Ivris speaking cheder

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  • #619011
    yossi
    Member

    I have a friend that showed the following open letter that has been circulating and thought it made a lot of sense and just wanted to hear some opinions regarding the matter.

    ?To all those concerned, nonplused members of Klal Yisroel who are worried about the lethal plague from which we are all reeling and are trying to valiantly battle, the reason for KIDS AT HOPE:

    There is only one way to make them fluent, by having a preschool- 8th grade that speaks????? exclusively (during the morning curriculum) with the proper Bais Yaakov and Yeshiva?????? .

    #1209388
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I what you are saying but how do you expect young children who know very little Loshon Hakodesh to enter a preschool program using a language they do not understand?

    #1209389
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Teaching children fluent Hebrew would be great. I think one potential barrier is having all parents who aren’t so fluent reinforce their children’s learning by growing in their fluency as well. That is a lot to ask.

    Even so yes that would engage children and offer them a stimulating challenge.

    Thanks for sharing Yossi 🙂

    #1209390
    Joseph
    Participant

    1) Jewish children learned Torah for the last 2,000 years without learning to speak Ivrit.

    2) Ivrit is a new language that didn’t even exist barely a hundred years ago.

    3) Ivrit is not Loshon Kodesh.

    4) Jewish children have successfully learnt Torah for over 2,000 years without learning Ivrit.

    #1209391
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer writes that the reason Jews do not speak Loshon Hakodesh as a speaking language is because it is inappropriate to use a holy language while enveloped in Tumah, which is our current status. The Rambam writes that a love song in Hebrew is more repulsive to Hashem than the same song in Arabic, for instance, because the pollution of the Holy language is an additional crime. If someone wants to store pornography in his house, thats bad enough. But to store it in the Aron HaKodesh is unspeakably worse. So to cause Loshon HaKodesh to be used as a street language, complete with all the disgusting ways it is used today in Israel, is just more of a reason why we should make sure it never gets into the streets. For our Creator to look down at the world and see His holy language – or even elements of it – used in magazines such as are sold in Kiosks on Yaffo or Dizengoff Street, or spoken by the lowest of the low trying to make a sale, is not something that he or we are happy about.

    #1209392
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Radak (Sefer HaMichlol, introduction) writes that Loshon HaKodesh is all but forgotten to us, and all we have left is what is in Tanach.

    Modern Hebrew is not different than Turkish or Farsi – it is the language of a secular culture complete with all those things that we want to stay away from. The fact that some of those who speak Modern Hebrew are religious Jews is not different than the language of any country Jews are in where they speak the language of the land. The point is to stay away from the language of the land and only talk the language of the Jew.

    The Chasam Sofer notes that while Chazal used many words and phrases borrowed from the Greeks and Romans, they never coined a new word, as has been done in modern hebrew, for in their holy opinion it was preferable to use other languages rather than create even a single new word that did not have its like, its example, in the Torah, since it could not be rooted in sanctity.

    The Chasam Sofer EH 2:11 says that in ancient times Jews used to use a modified version of the non-Jewish languages for everyday (divrei chol) talk, similar to what Yiddish is. The Kuzari writes that Avrohom Avinu, therefore, spoke 2 different languages. One for holy speech – that was Loshon HaKodesh, and the other for mundane speech – that, the Kuzari says was some non-Jewish language that Avrohom Avinu took and changed around a little on his own. And thats the idea behind Yiddish. It is a non-Jewish language that we took and twisted a bit in order to make it exclusive among us.

    The Rambam writes that even in the days of Ezra they had a translator to explain the Torah readings to the people – clearly, they did not speak Loshon Hakodesh, even before the Churban.

    #1209394
    assurnet
    Participant

    “clearly, they did not speak Loshon Hakodesh, even before the Churban.”

    Wow Joseph – I was about to bring a passuk from Navi to say not like you but when I saw it I realized you may be onto something.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14263&st=&pgnum=381

    “????? ????????? ???????? ????????? ?????????? ????? ?????? ??? ???????”

    It looks like rov am during bayit rishon didn’t understand Aramaic (which I’m assuming was the lingua franca) but they did speak something called Yehudit or Jewish (the literal translation of Yiddish as well!) I have no idea what exactly this Yehudit language was but the fact they didn’t say call it lashon hakadosh perhaps fits very well into what your saying.

    #1209395
    assurnet
    Participant

    I’ve found the whole ivrit thing very difficult l’ma’aseh. On the one hand it’s really disgusting to hear the things people say on the street in modern hebrew and how our holy tongue has been perverted, especially when you hear vulgar people speaking. I read in a biography of Reb Yoilish that he once said, “I wish I knew hilchos Shabbos as well as I know that it’s assur to speak ivrit!”

