Is the fact that 40% of the public school is Jewish any less of a tragedy

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  • #1471847

    Haimy
    Participant

    We are all saddened by the terrible shooting in Florida resulting in 17 students killed including 4 Jewish highschoolers. Why are we less saddened that 40% of the students in the school are Jewish & devoid of a life of Torah? On their way to intermarriage & assimilation.

    #1471862

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why are you suddenly sad about this now, after the shooting?

    #1471868

    Avi K
    Participant

    Maybe if day school tuition was not so high it would be less.

    #1471934

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why are you suddenly sad about this now, after the shooting?

    Does reading a sad story make you sad?

    #1471936

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Maybe if day school tuition was not so high it would be less.

    Part of what’s sad is that people put their personal comforts ahead of their children’s Jewish education and future.

    You’re right, though, and that’s where organizations such as Oorah come in.

    #1471948

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    kol zman shehaner dolek efshar l’taken- the people who were killed no longer have the opportunity to do teshuvah.

    #1471953

    Curious1000
    Participant

    I was sad now in particular because I had no idea that the problem was that bad

    #1471951

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    If the school had 100% of jewish enrollment then there would be competition with private jewish schools then there would be major competition and turion would go down.

    #1471966

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Is the fact that 40% of the public school is Jewish any less of a tragedy”

    Is this a joke? I’ll make this simple: Yes. Children being mowed down to death by another child is more of a tragedy than Jews going to public school. For the love of all things holy, take a step back and grow a sense of proportion.

    #1471971

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville: What makes you sure your weighing the two issues against each other or your sense of proportion is correct in this case?

    #1471973

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Perhaps just back uff the musar fo a few days while the families bury their children and the survivors deal with their grief and loss of friends. There is a time for everything, but you’d never know it based on some of the postings. who knows if this event might bring one or two families closer to yiddeshkeit. The Chabad Rav in Coral Springs has been on CNN and the other networks several times since the shooting and has done a real kiddush hashem in his demeanor, avoidance of politicization (nothwithstanding several efforts by newscasters to get him to criticize Trump’s position on gun control etc.) This kind of outreach will be more effective at attracting parents to yiddeshkeit and possible enrolling their kids in yeshivos than implicit criticism on a frum website of their decisions not to have done so previously.

    #1472034

    adocs
    Participant

    GH

    +1

    #1471984

    Haimy
    Participant

    This post has nothing to do with criticizing anyone, it’s about us frum yidden. Did you shudder upon learning that 40% of a public school of 3000 students are Jewish? Is this not a tragedy? It’s not about them, it’s about us & how complacent we have become about our fellow brothers. Chazal tell us gadol hamachtioh yoser min hahorgo. Spiritual death is a far greater tragedy. I personally was pained to read that so many precious Jewish children go to this school.

    #1471987

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    DaasYochid, about the sad story, yes. About other, unrelated things I was aware of previously, no.

    #1472245

    catch yourself
    Participant

    The two are totally unrelated.

    Of course, it is an unspeakable tragedy that so many of our brothers and sisters do not learn about their true mission in life.

    This does not, in any way, mitigate the horror of the shooting.

    #1472251

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    As frum yidden, parents and grandparents, we should first be incredibly proud of the many self-identiifed Jewish students and their heroic teacher who was niftar during the attack while saving the lives of many students, jews and goyim. The Jewish students who appeared on TV were articulate, passionate and unafraid to demand changes from our elected leadership. Several have spoken openly of how thier Jewish faith has been integral in getting through the past few days. The Chabad rav who has been counseling the families has been incredible. Would it be better for klal yisroel if more of these beautiful children were studying in yeshivos, of course. But when I compare these kids to some of their brothers in EY who we’ve also read about in the past fewdays behave like animals and attack other jewish women and chayalim (admittedly an unfair comparison), I’d take kids from a public school in Florida anytime.

    #1472301

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I am related and know quite a few of those unaffiliated Jews in said school.
    I also know/heard of many others who are relatives of friends of mine.
    All the people I know do not seemed interested in yiidishkeit, and see us as the crazy distant relatives.

    #1472334

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DaasYochid, about the sad story, yes. About other, unrelated things I was aware of previously, no.

    So you assumed that he already knew?

    #1472522

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, If tuition is $40K per year (as it is in some schools and parents have a few children from where is the money going to come? Giving up on a roof and food? I think that it is very instructive that at least one of the survivors has a sibling in the Chabad pre-school. She ran to there because she knew that her mother would be there picking up her sibling.

