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This is true. Your relatives are fauxreidim.
We really need a “like” button.
They are not Yerushalmis either, they just live there and go to Brisk
Mdd, you are making the same mistake by characterizing the entire chareidi population as not working.
Let me ask you something: If a chiloni husband works and his wife stays home, are they considered a working family?
The answer should be yes.
Then by the same token, if I am working and my husband is in kollel, then my family is also a working family.
And if like most chareidi families, the husband is either working or working and learning, and the wife is working, then why are we not considered working families? Because many of us don’t make enough to cross the income tax threshold?
I will reiterate: Any chiloni family is more than welcome to have the number of children we have, and make the same income. If they do, they also will not have to pay income tax.
They are not Yerushalmis either, they just live there and go to Brisk
Which Brisk (there are a few)? Brisk (depending on which one, IIRC) is practically an American Yeshiva. Had you told me Ponevitch, then I might agree.
The Brisk that hates the Medina and only speaks Yiddish
The Brisk that hates the Medina and only speaks Yiddish
Yup, that one. They only let you sit in the room for shiur after a waiting period?
Yup, that one. They only let you sit in the room for shiur after a waiting period?
Dont know about that, never asked that question. It isnt like Ive ever been there.
I think I did hear you had to fight for a chair though
I find it interesting that no matter the topic at hand, zahavasdad knows someone in that situation, and that someone usually has a different experience/tradition/outcome/{fill in the blank] ect then most people.
EY mom and other esteemed EY ladies, what gets the frei mad is the fact that the Chareidim need to be on the government payroll because the husbands would not work. The benefits come from their taxes. If all Chilonim did what you suggest, the Israeli economy would collapse.
Again, I do not believe that an average Bnei Brak wife goes to work as a computer programmer and brings in enough gelt to almost support the family.
Mdd, “the chareidim” are not on the government’s payroll, at least not anymore than anyone else in this country. That’s the point you’re missing.
Men who learn in kollel are not the equivalent of a university student. They would be the equivalent of people who are in research or who are part of a think tank. Are they considered people who are not working? No. Why not? Because what it comes down to in the end is that the secular establishment views Torah learning as a waste of time, but research as a valid pursuit. So the secular establishment has no problem with the government supporting research and think tanks, but has a major problem with kollelim.
The kollel stipend is the only one that can be classified as benefitting chareidim alone. The child subsidy benefits anyone who qualifies. It is not based on income. If you make 5,000,000 shekel a year and have 2,3,4 or 5 children, you will get the same child subsidy as one who makes 5,000 shekel a year and has the same amount of children.
And I have another bit of news: The average Bnei Brak housewife might work as a programmer, but her husband is not in kollel. He is working, too – and most likely still does not have to pay income tax because they are not making enough to cross the threshold. And the kitzvat yeladim is not what is going to make the difference.
The myth that all chareidi men are in kollel is ridiculous. Among young couples, it might very well be that the majority of men are in kollel. But not in the chareidi community as a whole.
mdd: have you considered the possibility that you are wrong?
Are you basic your assumption based on first hand knowledge of the Israelis in the chareidi cities?
And as we have said countless times – not only as computer programmers. There are lots of jobs out there (other than teaching) that make enough to almost support a family. Combined with the husuband’s cheder/yeshiva job, it very well could be just barely enough.
The frei are mad for 2 reasons:
1. They have been fed the same lies you have by the media all of their lives, so they don’t know the reality. I can’t tell you hoe few chareidim most chilonim have ever met, and when they meed you they say “you are not like the rest of them”
2. Because of the army. Another topic – let’s not get into it here please.
Just because the frei are mad, doesn’t mean that what they have been told and are saying is true. The perfect example was this add that datot is 3500 shekels……
When you are in a university, the grants are only for a limit period of time with a goal (usually 4-5 years) and then you are cut off. The money you get is usually towards tution, not living expenses. Kollel is open ended. They also throw you out of college if you are not able to keep up. Not everyone who starts will finish.
How often do you hear about a Rosh Yeshiva throwing out someone who just isnt cut out to learn all day (I am sure it happens, but its not frequent)
As for as research grants, There isnt just a handout, you have to submit a proposal for the grant and defend why you should get it, It can takes months or years to get them , they are not handing them out so easily. And not everyone who applies gets them, There are alot more applicants than money avaiable
Universities dont throw out students too often, either. And grad students are being paid a lot more than Kollel students.
