then the girl feels that she has the right to complain. Wouldn’t you?August 8, 2017 9:52 am at 9:52 am #1334551
Umm, Nechomah, why would you have wanted him to not say no if he truly was a boor who was a bore smelling like a boar?August 8, 2017 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1334562
Those sound like horrible experiences, but B”H they revealed their characters on the first dates, rather than fooling you with a show.August 8, 2017 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1334564
why would you have wanted him to not say no if he truly was a boor who was a bore smelling like a boar?
I can’t speak for Nechomah, but probably because it added insult to injury.August 8, 2017 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1334567
The best answer to your OP is this golden nugget from Shloime above:
neither her nor you are there for the dinner; you are meeting hoping that it can work
Fundamentally it’s not about the dinner, the activity, the walk to the door, etc. It’s about finding a spouse. So it’s frustrating and disappointing to find a louse.August 8, 2017 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1334603
Dr Pepper, anyone?August 8, 2017 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1334572
Avram, I don’t disagree with your most recent comment. But (correctly) using that criteria you should also be frustrated and disappointed that your date wasn’t the right person for you even if he/she was a very nice refined Yid.August 8, 2017 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1334614
But (correctly) using that criteria you should also be frustrated and disappointed that your date wasn’t the right person for you even if he/she was a very nice refined Yid.
1. There is a much higher potential for a very nice refined Yid to be the right person. A good marriage is based more on a constant, conscious choice to commit oneself to Hashem and his/her spouse than checking off every random box on a list, or some hocus pocus concept of “besheret”.
2. Even if the nice refined Yid was definitely not the right person, despite the frustration and disappointment, there is more hope for the next date than if the previous date was a dud.August 8, 2017 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1334696
frustrated and disappointed doesnt necessarily mean “bad date”.August 8, 2017 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1334689
I think Joseph’s point is that on the shidduch itself it can be harder for the boy than for the girl. He has the stress of driving which is always much worse when there’s someone else in the car, particularly a shiduch. Since he arranged it he mentally takes achrayus for the success of the venue and that she should like it. And the worry that the condition of his car won’t put her off.
It is true the girl also has to worry about how she looks and dresses and what she says, however those are the very things which the whole purpose of the shidduch is to ascertain. If the boy only needed to worry about the main relevant points then it would be like with like. However I hope that the success of the shidduch doesn’t depend on how he drives on a shidduch, so this is secondary, and he has all these zeitige secondary daagos dumped on his head alone. How is a quieter boy supposed to juggle all these things while also maintaining scintillating conversation. A quieter girl doesn’t have to worry about any of these things while on the actual shidduch, and the things she worries about before the shidduch are things which are “the etzem zach”.August 8, 2017 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1334711
Is it creepy when married men are obsessed with the dating experience?
I think so.
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