How Was Vashti Killed?

Home Coffeeroom Yom Tov Purim How Was Vashti Killed?

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  • #608935

    raul24
    Member

    I was reading the other thread about Haman and began wondering how Vashti was executed?

    #944354

    benignuman
    Participant

    It is not even clear that she was killed, she may have just been banished.

    #944355

    droish
    Member

    The Medrash says she was executed. The “banishment” idea comes from Christian biblical commentary. Where did you pickup that idea??

    #944356

    littleeema
    Participant

    Droish –

    Look at the peshat meaning of the PASSUK.

    ??? ?? ??? ???? means that she will never again come before the king. Does that mean she was banished or killed? Midrash is not peshat. Am I a Kroger for having a hard time believing she had pimples and a tail?

    #944357

    I don’t have seforim here, if I recall, megillah only states “ashem lo savo vashti”, she was baninshed. Rashi says “lefikach neherga”, therefore she was killed. Again I’m speaking off my hat, could be I’m wrong. (I am the …)

    #944358

    ZABACHUR
    Participant

    It’s a long and complicated tail.

    #944359

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Yes Zabucher its not clear the story is very spotty.

    #944360

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Achashveirosh actually regretted what he did to her. Why couldn’t he simply undo it?

    #944361

    147
    Participant

    I suggest that you take a look at some of the websites about public exceutions in Iran.

    Something tells me, that probably not much has changed in their methods since the days of Vashti’s excecution.

    #944362

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    Correct, Goq, not at all pimple.

    #944363

    Haleivi, the Undo concept was a recent invention, patented by Windows.

    #944364

    littleeema
    Participant

    Haleivi- because the Persian law was that a decree could not be rescinded – hence the problem when esther begs achashverosh to rescind the decree against the Jews…..

    #944366

    kgh5771
    Participant

    Because decrees, once issued, could not be undone.

    Remember, after Haman was hanged, Esther asks Achashveirosh to call back the decree. He doesn’t do it. He gives Esther the ring and says that anything that is sealed with the King’s signet ring cannot be recalled (meaning the original decree cannot be recalled – not necessarily the new one). So instead of recalling the decree, he tells her to write as she wishes to the Jews. Esther tells them to defend themselves.

    #944367

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I wouldn’t quite call that a decree. It’s banishment. What it says is that what the king sent out can’t be rescinded.

    #944368

    Mammele
    Participant

    I find it hard to believe that in a country with such rigid laws (i.e. a king’s decree is final even if he later realizes he made a mistake) that such a powerful, harsh king would think twice before executing someone.

    #944369

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    There are ba’alei Tosafos who understand pashut pshat to be she was not executed after all. I cannot post a link from her but search the daat website on the pasuk and you’ll find it.

    #944370

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Because decrees, once issued, could not be undone.

    True enough.

    Even if it could be undone from a legal point of view, it may not have been politically expedient to do so. This was a decision made amongst some very important ministers in the country. To go back on it would have made him look very weak and foolish — and this was in a time when weak and/or foolish kings very often found themselves dead at the hands of others who would like to rule instead.

    The Wolf

    #944372

    Wolfish: I disagree with your point because Achashverush actually executed the advisors who recommended he execute Vashti. So, clearly, he publicly made very clear he regretted his decision very much.

    The fact that he executed those advisors also indicates Vashti was executed. How she was executed I don’t know, but perhaps Rashi or the same Medrashim that tell us she was killed also tell us how.

    #944373

    WIY
    Member

    I think she was hung. I think that was what they did to anyone who went against the king like bigsan and seresh.

    #944374

    kgh5771
    Participant

    Wolf –

    “and this was in a time when weak and/or foolish kings very often found themselves dead at the hands of others who would like to rule instead.”

    Just to prove your point, Herodetus in his history notes that Xerxes, aka Achashveirosh, was killed by his guards in a coup.

    HaLeiVi –

    I believe it was a decree, or more accurately, law. Achashveirosh sought council “k’dat ma la’asot im Vashti”. He wanted to know what he could do legally.