Universities throw out students all the time, Its called Academic Probation, If your grade point average falls below 2.0 you have one semester to get it back out or you are gone and you Flunk out.
Grad Students are only paid because they teach classes, if they dont teach they are not paid. Sometimes they also do other jobs on campus like tutoring or office work as well
“Besides, even a 1.0 Torah student is protecting Klal Yisroel as much as a 4.0 Torah student. It isn’t results or test marks that count. It is effort”
This.
A 2.0 is a C. In Liberal arts courses A C is a joke, but in Math and Science its harder.
Ive been in Math classes where the highest grade on a test was a 46 (out of 100)
They do not give you an E for effort in an University. A good Effort but a D grade gets you the door and no more money
“They do not give you an E for effort in an University. A good Effort but a D grade gets you the door and no more money “
Anu Amailim V’Hem Amailim.
(as a side note, I used to be more on the side of the “less chumras” members of the board. These days, I’m finding myself agreeing to the “more Chumras” side more often than not. Perhaps it is because the discussions have been Halachic, not chumra.)
If Hashem wants to pay for Effort, That is his business and he will provide.
What if you hired a Torah Tutor for your son and he didnt teach him anything, Would you pay him for Effort?
A question for the Israelis: how much does a Chareidi family with 6 kids make a month?
Gaw- i noticed the shift. for a while i thought it was sarcasm but its seems i was wrong. darn. you were fun to hahndle with. and you could take a joke.
mdd:
I am assuming that you are asking how much they get from the government per month.
If the husband is in kollel, then he gets 750 shekel a month.
Kitzvat yeladim: Same as any Israeli family with 6 kids, I think it comes to somewhere between 1200-1400 shekel a month (that’s an estimated guess based on the amount of children I have).
EY Mom: That’s about $500 a month, combined. How does a family of 8 (two parents, six children) survive on so little? Apparently rumors of the government supporting a Kollel lifestyle have been greatly exaggerated!
Actually, I want to know how much they need to make to stay afloat.
Does that 1500 Shelkels include other benefits Like Food Stamps (Whatever the Israelis call it) WIC, Section 8 Housing (again whatever its called in israel) and Kupat Cholim.
In The Us the welfare checks might be small, but food stamps, section 8, medicaid/Chip can begin to add up
The U.S., especially in New York, give a LOT more financial assistance to the poor (and poor is loosely defined in the U.S.) than the Israelis give (to Kollel or any family.)
Zahavasdad, appartments they buy on money collected from the chutz la’Oretz Chareidim.
Lit.K.J., Israelis help Kollel people? I thought you’d claim they rob them.
The Chareidim in EY pay more in Israeli taxes than they claim in Israeli payment benefits.
Zahavasdad, there are no food stamps or Section 8 in Israel. The basic Kupat Cholim “sal” is free for everyone. If you want more extensive coverage, you pay, and everyone pays the same amount up to 4 kids. Over four kids, the rest are free. Bituach Leumi payments are also the same for everyone. If one is working than it is deducted as a percentage of salary, if not then it is a flat rate.
Englishman: exactly. No family can live off what the government gives unless 1) at least one spouse is working at a nice job or 2) they are being supported by someone else. The myth of chareidim “living off the government” is just that – a myth. That is why in most chareidi families with 6 kids, the father is not in kollel. He may be a maggid shiur, a cheder rebbe, a rosh kollel, etc. – but he is working.
As a dati Leumi Israeli taxpayer, I would like to ask..why should my government give kollel families anything? My nephews and grandsons, learn, serve and work…
EY Mom, according to you E.Y. is not different from US as far as staying in kollel goes. That’s a big chiddush.
I just have to chime in on this topic – please see my new CR topic “The Diabetic Man’s Plight” for my thoughts.
By the way, the basic kupot cholim are NOT free. If you are working on a “tlush” (getting a regular salary from a company), then you pay for it off the top of your paycheck. Otherwise, you must pay directly. I don’t know how it works if you are in kollel – maybe they get it free? Also, not sure if you earn below a certain amount, maybe it’s free then too.
Everyone is confusing standard benefits that Israel pays all resident citizens, since Israel is a “welfare state” on a European model – with specific benefits given to those who are learning in government approved kollels. The former are quite liberal, and go someone whether or not they are employed (regardless of if they are making military goods for export, or empoyed as a teacher in a yeshiva, or whatever) and whether or not they are Jewish (as opposed to Palestinian) or whether they support the state (thus even Arabs who advocate destruction of the zionist state and are working towards that goal will still get the benefits if they are Israeli citizens).