    #1472525

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    DaasYochid, it was common knowledge. If he cared, he knew.

    #1472588

    ReuBrew
    Participant

    I grew up not frum not far from where this shooting took place. Most Jewish kids I knew in High School though not “frum” where WAY more Jewishly involved than the average American Jewish teen. Most would only date other Jews, even those that didn’t mostly knew when they were adults they would not intermarry. I knew kisds that went to their Reform or Conservative Temple for Shabbat at least once a month, if not every week. Many though not shomer Shabbos or kashrus by our understandings of those terms kept Shabbos or kashrus to varying degrees. Some particularly Sefardim, where involved with frum shuls and used exclusivly frum shuls or rabbis for life cycle events.

    #1472701

    jdf007
    Participant

    Why are Jewish schools 400% more expensive than the typical catholic school? Even though some Jewish parents are so ultra-liberal that they would believe in public school above all, I’ve always wondered the difference. There are parochial schools all over(with many of them now closing), but not really Jewish schools, and the price difference seems steep.

    #1472926

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Because while some Catholic parents would prefer to send their kids to Catholic schools, they would send them to public if the pricing was prohibitive. Orthodox Jewish schools, on the other hand, are aware that they can always count on the frum world never sending their kids to public school, so they can charge whatever they want and they do.

    DY: I imagine you are used to areas where there are multiple Jewish schools and there is some pricing competition. In the out of town communities where there is just 1 MO day school in a hundred mile radius, the tuition is truly impossible for some (20K+ for kindergarten). If the parents can only find work in an area like that, they have a real problem. They are just “putting person comfort before their kids future.” It always astounds me how much of a “let them eat cake” mentality some–otherwise very empathetic–frum people have when it comes to this subject.

    #1472901

    out of town yid
    Participant

    I grew up and attended public schools, in the NOW FRUM 5 towns over 50 years ago. I would walk right by a then fledgling Yeshiva each day twice a day for 3 years. Today, that Yeshiva is bursting at the seams and has expanded greatly, since that time.

    Around 1970, I was considered a radical in the public school as I wore a yamulka all day in school. The high school in my day was 97% Jewish. One year, the homeroom containing C students, had 9 kids named COHEN….only one of whom was actually Jewish! Most non Jews were Italian. Even in those days, we had a tragedy in the making as very few of my former classmates are today FRUM. Even then, few cared about Yiddishkheit. At my conservadox temple that I grew up in….in order to be bar mitzvahed, each student of the afternoon Talmud Torah had to promise the rabbi that they would attend a Hebrew High School for a year. Most quit long before then. I was one of only about 6 who actually graduated. AND….very few of my classmates from High school were ever enrolled there at all. I know of some of my fellow public school graduates today, But I am not in touch with any.NONE that I know of ever became Frum. From the Hebrew High School, long since closed, I am also not aware of any who kept their Yiddishkheit. The public school systems of the 5 towns produced many Jewish graduates who have been lost to us today. Today the area is overrun with Yeshivas and Frum Yiddishkheit.

    In my public school days, it was considered the IN THING to send your kids to the prestigious (free) pubic school system, few went to yeshivas. Many became professionals, but today lack Yiddishkheit. In those days, parents looking to move to an area looked speciffically for the success of the local Public schools in the area. A house was bought (then affordable), in a good area with good schools….nobody even had any priority to look for a good Yeshiva. And of course….the family joined the existing local temple or shul. who cared about its affiliation? The PUBLIC SCHOOL ruled above everything else…..Yiddishkheit was relegated to some back burner.

    Thank Hashem that things have severely changed for the better. I feel that I missed out on so much growing up…. All of my children are yeshiva graduates today. I would NEVER consider sending them to any public school. Even though I am FRUM today, I feel something missing about never myself having experienced Yeshiva education. I feel incomplete, even though I have full semicha. My own sister today is very far from Yiddishkheit, and she also had the same education I did, including that Hebrew high school. Anything she had, she completely lost in college….and she went to colleges with large percentages of Jews. Today she calls me an extremist as I am FRUM. She thinks that she is a fine Jew and goes to temple at best a few times a year. She had her husband cremated. Her kids grew up with no Yiddishkheit….but alongside the menorah was a large bush….. Her husbands mother was Jewish, but hated it, and influenced my sister greatly. His father was a goy. Remember….we grew up in the same house….and my sister and I went in completely different directions. I also have a cousin who is actually a graduate of a well known Queens Yeshiva. Today he like all of his brothers is far from Yiddishkheit and is toeva also. He attended Public school after Yeshiva, need I say more.