    Dovid Hamelech –

    The text mentions nothing about Achashveirosh killing his advisors.

    And before you start talking Midrash, remember, Chaza”l wanted Megillat Esther written in this form. Midrash could have easily been included (and if you are so inclined, you can look at the version of the Book of Esther in the Septuagint, where the author lifted sections of the Midrash Rabbah in order to make the book seem more “religious”).

    The text leaves it ambiguous as to whether Achashveirosh killed or banished Vashti. Regardless, the law was that she could not serve as queen and someone else had to be chosen.

    Throughout Megillat Esther, the text is poking fun at the concept of “law” in Ancient Persia. For example, drinkng was according to the ‘law’, but what was the law? “Ein o’nes” – no one is forced, i.e., there is no law.

    #944375

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Very funny DY!

    #944376

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    kgh, you are comparing apples to velcros. It says that what the king sent oout cannot be rescinded. A royal decree is where the Achashdarpnim run and announce the new law. A punishment is not a law, it might be a ruling. There is absolutely no reason to say that he didn’t reserve the right to take back someone that he kicked out. After all, he killed someone that he appointed to high office.

    #944377

    The Medrash in Esther Rabba 4:9 and 4:12 says that Vashi as beheaded and her head was placed on a platter.

    She must have been pretty young when she was killed. She married Achasheverus as a child and after she was executed Esther was married to Achashverus herslef for quite a while. Can a timeline be made out of the Megilla and Medrashim?

    #1476690

    Joseph
    Participant

    <bump>

    #1476700

    laskern
    Participant

    The Seder Hadoros under 3395 says that Vashti was reincarnated in the cow that was sold to a chasid and the cow did not want to plow on shabbos when the chasid whispered in her ear that it is shabbos today. This was a punishment for having Jewish girls work on shabbos.
    Achashverus converted to Judaism because of this.

    #1476701

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Joseph:

    You are saying she was bumped off?

    #1477118

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    By our sanhedrin we have the same ruling.
    Once they passed the psak of meesa ,bais din is not allowed to recind even if edim come with proof. So why is this concept of not recinding in iran so surprising?

    #1477323

    laskern
    Participant

    The Yalkut Shimoni 1091:2 Achashverus regretted killing Vashti saying where is Vashti. The seven rulers said you killed her. He said, and who gave me the advice? After this, we don’t hear from them anymore.

    #1477674

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    Once they passed the psak of meesa ,bais din is not allowed to recind even if edim come with proof.

    Where do you get that from? If eidim later make the first eidim into zom’mim, we believe the second and punish the first, and if they simply contradict them, we still let the accused go.

    #1477676

    Joseph
    Participant

    “By our sanhedrin we have the same ruling.
    Once they passed the psak of meesa ,bais din is not allowed to recind even if edim come with proof.”

    Eidim Zomemim.

    #1477678

    laskern
    Participant

    What he says is true when acquitting once there is a verdict on something that the ืฆื“ื•ืงื™ื ืื™ืŸ ืžื•ื“ื™ื ื‘ื• but not on guilt. Rambam Sanhedrin 10:9

    #1477681

    laskern
    Participant

    What is the difference of eidei hackchoshe and eidei zomemim? In eidim zomemim they are destroying the credibility of the eidim whereas in eidei hackchoshe they are not destroying the eidim but their argument.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1477694

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Takes, on the contrary; the place of execution was deliberately set up far from beis din to maximize the time available to halt the execution in the event other evidence surfaced

    #1477713

    laskern
    Participant

    lesschumras you are right. Guilt they can retract but not acquitel except if tzodukim agree. see Rambam above.

    #1477704

    5 years ago WIY,

    and that’s why Haman thought it would be a great idea to hang Mordechai (and in the end Haman was hung instead) because Haman wanted it to be that Mordechai was rebelling against the king because didn’t follow the king’s decree, but Haman was the one that was trying to usurp the throne

    #1477680

    If a woman was sent to the palace of tears it was permanent. The only way out to get out alive was if she was given away as a gift.