Miriam, support of Talmud Torah is a huge mitsvah. Plu, there is a difference between learning a little after work an learning the whole day. Plus, one can not become a Talmid Chocham, a Rov without many years of full-time learning.
As a dati Leumi Israeli taxpayer, I would like to ask..why should my government give kollel families anything? My nephews and grandsons, learn, serve and work…
Let’s start here…
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/who-is-really-on-welfare-basic-hashkapha
akuperma – your claim that “Everyone is confusing standard benefits that Israel pays all resident citizens” with the benefits for kollel people specifically is not true. The fact is that the chareidi people get money from lots of sources, not just the stipends. The idea of giving tax breaks and welfare to the poor is based on the idea that poor people are working hard to earn more money and need a temporar break to get back on their feet. The idea is NOT supposed to be that they just live off of those perksm claiming that anyone can do it if they want to.
EY Mom says that the chilonim also have the choice to have the same number of children and live that lifestyle – but that’s not right! Anyone who chooses to do these things is just living off of tax and tzedaka money. Who gives them the right to choose to do that? You’re taking advantage of someone else’s goodwill when we create a safety net for poor people. The problem is that people choose to go a certain route in life that is more than likely to result in poverty. They then complain that they need money in handouts and can’t afford to pay taxes… but YOU created this situation! Choose NOT to do that! You’re diverting funds that should be available to the poor and disabled (not by their choice).
Miriam, because part of being in society means that some of your tax dollars (or shekels in this case) are always going to go for things you don’t necessarily agree with. Our tax dollars go to subsidizing the theater, the opera, and other entertainment we don’t participate in or even feel is right. (And the kollelim get a lot less government money than the entertainment industry.)
Mdd, I don’t know what you are referring to when you say that staying in kollel in EY is the same as US is a big chiddush. If you’re saying that you always thought that in EY there were more benefits than in the US, then now you know that’s not the case, for sure if you’re talking about NY. The counterbalance to that is that the lifestyle in EY is of a much lower material standard.
And again, as the OP stated in his last comment – chareidim work!! I work, and so does my husband. But we still do not cross the threshold of having to pay income tax.
In Israel, there are NO tangible benefits that are given on basis of income – no food stamps, etc. Kitzvat yeladim is the same for everyone. There are only discounts on taxes like Arnona. Why am I taking advantage because we have a certain amount of children and a certain income?
EY Mom, my impression has always been that: 1)men in E.Y. stay in kollel forever; maybe, a few become Rebbeim or mashgichim once they are middle-aged; 2)women either do not work or work a little; 3) the medinah gives them not-a-lot of money and they live on it.
Mdd – you’re wrong.
1) Men don’t stay in Kollel forever in EY. Who would be the Roshei Yeshiva, maggidei shiur, rebbes, etc, for all of the myriads of men, teens and children that the chareidi system has in it? It cannot just be a few of them.
2) There are plenty of women who DO work, either in chinuch or as secretaries, clerks, etc. Some work out of their houses and some have created jobs to do within their houses – even selling clothes or other things at night from the house is a form of employment. Many do shaitels or have a gan in their house, do babysitting, etc. All of this is “employment”. Yes, the ones in the house do not usually require payment of taxes, but there are plenty of people who do things on the books. It used to be easier to have a sale in your house that the tax authorities would not find out about. Now, with all of the advertisements put out every week, it would not take an employee of Mas Hachnasa long to figure out who has a sale in their house and going to make sure that they declare things properly.
3) Only if you get “Datot” or “Haftachat Hachnasah” (income supplement for those with very low income) do you get money. You’re right, it’s not a lot, but I’m sure no one is “living on it”. Expenses are way tooo high, even on the standard of living here. People have to pay rent/mortgage, food, clothes, etc, just like the rest of people around the world. Not only that, but these people have this crazy idea of buying an apartment for each child (usually the daughter) that gets married. Where exactly do they get the $ from that? Even if they go collecting tzedaka, they also have to pay for a chassanah and all of the other things to set up a house, not just pay for the apartment. That’s why women work.
By the way, to whoever asked, even for someone in kollel, Kupat Cholim is NOT free. You pay a certain set amount for Bituach Leumi per month and from that you are entitled to Kupat Cholim. This is the same rule for anyone who has low income.
EY Mom – you say “chareidim work!! I work, and so does my husband. But we still do not cross the threshold of having to pay income tax.”
