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Not that long ago there was a letter to the editor about a problem that happened on Shabbos moninging. For the short time that it was listed there were many people suppoting the letter writer and obviously there were a few that felt that he was making a big deal about nothing. Then without warrning the post was gone. In my assumption there were to many negative comments and the editorial staff (who rightfully so) decided that it should be removed. This I have no problem with what so ever.
However, we live in Golus, and unfortunate as it may be, there will be actions that are done in a public setting and while it may be fun at the time, are really creating a chillul Hashem. We need a forum where people can speak up and say, “Hey this isn’t something that a true yiras shamayoim should be doing!” When the act is being done on a public scale, the seriousness intensifies and there should be a kol/voice that goes out that says that this is wrong?
On the other side, when put on display like this, events can easily be taken out of context, misinterpreted, and even cause a big issue than what ahd originally had taken place. There are going to be many types of people who read this forum and all coming from different backgrounds, we need to find a way to create achdus as we all try our best to make Klal Yisroel better.
Any suggestions?
bentzy18,
are u referring to the article about the tznius and drinking issue at a shabbos morning kiddush?
it hasn’t been removed – its at:When you come to the coffeeroom (www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom) , you see a list of the most recent articles but this one is no longer on that list as its not so recent. To find it click on “out of the mailbag” under the “forums” heading near the bottom of the page.
“moninging”
my definition: the sound that coins make when you shake them together.
dont you wish you were able to edit your posts after they are posted?
What if Daas Torah disagrees?
What if Daas Torah disagrees?
Then do as Daas Torah directs you to act.
But by then it’s too late.
It’s never too late to follow Daas Torah.
What if they tell you you shouldn’t have called them?
Follow their directives.
But by then it’s too late.
With all the respect due to Daas Torah, we are suffering in the present generation from a lack of leadership. Our “Daas Torah” are learned scholars, and each has their areas of great expertise. Yet, many are limited and handicapped when advice is needed about a great many subjects. We tend to seek their advice regarding medical matters, when the greatest proportion of them have zero knowledge in the subject. Many are sought for guidance on business matters. Yet, their knowledge of the subject can range from the common place common sense, or often less than that. These gaps in knowledge do not diminish their chashivus or their value to the Klal. But much as one would not likely consult a Rav about an issue with a malfunctioning washing machine, or a stalled car, one gotta wonder why we are expected to bring these questions to a Rav. Seeking the brocho of a Rav or other talmid chochom is praiseworthy. But advice?
One can, perhaps should ask shailos regarding the permissibility of discussing certain things in public. There can easily be questions about lashon horah, defamation, etc., which can be matters of halacha. Outside of that, one needs to know a bit more about the breadth of knowledge, outside of Torah erudition, that qualifies the Rav to respond to requests for guidance and advice.
There is another take on this subject. Airing in public. What today is not already public? We can consider the far reaching spying of NSA, turning on webcams remotely, scanning and screening email, etc. I doubt the NSA would find anything of interest on my computer, but the delusion that it is private is B”H not one of my symptoms.
Does discussion about some of the hot subjects that appear in articles on YWN, or some of the discussions and debates here in the CR constitute airing dirty laundry? Is it considered public? Were these positions ever secret or private?
So I’m not sure that Daas Torah has the ability to be the ultimate guide here. And I am not sure that the CR is considered airing dirty laundry in public. That’s my two cents.
TLIK thinks he’s more qualified to answer this than talmidei chachomim.
In every generation, there have been people who though they were just as, or more qualified, than the gedolim of that generation – השופט אשר יהיה בימים ההם.
In Moshe Rabeinu’s time, it was קרח ועדתו.
I think you should seriously think about if you want him/them to be your role model(s).
Like a good friend of mine once told me. If after 120 they say, “why did you do this”? and i’l answer “cuz thats what the leaders said to do,” i think id be in better shape than “because i thought i knew better”
DY:
Actually not. But the opening question can mean many different things, and until these are clarified, no one can answer anything.
First, there needs to be a defining of the terminology. What are public issues? What is dirty laundry? What is considered airing? Are these halacha questions, or are we seeking wisdom to guide us?