    NO yidden at all, even from totally nonobservant homes should be in any public school anywhere, it is bad for their neshamas. Even though I, who am quite FRUM, still feel the effects of the public school system more than 50 years later. Most people look at FRANCE as hostile to Jewish education as students have a day in the middle of the week of (Wednesday) and go to school on Saturday. I feel that this is a blessing as most Jewish kids DO NOT go to the public schools because of this.

    #1472975

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There were 3000 students in that school , If 40% of them were jewish, that means 1200 of them were jewish

    If you think Oorah has the money to pay the yeshiva tuition at $10,000 a kid, thats $12,000,000. just for that one school. Even Oorah doesnt have that kind of money and actually the tution would be more as these kids (and parents ) would expect amendies that yeshiva kids dont have like Band , Football team and cheerleading.

    #1472997

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I also have a cousin who is actually a graduate of a well known Queens Yeshiva. Today he like all of his brothers is far from Yiddishkheit and is toeva also

    Going to Yeshiva is no guanrtee that wont happen. I know of several cases of frum women who married such men and were devestated when they found out

    #1473094

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Going to Yeshiva is no guanrtee that wont happen.”

    The guy referred to in your quote went to pubic school after stopping Yeshiva. That’s why it happened.

    #1473242

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a well known “Activist” who is from a very chashuv family and a decendent from the Baal Shem tov who one decided he was a woman and has decided to “Help Chassidish people in this prediciment” as his lifes goal

    The person never left the Yeshiva and still “became a woman”

    #1473281

    out of town yid
    Participant

    That was my point exactly…..one MUST stay in Yeshiva, too many who have left for some reason fall backwards also. there also must be a strong support system in place. At home, there was nothing to reinforce what was in Yeshiva. Naturally, all went out the window. Of course , there is no guarantee that any Yeshiva graduate will not go off the derech. But…all MUST be given a chance, somehow…. If needed funding is not available then THAT is also a tragedy.

    All Jews need at least one authentic introductory experience with frumkheit so that their neshama will be awakened. Often for some, just experiencing one real shabbos is the key that starts everything. In a school like this something like Jewish outreach is needed. Maybe a spark will be lit. But, unfortunately for some who have a roaring fire, the fire still gets extinguished. We must try to keep all of these fires burning brightly, no matter what. Remember that all fires need FUEL to continue burning.

    Hopefully, lost souls will find that one small spark in the near future, just enough ignition to start them om the correct path.

    #1473292

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, most of the boys that i went to yeshiva high school with in the 60s were turned off while we were still in school.
    Growing up, Catholic school tuition was so low because many of the teachers were nuns , who weren’t paid

    #1473330

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In the out of town communities where there is just 1 MO day school in a hundred mile radius, the tuition is truly impossible for some (20K+ for kindergarten).

    In town MO schools are also outrageously expensive. I don’t know that it’s an OOT issue.

    For a typical frum family, sending children to yeshivos is a priority, and everything else – where to live, work etc. works around that.

    #1473331

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If tuition is $40K per year (as it is in some schools

    It’s considerably less in others, so why is the only other option to send to public school and sacrifice the children’s Jewish future?

    #1473332

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In the more yeshivish communities, how many families with more kids and a lower income than most of these families aren’t in yeshiva? Close to zero. The bottom line is if there’s a will, there’s a way. A Jewish education should not be negotiable.

    #1473337

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If a Jewish education is so important, why are Jewish schools so exclusive?

    #1473348

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Because to some people, not having their kids negatively influenced by kids whose parents could easily send them to public school is not negotiable.

    #1473349

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The more Charedi the school, the tutition tends to be cheaper.

    There are many reasons for this, They pay the teachers lower (MO schools try to pay a more competitive salary and pay them ontime) they also have larger classes. Ive heard of some charedi girls schools with 35-40 in a class. An MO school would never allow this

    The MO schools are also competing with public schools for education , meaning they have to offer classes like AP and extra curricular activies than more charedi dont, otherwise some parents wont send their kids there

    #1473357

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The MO schools are also competing with public schools for education , meaning they have to offer classes like AP and extra curricular activies than more charedi dont, otherwise some parents wont send their kids there

    So the irony is, that the MO schools are pricing out some public school kids so that they can compete for public school kids.

    #1473363

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    So the irony is, that the MO schools are pricing out some public school kids so that they can compete for public school kids.

    Unfortunatly that is true.