    On the other hand, as a baal teshuva with absolutely no Jewish schooling growing up (not even reform) the difference in my learning ability before I went to ulpan and after was basically in different galaxies. So on an idealistic level I’d like to poo-pah ivrit but on a pragmatic level without my knowledge of ivrit my kodesh learning would be limited to very little beyond English translations.

    Also we send our kids to chinuch atzmai schools so anyway they are learning in ivrit (albeit peppered with a lot more lashon hakodesh and yiddish than ivrit on the street). We toyed with the idea sending to yiddish speaking only chedarim but it’s just too big a leap for us.

    With regards to the OP – regardless of your stance on lashon hakodesh vs ivrit, (and with all other things being equal as far as your ability to do so) the easiest solution would be to make aliyah so that your children grow up learning Torah in it’s natural language to begin with!

    #1209396
    yossi
    Member

    Joseph, the Heilege Chasam Sofer says it’s because in bavel the streets were filled with idols,thus had a din of a bais hakisei,and memeila Loshon Hakodesh became a forgotten language as it is Asur ldaber Loshon Hakodesh….

    If that is indeed our current status then it would prohibited to talk in learning in the streets as well?

    Chazon Ish said,”Fight today’s battles”.

    Call Ivris what you want,but at the end of the day it will enable kids to open up any Sefer that they desire,which is not the case for the Harmon Am,including myself.

    We never lived in such a society where all the shmutz was so accessible.Brasi yetzer haro ubrosi torah tavlin.

    #1209397
    yossi
    Member

    * hamon am

    #1209398
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Yossi +1

    #1209399
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Yossi, the problem with your theory is that there was rampant avodah zarah throughout Israel from the times of Joshua up until the first churban. Most Israelite homes in Judea and the north that have been uncovered in archeological digs had little statues of astarte and all of Shoftim involved Bnei Yisroel being punished for idol worship. Ironically, two things disappeared with Ezra’s return, idol worship and nevuah. Neither is mentioned in the Second Temple period.

    By the way, two other things changed with Ezra’s return, and noone really knows why. 1. We adopted Babylonian names for months that previously had no name I.e. Tammuz 2. We adopted an Amaraic form of block letters ( our current printed alphabet ). All writing prior to the churban was in what is called paleo-Hebrew, which looks starkly different.

    #1209400
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    What is the Hamon Am?

    #1209401
    yossi
    Member

    Look at the C”S inside that’s what he says it’s not a theory.

    #1209402
    yossi
    Member

    R’ assurnet you’re a hundred percent correct about moving to the Holy land(albeit not according to the satmar Rebba that you’ve quoted). However it’s simply not feasible for many…but second best would be..

    #1209403
    Joseph
    Participant

    LB: Hamon Am is “the general public”.

    #1209404
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    No matter how one tries, its very difficult to legislate language. It usually fails. Except for the re-introduction of hebrew to the modern state of Israel. It has almost always failed.

    for example Ireland tried to force the re-introduction of Irish over english and it has failed miserably

    #1209405
    Avi K
    Participant

    Iacisrmma, you would be surprised at how quickly small children pick up a language.

    Joseph,

    Actually the Sheeta Mekubetzet says that it the Raavad questioned if someone is yotzi talmud Torah in a gentile language (and Yiddish is not even a language but a corrupt form of German). A person who speaks in Lashon HaKodesh merits Olam HaBa, Geula and long life (Yerushalmi Shabbat 1:3). The Gra considered speaking it to be a mitzva and spoke it himself (Biur HaGra YD 245,10 and Responsa Divrei Yetziv YD 52-53) as did Rav Kook (in fact, when Rav Charlap first met him he addressed him in Yiddish and Rav Kook informed him that he was not to be addressed in “Jargon”).

    The language one speaks influences one’s mind-set. Thus the more one speaks in Lashon HaKodesh the more kedusha he internalizes. Ezra very much lamented the linguistic situation in his time. However, we see from the Mishna and Gemara in later times talmidei chachamim spoke it although more so in EY (holy land, holy language). It could be that the Chatam Sofer means that the people in Tanachic times added words from other languages to express foreign concepts as did the Tannaim (who sometimes used Greek and Latin words).

    #1209406
    yossi
    Member

    R’ Avi,

    the whole point is that many consider modern hebrew to be Loshon Hakodesh mekulkal,and thus The Gra et al.. Have no relevance.(the sifre and Rambam as well state that speaking in Loshon Hakodesh is indeed a mitzva). The above letter I believe,, is simply from a practical standpoint.The chadorim in general, are doing a very poor job in enabling our children to open up a chumash,siddur,and even a Gemara sans an artscroll,with the exception with the top 10 to 20 percent. I don’t know about anyone else,but I would definitely be interested in starting such a cheder if I had the funds!

