Issurei Hannah

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  • #1521830

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    This questio may be silly, so forgive me, and perhaps indulge me.

    Takrovos A”Z are assur behaanah. and must be destroyed.
    But if said destruction is “fun” isnt that hannah. Granted Mitzvos lav lehonos nitnu, and if someone is say a pyromaniac then maybe the satisfaction he gets from burning, might not be assur (though as I recall using a mikva that one made a neder on is assur in summer, so even that may be assur)

    But isnt hosting a dance with music inviting friends dancing to celebrate said destruction and having a grand old time, having haanah from the item?

    #1521884

    laskern
    Participant

    I think the isur hannoah is from the having an item not from not having item.

    #1521917

    laskern
    Participant

    Let me explain myself. The isur hanoah is if רוצה בקיומו at the time when he wants the item to exist not at the time when he does not want the item to exist.

    #1521919

    laskern
    Participant

    An example might be trumah that become impure which is assur behanoah and must be burned, but we can have hanoah when burning it.

    #1521924

    kollelman
    Participant

    I believe the enjoyment is from doing the mitzvah.

    #1521925

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    Hana’ah is benefit, my friend, not enjoyment. You may enjoy the spectacle to the hilt.

    #1521932

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    But if said destruction is “fun” isnt that hannah

    It’s not hana’ah from the item of issur.

    though as I recall using a mikva that one made a neder on is assur in summer

    That’s physical hana’ah from the actual item of issur.

    But isnt hosting a dance with music inviting friends dancing to celebrate said destruction and having a grand old time, having haanah from the item?

    No.

    #1521959

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Thanks all

    “Let me explain myself. The isur hanoah is if רוצה בקיומו at the time when he wants the item to exist ”

    But if he wants it to exist so he can partake in the festivities?
    When signs go up telling people to gather and bring their goods isn’t that rotze bekeyumo?
    Back in 2004 I bought a sheitel (synthetic) just to participate in the fun.

    “That’s physical hana’ah from the actual item of issur.”
    So for a pyromaniac who gets Hannaah from burning is that a problem? Or is it davka physical hanaah

    #1521983

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So for a pyromaniac who gets Hannaah from burning is that a problem? Or is it davka physical hanaah

    There’s no heter of mitzvos lav leihonos nitnu on pyromania.

    So it’s not relevant to this case.

    #1521997

    laskern
    Participant

    It is a contradiction where his actions overtake his intentions. He wants to keep it, but he is happy to burn it.

    #1522064

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “There’s no heter of mitzvos lav leihonos nitnu on pyromania. So it’s not relevant to this case.”

    I’m not sure what you mean by “no heter” so it wouldnt be allowed?
    Presumably you cant burn Issureoi haanaah for fuel/heat.
    Is the pyromanaic’s pleassure from burning things a haanaah like burning for fuel. Or is it similar to shofar where hearing the sound isnt haanaah (though is issue of kitutay miktas shiura which isnt relevant here)

    #1522083

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Presumably you cant burn Issureoi haanaah for fuel/heat.

    Right. Which nobody is doing here. The hana’ah they’re getting is the mitzvah, which is muttar because mitzvos lav leihanus nitnu. Any ensuing celebration is a celebration of the mitzvah and not hana’ah from the item.

    If someone toiveled (during the winter) in a mikva which was ne’esar b’hana’ah to him, which is muttar because mitzvos lav leihanus nitnu and there’s no physical pleasure, he can definitely make a party to celebrate that he was m’kayem the mitzvah of tevilah.

    Not sure what relevance pyromania has to your question.

    #1522103

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Right. Which nobody is doing here. The hana’ah they’re getting is the mitzvah, which is muttar because mitzvos lav leihanus nitnu.”

    got it! thanks a lot
    Though I should note there is no “they” I am not talking about any specific case.
    you ask “Not sure what relevance pyromania has to your question.”. That was precisly part of my question (see the OP)
    my question is (partly) if someone gets pleasure from burning things (ie a pyromaniac) allowed to destroy an issur hanaah by burning it?

    #1522209

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “my question is (partly) if someone gets pleasure from burning things (ie a pyromaniac) allowed to destroy an issur hanaah by burning it?”

    Now this is starting to get silly. You can’t derive benefit from the burning substance (eg. cook a barbecue on it). If the pyromaniac gets pleasure from it, he’s just enjoying the mitzvah. Just because he would also enjoy burning newpapers wouldn’t make any difference.

    I’m not sure if it’s more linguistically accurate to translate hanaah as “pleasure,” but within context I think the translation of “deriving benefit” usually gets the point across more accurately and deters these kinds of questions.

    #1522227

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    BTW NC

    “Now this is starting to get silly. ”

    I beleive I opned with that “This question may be silly, so forgive me, and perhaps indulge me.”

    I sincerly apolagize if you felt forced to answer in any way shape or form. IF this thread is beneath you and you are being forced to contribute against your will, please blink so we can send help

    #1522223

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” If the pyromaniac gets pleasure from it, he’s just enjoying the mitzvah. Just because he would also enjoy burning newpapers wouldn’t make any difference.”

    Except that with going to a mikva in the summer it WOULD make a difference See YD 221:13. (I wasnt sure when I first wrote the OP but deriving physical benefit from doing a mitzva is in fact assur with issurei haanah, AS DY explained it is only the actual mitzva that isnt condsidered a benefit) Although the fellow is enjoying the mitzvah of mikva since he is ALSO enjoying/deriving benefit from the cool water in the summer it is assur for him to use a issur haanaah. EXACTLY because he would also enjoy another cool spring.

    Thus is a fellow enjoys burning things like newspapers, than it WOULD make a difference.
    IF it is comparable. IT very well may be that the “pleasure” from burning is different than the “beneift” from a mikva. but the fact that ” he would also enjoy burning newpapers ” very much might make a difference

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