I'm gonna marry a feminist yekke girl

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  • #606546

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So I only have to wait one hour.

    ho ho ho

  • #909739

    Chulent
    Member

    Yekke’s wait three hours; it is the Dutch that wait only one hour.

    But either way why marry a feminist? Marry a machist.

  • #909740

    WIY
    Member

    Popa

    Not maskim. If she is a feminist instead of taking on your minhag she will keep hers and therefore she will continue to hold one hour. You however will keep your minhag.

  • #909741

    Toi
    Member

    We wait three. go marry a yodeler.

  • #909742

    coffee addict
    Participant

    like attracts like

  • #909743

    rebdoniel
    Member

    PBA,

    This is an offensive and pointless posting, let alone one which shows a complete lack of knowledge on these minhagim.

    My belief is that the entire inyan of waiting between meat and dairy is highly subjective. I am unaware of where Rambam deduces a 6 hour waiting period from (he does say that because of the meat between one’s teeth with is not removed by cleaning) although this seems to be the most widely-followed practice. Hullin 105a tells us that Mar Ukva’s father would wait a day between meat and cheese, while Mar Ukva says he would wait for the next meal. The time one would wait between meals goes undefined. Germans, I assume, waited three hours between meals.

    As long as one does kinuach and hadacha, according to Tosafot, one probably wouldn’t have to wait any formally-allotted period of time. Since I typically follow many S&P minhagim, 72 minutes seems sufficient and in accordance with the texts.

  • #909744

    yekke2
    Participant

    I have a daughter… all applications in writing please; please allow 7-10 working days delivery. Terms and conditions apply.

  • #909747

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You don’t have to be so rude.

    Believe me, I toned it down majorly from how I first drafted it. And I think even the first drafting was an appropriate response. Go back and read what I was responding to.

  • #909748

    MDG
    Participant

    ” I toned it down majorly from how I first drafted it.”

    I’m glad you toned it down from very rude to just rude.

    “Go back and read what I was responding to. “

    Also please keep in mind who you are responding to. Waiting time is not MiDiorysa; Onaas Devarim is.

  • #909749

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yeah, you’re right. Mods, can you help us out here?

  • #909750

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok, take 2.

    doniel: That is not really accurate. Any shitta of less than 6 hours comes from the other opinion in the rishonim that you only have to wait until you bench and start the meal over. And then communities were machmir to wait some amount of time anyway. See rema and nosei keilim, 89:1.

  • #909751

    MDG
    Participant

    PBA,

    Very nice “take 2”.

    May we all speak with Chessed and Emet (notice that chessed always comes first when the two are mentioned). And may we all be zocheh to Teshuva in all our speaking.

  • #909752

    JustLogic
    Member

    Why don’t you?

  • #909753

    JustLogic: Because it’s hard to find a yekkish feminist girl willing to marry someone with green lips.

  • #909754

    PBA – That’s not really accurate either, Rabbeinu Yerucham says 3 hours, with the reason being that it’s bein seuda l’seuda. He says it b’sheim Rashi (though we don’t appear to have such a Rashi). Maharil says 1 hour for the same reason, adding that if one wishes to be machmir one should wait 3 hours. Again, the reason is bein seuda l’seuda. Mabit brings no less than 10 Rishonim who all hold of 3 hours as being bein seuda l’seuda. There seems to be some historical reasons for this; I have heard (though cannot confirm and have not seen any mareh mekomos, so I may very well be mistaken) that it depended on both the length of day and how many meals per day various communities ate. The Middle-Eastern kehillos apparently ate 2 meals a day, one in the late morning, one in the late afternoon and seeing as the length of day near the equator is fairly evenly split for most of the year this results in a 6 hour gap between meal 1 and meal 2. Northern European kehillos either had 2 meals per day, but with shorter daylight hours, making 3 hours between meals, or 3 meals making 1 hour. Like I say, I have never seen this inside, but have been told so by multiple sources that I believe to be reliable. Anyhow, it is quite clear from the Rishonim that 1, 3 and 6 hours are all based on bein seuda l’seuda and have very good mesoras. And yes, I am aware of the Shach…

  • #909755

    Yserbius123
    Member

    That’s my great aunts family. I never questioned the fact that many of my second cousins kept three hours, because I always just assumed our entire family was Yekkish. I realized as I got older that there was an entire branch of our family that was Litvish, yet they all held three hours, even those with Litvish fathers. My father laughed and explained that his aunt was simply too hard-headed to be pushed into waiting more than three hours, and her daughters simply followed suit.