    #1477719

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    I would definitely think less of a king if he banished his wife and then came crawling back.

    #1477718

    laskern
    Participant

    It says in Kaheles ื—ื•ืคืจ ื’ื•ืžืฅ ื‘ื• ื™ืคื•ืœ one who digs a pit for the other will fall in it. In the Torah ื›ื™ ื‘ื“ื‘ืจ ืืฉืจ ื–ื“ื• ืขืœื™ื”ื, in the pot they cooked they were cooked in it. Haman was hanged on the tree he prepared for Mordechai.

    #1479131

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Wow are we hearing from a bunch of geniuses here
    The ื’ืžืจื, ืžื’ื™ืœื” ื™ื ืขืžื•ื“ ื‘
    Three lines from the bottom
    ื‘ื ืฉื˜ืŸ ื•ืจื™ืงื“ ื‘ื™ื ื™ื”ืŸ ื”ื•ืจื’ ืืช ื•ืฉืชื™
    Satan came and danced amongst (between) them and killed Vashti
    Is that clear enough?
    Or are you ready to take on the ื’ืžืจื as well?

    #1479129

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Medrash in Esther Rabba 4:9 and 4:12 says that Vashi as beheaded and her head was placed on a platter.

    Where was the platter placed?

    #1479161

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    The ื’ืžืจื, ืžื’ื™ืœื” ื™ื ืขืžื•ื“ ื‘
    Three lines from the bottom
    ื‘ื ืฉื˜ืŸ ื•ืจื™ืงื“ ื‘ื™ื ื™ื”ืŸ ื”ื•ืจื’ ืืช ื•ืฉืชื™
    Satan came and danced amongst (between) them and killed Vashti
    Is that clear enough?

    What are you trying to clarify, that Vashti was killed? Midrashim were already quoted.

    How Vashti was killed? The gemara doesn’t say that.

    #1479176

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Dy
    Unfortunately there are those on this thread that take Medrashim as ”a suggested possibility ” to be accepted or selected based on their own personal feelings on the topic.
    Read through the thread
    Additionally there is truly a concept called medrashos chalukos .
    So I was just showing that In this question it’s pretty open and shut that she was killed. With no wiggle room.
    (there is an entire section of this thread discussing proving she was killed based on his not calling her back when he got sober)

    #1479203

    Wow are we hearing from a bunch of geniuses here
    The ื’ืžืจื, ืžื’ื™ืœื” ื™ื ืขืžื•ื“ ื‘
    Three lines from the bottom
    ื‘ื ืฉื˜ืŸ ื•ืจื™ืงื“ ื‘ื™ื ื™ื”ืŸ ื”ื•ืจื’ ืืช ื•ืฉืชื™
    Satan came and danced amongst (between) them and killed Vashti
    Is that clear enough?
    Or are you ready to take on the ื’ืžืจื as well?

    I don’t see this as a contradiction. It was not unusual for women banished to the palace of tears to commit suicide.

    #1479221

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gamanit: It is clear that Vashti was put to death on orders of Achashverush that she be executed.

    #1479260

    Joseph
    Participant

    She must have been pretty young when she was killed. She married Achasheverus as a child and after she was executed Esther was married to Achashverus herslef for quite a while. Can a timeline be made out of the Megilla and Medrashim?

    Vashti was in her teens when she was executed.

    #1479284

    benignuman
    Participant

    The Ibn Ezra says that Vashti was only banished.

    I have a vague recollection of seeing a machlokes aggados about this but I’m not confident.

    Vashti was the daughter of Belshazzar. What makes you say that she was in her teens (and why does it matter)?

    #1479491

    Joseph
    Participant

    Benignuman: I once did a back-of the-napkin calculation of the timeline from among the Megila, various Midrashim, Chazals, etc. from the time Vashti was a little child when Belshazzar was killed and Achashverush married her until she met her untimely demise.

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