    #1209407
    yossi
    Member

    * of the top 10-20 per.

    #1209408
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    AviK : having had the experience of attending a yeshiva that spoke Yiddish but having s mother who didn’t made things rough.

    #1209409
    yossi
    Member

    I’m aware of plenty of people who send to a chassidishe cheder who don’t speak a word of yiddish un fun destvegen Zeidy’s ken ret an eksta yiddish

    #1209410
    yossi
    Member

    *zei ken…

    #1209411
    yossi
    Member

    I.e. their children

    #1209412
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thanks Joseph 🙂

    #1209413
    yossi
    Member

    Thought would garner more conversation.

    #1209414
    yossi
    Member

    Doesn’t anyone want their 7 year old to open up a (hebrew)Sefer and give a dvar Torah at the shabbos table as is done in E”Y?

    #1209415
    Geordie613
    Participant

    I think what we are missing is the fact that a child should learn Torah in their own language. It is well known that the Chazon Ish did not put emphasis in learning davka in Yiddish. At that time, there were people who could not speak yiddish, so he said they should be taught in their mother tongue, Ivrit. I have heard the following quote, “A cheder is not an ulpan”.

    Therefore, nowadays, besides in the main chassidish centres and ‘American’ yeshivos, ivrit is the language of Torah learning in Eretz Yisroel.

    I know many people from yekkish/litvish homes, i.e. english speaking, who learned in Yiddish schools in London (Stamford Hill, where there are no non-chassidish schools anymore), and they can’t read and translate chumash into English. They can translate into yiddish parrot fashion without any understanding at all.

    Of course, we want children to open up a hebrew Sefer and give a dvar Torah at the shabbos table, but better to understand your learning in the classroom.

    #1209416
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Children nowadays are taught sherashim – lashhon kodesh at a pretty young age.

    To the issue at hand, I very much believe in a project started recently called “Aleh” or something like it – to train Rebbeim and teachers how to convey material with a “Geshmack”, how to pump a joyful zest and “bren” into Yiddishkeit. A pleasurable enjoyment enough to counteract the other “pleasures”. It has the backing of Gedolim. (and no, I have nothing to do with it)

    #1209417
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    YOSSI: Sorry but I do not expect that of my 7 year old.

    #1209418
    Avi K
    Participant

    Yossi, in that case the later books of the Tanach as well as the Mishna and Gemaar are in lashon hakodesh mekulkelet (“lashon’ is feminine). Forexmple, the books of Daniel and Esther refer to the servant who brings food as a meltzar, which is Persian. “Sanhedrin” is Greek as is “hediot” (it comes form the same word as “idiot’). In any case, lashon hakodesh mekulkelet is still a form of lashon hakodesh. Yiddish is a corrupted form of German along with corruptions of Hebrew (e.g. “goniff” from “ganav”) and Slavic languages (e.g. “bubbi” from “babushka”). Thus many referred to it as “Jargon”.

    #1209419
    yossi
    Member

    R’ Avi,

    I’m all for it.just playing devils advocate,by advancing their hisnagdus to the concept.Are you ready to start a Hebrew speaking cheder?

    #1209420
    Joseph
    Participant

    Schools using Ivrit in America, where the kids do not speak Ivrit at home unlike in Israel where the kids do speak Ivrit at home, would at most be like sending kids to a Yiddish speaking school when the kids don’t speak (or know) Yiddish at home.

    You can’t compare it to Israel, since in Israel those kids speak Ivrit at home and all day long.

    #1209421
    yossi
    Member

    R’Joseph,

    I disagree.As I had stated I know of plenty of people who send their children to a yiddish speaking cheder I.e. chassidish(not just teitching in yiddish) and they become fluent although their parents don’t speak a word.

    #1209422

    I agree!

    #1209423
    Geordie613
    Participant

    Yossi, I know of plenty of people who send their children to a yiddish speaking cheder I.e. chassidish(not just teitching in yiddish) and they can’t understand their chumash.

    #1209424
    Avi K
    Participant

    Yossi, I am an idea man not an educator.

    Geordie, that is because it is written in Hebrew.

    #1209425
    Geordie613
    Participant

    Avi K. No it’s because they chant it in a beautiful traditional tune, that the hailigge zaides and elter zaides chanted it in. But don’t translate it into english at all. The kids can read hebrew, but don’t understand it.

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