  • #909756

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    JMH: I didn’t think that was true, as the nosei keilim on the shulchan aruch say, and the rema implies. However, it is not impossible that the taz and shach are ignoring 10 rishonim.

    Nevertheless, I’m a bit confused where you are getting your info from. I was curious enough to try to look up some of your sources. Let’s start with Rabeinu yerucham.

    Rabbeinu yerucham, in ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ? says:

    ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????’ ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ???’ ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??’ ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???

    So that is saying 6 hours…

  • #909757

    PBA – Haven’t seen it in a while, and don’t own a copy, but I distinctly recall seeing 3 in R’ Yerucham. If I remember correctly it’s in issur v’heter (39 or thereabouts). The Maharil is in Minhagim (issur v’heter, 5 d”h ochal, and 40, 4). The Mabit is (I think) in Sh’ut discussing waiting between milchig and fleishig (as oppose to visa versa). Waiting 3 hours is also mentioned in Chayei Odom Siman 127.

  • #909759

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant
  • #909760

    morahmom
    Member

    This thread definitely wins the gold medal for people who need a life.

  • #909761

    benignuman
    Participant

    Popa,

    I have seen the Rabbeinu Yerucham that Pence is referring to. It is in Issur V’Heter L’Rabbeinu Yerucham 39.

  • #909762

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok, yes, that is what it says in Rabbeinu yerucham there.

    ??? ??? ???? ????? ????’ ?? ????’ ???’ ??’ ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????, ??’ ?”? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???’ ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?’ ???? ???”?

    Which is really interesting, and presumably shach and taz and rema where not aware of it, or had a different girsa in it (easy to switch a ? and ?–either way). It is especially interesting since Rabbeinu yerucham himself says the opposite as I quoted above.

    How about the maharil? I quoted above where he implies like me (says you cannot eat in same meal, and then cites chumra to wait some hours, like taz explains and like I said).

  • #909763

    squeak
    Participant

    This thread definitely wins the gold medal for people who need a life.

    Yes popa, how awful of you to keep discussing halacha in a way that makes people interested.

  • #909764

    PBA – your link led to a google books page which didn’t allow me a look inside. No PDF. Do you have a PDF link available?

  • #909765

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    JMH:

    To update on my research:

    The ??? ??? you cite does not help you. It merely says there are different minhagim of how long to wait–which is nothing we haven’t seen in the rema, and in the rishonim. It does not suggest that it is based on a machlokes about how long the shiur of bein seuda l’seuda is, as you suggest.

    I’d like you to find the ????. I did an exhaustive bar ilan search through it, with keywords: ???, ?????, ???, ???? (separately), and found nothing.

    So to conclude:

    The chayei adom says nothing.

    The maharil implies like me (says you cannot eat in same meal, and then cites chumra to wait some hours, like taz explains and like I said).

    Rabbeinu yerucham implies like you in one place, but is ???? himself, and the one which is like you is also contradicted by its being based on an non-existent source.

    ???? is MIA.

    Taz, shach, are like me.

    Rema implies like me.

  • #909766

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The google books link just worked for me… Try again, or just search for ????”? on google books.

  • #909767

    PBA – Did both. Neither worked. I therefore will have to check both mekoros in Maharil (I noticed you only looked up 1) again. As for the Mabit, I will bl’n try and find it for you. It definitely exists as I had much fun showing it to people in my yeshiva days. However, I do not have a copy, nor any real access to one. I can ask my contacts in Gateshead Yeshiva to check for me. The Chayei Odom cites ‘dei’os bo’rishonim’ that one does not need to wait 6 hours, but ‘eizeh’ sho’ois’ (in the plural, hence more than 1). This means that there are Rishonim who do not hold of 1 or 6 hours, and not that these are the only options and 3 is a minhag taken on l’chumra of 1. It is therefore very much muchrach from the Chayei Odom not like you.