    #1473405

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, even $20K per year per child is beyond the reach of middle-class families. Yeshivish families tend to have lower incomes so they qualify for various scholarship programs. The point about MO schools having to beef up their secular studies programs is also well-taken. When I went to a specialized NYC HS there were a number of frum kids in my graduating class. They were there for the superior academic program. BTW, up until 60-70 years ago it was very rare for even kids from very frum families to go to a day school. They went to public school and, in the case of the boys, an evening bet midrash program. This was before the SCOTUS decisions that banned religion so they were bombarded by Xtian cultural pressure.
    Of course, there is another solution -and I know families that have done this. Make aliya.

    #1473410

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, Yeshivish families don’t get any government scholarships to reduce their Yeshiva tuition costs.

    #1473464

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, please take a remedial reading course. I did not use the word “government”. However, there are various government programs which they do get and thus greatly reduce their living expenses.

    #1473468

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “So the irony is, that the MO schools are pricing out some public school kids so that they can compete for public school kids.”

    How could they price out a public school, short of paying people to attend?

    #1473477

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, with all those government programs, for whoever gets them — certainly far from all Yeshivish families, Yeshivish families still pay a huge portion of their income, on average, for Yeshiva tuition.

    #1473478

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    The fact that 40% is jewish is no less of a tragedy, its a different kind of tragedy though and i shuddered upon hearing the amount of jewish kids in there as much as the fact that 4 of them were killed.

    #1473484

    Joseph
    Participant

    1200 lost neshomas/spiritual lives (40% of 3000) is a far bigger holocaust than four lost physical lives.

    #1473494

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How could they price out a public school, short of paying people to attend?

    Presumably, some parents would pay some money towards a yeshiva education, the issue being presented is that it’s just too much.

    Anyhow, I should have written “non yeshivas” to include private schools, instead of writing “public schools”.

    #1473642

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The biggest strengh of Charedim is their dedication to Yiddishkeite, but it is also their biggest weakness

    They are willing to do whatever it takes to send their kids to Yeshivas , however most people unfortuantly are not willing to do so. How many charedim are willing for forgot new cars and vacations (Normal cars and Vacation, not luxieries) to send their kids to yeshiva and forgo good secualr education in order to do so.

    Unfornatly many non charedim are not wlling to make those sacrafices and in fact quite a number of kids who attend MO schools arent even religious (Kids Charedi schools would very unlikely to accept) however in order to accept these either Non-relgious or semi-religius kids the schools need to have education that is equal to the secular education at a public high school and that costs money

    If you ask many of the non-religous or semi-relgious parents would they send their kids to public school or yeshiva if an Ivy League school was at stake and going to yeshiva might not get them into Ivy league, they will send to public school

    #1473699

    ohreli1
    Participant

    Sheesh, you need to be brave to post a question on these discussion blogs….you guys go straight to ‘attack’ mode. The poster asked an excellent question! …Obviously a massacre is horrible…lives are extinguished in an instant, and with them the potential to do teshuva (in this gilgul, at least). However, if we were to truly see (like in a ‘time-lapse’ view) how many Jewish lives are being extinguished thanks to assimilation and intermarriage, we would be even more horrified. Like the Torah blueprint of the world itself, there are many layers of meaning to all events that happen in the world, and this is indeed a layer that HKBH must be pointing out to those with eyes to see….

    #1473866

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If people were really concerned about this, they wouldnt post on a blog, they would go out and try to get these students to enroll in yeshivas and try to raise the money to pay for it. Even if these parents have the money, its possible they will still refuse to pay the tutition for whatever reason

    #1473927

    jdf007
    Participant

    If this were an affluent area, and being South Florida, I don’t know exactly how many parents would pay to send their kids to a private school no matter the cost. But I could be wrong. But this has me thinking in the opposite direction. About how many of us would’ve been sent to a private school to get out of a really deplorable crime-ridden public schools if it were available, and maybe on a full scholarship. But none were available in my area.

    Some of the comments here reminds me of an article I read last year during the JCC bomb threats. One day school in a smaller city (doesn’t go up to 12th grade) was about 30-40% non-Jewish. I infer this may have been for a kindergarten. The non-Jewish parents seemed to be up in arms, and wanted to have more inter-faith conversations and wanted politicians to speak more. They didn’t change their tune even after we all found out who the perpetrator is, which makes me think it was more about socializing and smoozing with the elected elites. But just that student ratio had me surprised.
    But, again, I have to disclaim, I don’t know if that was the ratio up through all the grades, or just a kindergarten program. And secondly, our newspaper isn’t even the best, so I wouldn’t fret about 40% for the moment.

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