That’s entirely my point – even when chareidim work, they still don’t (usually) pass the threshold for paying taxes. There’s a reason for that – because there’s a lack of basic secular education that is statistically proven to increase income. There’s a system and culture in place now that creates this problem and it’s a cyclical problem! The system needs to change in order for chareidi families to be able to work and support their families properly.
You can’t fairly say that I insist on getting a limited secular education, knowing full well that this means there’s a statistically proven likelihood that I won’t earn enough to properly support my family. I’ll then just claim that I’m doing the best I can and it’s the job of the government and all of the people around me to make up he difference. To me, that’s the same thing as a diabetic not taking his medication that is statistically proven to help. He then just claims that he’s doing the best he can & he’s learning Torah so it’s the government and everyone else’s job to make up the difference. This is an abuse of the safety net system that was set up to help poor & disabled people.
I also can’t accept this concept that ‘Hashem will provide as long as I have done my hishtadlus in trying to earn a living’ but then you turn around & do a substandard hishtadlus in trying to earn that living. Yes, our hishtadlus has to be based on the facts of life that Hashem has set up for us and not doing so means that you’re doing a substandard hishtadlus.
Another mashal (I know you may not agree but it’s still useful to illustrate the point) – A person is not allowed to say that I’m doing my hishtadlus by taking my medication once in a while and it’s up to Hashem to take care of me from there. You have to truly do your full, proper hishtadlus. It’s interesting – let’s draw from Rambam. He certainly did get a proper education in both secular & Jewish studies. He provided medical advice to his patients knowing full well that it’s really Hashem that will heal them, not the medication or treatment. None-the-less, it was his job to fully abide by the rules of healthcare known to him at that time and it was the job of the patients to truly follow through on the treatment. Only then could both doctor and patient say they did their fullest hishtadlus and feel good knowing that
Hashem will then take care of them.
The chareidi people do get arnona tax breaks. It’s usually b/c they fall below a specific poverty income and that “entitles” them to a 90%(!!!!) discount. It’s not fair to make me pay more just b/c you didn’t earn enough. Just b/c this isn’t ear marked as a “chareidi-specific” perk doesn’t mean anything. Your answer is just that the chilonim can also take advantage of this perk!?!?! REALLY!?!?! You want to compare yourself to someone who isn’t shomer Torah & Miztvot (yet)?? You do keep the Torah & Mitzvot and are therefore required to be much more strict in doing things properly. Don’t just work the system for your benefit. You should know that’s not what it was created for but you hide behind the idea that other people do it or can do it. That’s not keeping the true halacha.
Gaw- i noticed the shift. for a while i thought it was sarcasm but its seems i was wrong. darn. you were fun to hahndle with. and you could take a joke.
Have no fear. Once we get back to silly things like 4 inches & Tznius, I’ll go back.
As a dati Leumi Israeli taxpayer, I would like to ask..why should my government give kollel families anything? My nephews and grandsons, learn, serve and work…
You may not want to. However, you are (or were) willing to sell for seats in the Knesset.
FYI, the word a lot of you are looking for is “shababnik”. That’s a Chareidi Yeshiva bachur who never shows up to the Beis Medrash but has been enrolled in the Yeshiva for several years in order to get out of Army service. That’s the Israeli equivalent of a 2.0 GPA and they are rarely asked to leave Yeshiva. A good Yeshiva will still have about one out of twenty shababniks for every talmid chacham.
RBS.Jew: Your government passed the silly law. Whose fault is that? If you don’t like it, pass a new law.
WELFARE BENEFITS. Are given to everyone. They are very common in Europe, increasingly common in the USA (Obama is pushing them, the Republicans oppose him). The idea that to a certain extent everyone, regardless of who or what they are, should receive a certain package of benefits. A problem is that (according to conservative economists) they remove the incentive work. Frum Jews generally place a great value on having time for learning, time for family activities (which include learning), and work schedules that avoid hassles – so the effect of welfare benefits is to discourage work. The same has been observed among goyin in general (note the debate between Romney and Obama on these matters). Giving welfare benefits to one group (Arabs who support Hamas, Jewish gangsters, Jews who chose to spend all day being high and playing computer games, etc.), and denying to another group (Jews who spend all day learning Torah and caring for their children), would be considered discriminatory.
KOLLEL BENEFITS are money paid specifically for learning in kollel. This is really a (poorly paid) job, not welfare. If the zionists want to limit them to people who serve in the army it is less controversial – similar to a donor who supports Satmar who doesn’t want his money going to zionists.
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