  • #909768

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ????”?. Here they both are, enjoy!

    ??? ????”? (??????) ????? ????? ?????

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    ????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???”?, ????? ???? ?????? ????, ??? ????????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????.

    [??] ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????

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    ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ????. ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ????. ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????. ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????. ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????. ??? ????? ??? ???? ????. ???? ??”? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????.

    ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???. ????? ?? ????? /??????/ ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??????.

    ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???’ ?? ???’ ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ????. ?”? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????. ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ????? ?????? ?????, ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????.

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    ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??’. ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ??????, ????? ???, ?????? ???? ???? ?????. ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??’, ??”? ???? ?????? ?? ?????. ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??’ ?????. ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????.

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    ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????. ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????, ??? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ???????? ?????. ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ?????, ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ????.

    ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ?????? ???? ?? ????, ???? ???? ????? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ????? ?? ????, ??? ??????? ???? ??????. ??”? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????. ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????. ??? ????? ???’ ????? ?? ????????, ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????.

    ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????, ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???. ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????. ???? ????? ???? ????? ?’ ???? ???? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????. ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????, ?????? ???? ????? ?????’ ???? ?’ ???? ?????. ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????

  • #909769

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Chayey odom:

    ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?’ ????, ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ???? ????, ???? ???? ??????, ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ???’ ?

    At the time the Chayey odom lived, there were well established minhagim which held various amounts of hours, as the rema notes. It is completely probable that these are the minhagim he refers to. And that the history of their development is as the taz and shach describe.

    I note that according to no current minhag can you just bench and wash again, as is min hadin according to the rishonim of not eating in the same seudah. And therefore chayey odom does not consider the possibility that somebody might be matir neder and start just benching and not waiting at all. If, as you posit, chayey odom is referring to the alternative shittos in the din of the gemara–not the minhagim of his time–then he should discuss that as well, particularly since that is how the rema paskens min hadin.

    I see nothing in this which implies that anyone holds those minhagim are m’dina d’gemara.

  • #909770

    Sam2
    Member

    Just my Hapence and PBA: The Rabbeinu Yerucham saying three hours is the most famous Ta’us Sofer in the history of T’uyos Sofer/T’uyos Had’fus. He never said 3 hours. In fact, there is a Cherem on reprinting the original page of the Rabbeinu Yerucham because of this typo and many publishers over the centuries have actually died shortly after reprinting it.

  • #909771

    shmoel
    Member

    So how do the Yekkes get away with 3 hours and the Dutch with 1 hour?

  • #909772

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Bein seuda l’seuda is obviously governed by local convention and not halakha. Halakha does not tell you when to eat your meals. Rama says that in Poland, they only waited one hour and the whole inyan is to not eat meat and dairy in the same meal. He maintains that, according to the letter of the law, one may eat a meat meal, recite Birkat Hamazon and then immediately begin a dairy meal. While the minhag developed to wait some period of time, this is just a minhag . In addition, it is noteworthy that the Rambam says one should wait about 5.5 hours, not 6 hours, which leads some to say that 5 and a half hours suffices. There is obviously much diversity on this matter, which results from the fact that there are little, if any, actual halakhic requirements.

  • #909773

    Sam2 – I find it far more likely that the 6 hours is the To’us, as the mistake of printing ‘Shalosh’ as ‘Shesh’ requires only that the printer miss out a lamed, whereas the reverse would need the addition of an entire word as well as the letter ‘lamed’ (and the invention of a rashi). Occam’s Razor says that R’ Yerucham had a rashi we do not (which is not at all uncommon amongst Rishonim) and that a printer missed out a letter. It requires fewer assumptions than positing that a printer a) put in a letter that was not there, b) put in a word that was not there and c) invented a rashi that was not there. I have also never heard of your cherem and the fact that the ‘gimmel’ girso appears in all modern defusim surely would imply that such a cherem does not exist. I would like documented instances of printers dying after printing it, please, rather than just saying it.