Second, Talmidei Chachomim are exactly that. They might be poskim, but might not have smichas chachomim to pasken shailos. They have their specialties. Some have many, others have few. Some are knowledgeable about many non-Torah issues, many are not. Can a Rosh Yeshiva guide a talmid in choosing a career? I wish he could. But the odds are that without having had a vast amount of exposure, which is unlikely because he was probably in the beis hamedrash learning, he cannot.
My experience is that the well recognized Gedolim do not tread into unknown waters. I have engaged with many of them. I have also experienced quite a few rabbonim that feel free to advise on anything, and make tragic mistakes when they leave the confines of their professional (Torah) domain. Their noble intentions are not supported by their knowledge gaps.
The Steipler ZT”L was hesitant to offer specific advice on many subjects. He consulted with experts. Sometimes, he would make a suggestion such as, “Ask your doctor about such-and-such.” Not direct advice because, as he stated to me personally, “I am not a doctor, and not qualified to give such advice”. Reb Moshe ZT”L was also one who consulted with experts regularly. Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ZT”L spent many hundreds of hours studying about electricity, with electrical engineers and electricians before feeling himself knowledgeable enough to pasken shailos in hilchos Shabbos and electricity.
The past many years of a mistaken and dangerous approach to molestation by prominent rabbonim seems to be on the mend. They simply did not know or understand. So we had some great rabbonim making statements that are known to the professional world to be completely inaccurate, as there was a knowledge gap. This appears to be mending today. But gaps still exist. Thanks to the intervention of askanim who engaged with the Moetzes and provided badly needed information.
As for the שופט אשר יהיה בימים ההם, there is a simple comment that should put this in perspective. Yisro directed Moshe to create a hierarchical system of dayanim, with only the toughest being posed directly to Moshe. But the pattern was that anyone with a shailoh approached his שרי עשרות and asked. If this was too difficult, it was passed upward, until it reached Moshe. Recognize that all the way up the line, there were dayanim who had no problem saying that they lacked the ability to pasken. Their true power lay in their ability to say, “I don’t know.” The שופט that the posuk refers to here is not the lower level dayan, but the recognized leader of Klal Yisroel. It does not mean the average Rov, however scholarly he might be, unless he has that broad range of experience and world knowledge.
But the opening question can mean many different things, and until these are clarified, no one can answer anything.
I think you know good and well what he’s referring to.
As to the rest, it simply doesn’t address the hashkafa issue at hand, which is very firmly in the realm of daas Torah to decide.
Many of your own posts have crossed the line of what is questionable to be discussed in a public venue, and you (and others) need to own up to the fact that it’s not something to take lightly and decide on your own.
Most of the dirty laundry aired out in the world is put out by people who do not belive in Daas Torah and those people might have agendas far and beyond just airing out dirty laundry for one incident
ZD:
That is a bold statement. Can you support that? How do you know who does or does not believe in Daas Torah? And, for that matter, what is your working definition of Daas Torah?
I am not the one to ask about Daas torah as my views on the topic are well known
I didn’t understand ZD’s statement as much of a chiddush, TLIK.
I think he’s saying that even if we disagree as to whether we should publicly discuss some of the issues affecting our community, and perhaps gedolim would say to keep it private so as not to reflect badly on us, there are people blogging l’hachis who couldn’t care less what R’ Aharon Leib or anyone else think about it.
ZD, if I understood you correctly, it’s true according to any definition of daas Torah.
Gedolim are Torah giants, not PR people. And when information from people with agendas is leaked, the damage control can be hard to contain
Is airing out dirty laundry better or worse than sweeping it under the rug?
They are both bad – one shouldn’t do either.
That’s kind of like asking: Is it worse to speak loshon hora or to not speak “loshon hora l’toeles”? Actually, I think it’s the same question, and has the same answer.
clarification on above post: “loshon hora l’toeles” refers to a situation in which ALL the conditions of L’H l’toeles are met.
“As to the rest, it simply doesn’t address the hashkafa issue at hand, which is very firmly in the realm of daas Torah to decide.”
Especially since it’s not even a matter of hashkafa, but rather a matter of halacha, and even TLIK acknowledged that the Gedolim are qualified to posken on hilchos loshon hora (not that they need his haskama).
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