    PBA – Thanks for the Maharil, I guess I must have been misremembering. However, I do disagree with your interpretation of the Chayei Odom as he refers to them not simply as minhogim, but as ‘dei’os’. This means, to my mind anyway, that they are based not simply on practice but on actual shittos. When I asked my Rov he said that mistomo the Chayei Odom is referring to R’ Yerucham. I’m still trying to chase down that Mabit for you, by the way…

  • #909774

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Bein seuda l’seuda is obviously governed by local convention and not halakha. Halakha does not tell you when to eat your meals. Rama says that in Poland, they only waited one hour and the whole inyan is to not eat meat and dairy in the same meal. He maintains that, according to the letter of the law, one may eat a meat meal, recite Birkat Hamazon and then immediately begin a dairy meal. While the minhag developed to wait some period of time, this is just a minhag . In addition, it is noteworthy that the Rambam says one should wait about 5.5 hours, not 6 hours, which leads some to say that 5 and a half hours suffices. There is obviously much diversity on this matter, which results from the fact that there are little, if any, actual halakhic requirements.

    The above is not correct. You are still confusing the shittos. There is a machlokes rishonim whether bein seudah l’seudah is physical seudos or an amount of time, ie. 6 hours.

    Rema paskens like the first one, but notes a minhag to wait 1 hour anyway. He ultimately notes that the proper ashkenazic minhag is to wait 6 hours like the second shitta. (89:1 see taz, shach ad locum)

    It is not obvious at all that local custom (nor avi weiss custom) plays any part, and is also incorrect.

    If you are interested in sephardic minhagim, you are required to wait 6 hours min hadin it would appear, since the mechaber paskens like the second shitta that bein seudah l’seudah is an amount of time, ie. 6 hours.

  • #909775

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    More updates:

    I did find your source.

    Ok, so there is a shitta in the pri chodosh that the 6 hours are shaos zmanios, and in the winter they are shorter. Thus, he says in the winter if you eat meat in the morning, you can eat cheese for lunch even though it is only approximately 4 hours. See pri chodosh 89:6

    ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??????… ??”? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???

    ??? ? ???? ??????

    I would probably have read this to mean that you always use shaos zmanios regardless of what time of year it is or where you live, and that it would be a chumra in the summer in alaska to wait 12 hours.

    However, I did find your source.

    Mizmor L’dovid, authored by Rav Dovid Pardo (1718-1792, Rav of Sarajevo, Rosh Yeshiva of Chesed L’avrohom in Jerusalem, Mechutan of the Chida).

    In his peirush on shulchan aruch, http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8211&st=&pgnum=126&hilite=

    He apparently reads the Pri Chodosh differently than I did, and understands that the pri chodosh is determining that since in the winter 6 shaos zmanios is 4 hours, it would not make sense to have different amounts of time in different times of the year and places, so it is always 4 hours min hadin.

    He says this is the source of the 3 hour minhag, and that these people ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?????.

    I saw these sources in an OU bulletin, (http://www.oukosher.org/pdf/Daf20-1c.pdf)which says that Rav Schwab was very happy when he saw this, even though he still encouraged people to adopt 6 hours when they got married. The piece explains how 4 becomes 3 also.

  • #909776

    rebdoniel
    Member

    If local custom weren’t a factor, then a significant portion of Ashkenazim wouldn’t wait only 3 hours and an old Sephardic community wouldn’t wait only 72 minutes.

    Minhag is a function of context and geography as much as it is a function of text.

    And for the record, I wait 72 minutes, which is the practice of the Sephardic Jews of the Spanish and Portuguese minhag, which is the original Sephardic way.

  • #909777

    rebdoniel
    Member

    And, what does Rabbi Avi Weiss have to do with this discussion? AFAIK, he waits 6 hours like other Jews from non-Yekkishe Ashkenazic backgrounds.

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