Izhbitza chassidus and open Orthodox

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  • #618979

    K-cup
    Participant

    I’ve noticed oo uses a lot of Rav zadok

    hakohen and izhbitza to defend their ideas. Are there any seforim to see if what they’re saying is true? I find it hard to believe an entire hassidus is based on rewriting halacha

  • #1209899

    Part of the problem with hassidus,which was a prime cause for opposition was it’s head in the clouds amorphous, nebulousness that could be used to support almost anything at all

    ( shabtai Tzvi,zionism , socialism,etc.)

    The Satmar Rav profoundly understood that

    every populist movement since,even irreligious ones could and often would conceivably claim a commonality and kindred spirit with the early chassidim

    and the combustion needed to somehow be reigned in

    It is with reason and sagacity

    that the Satmar Rav wrote in a letter” ???? ???? ???????

  • #1209900

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Question please: Is it just me, or is the first sentence of that last post lashon hara?

    Thank you

  • #1209901

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB- it’s a known fact that many or most or all Gedolim thought there were some problems with Chassidus at the beginning, although today it is accepted. I could be wrong, but my impression was that It is Time for Truth was not trying to attack Chassidus. The proof is that the source of his comments is the Satmar Rebbe. My impression was that he was just pointing out that there are dangers if it is misused.

    But, it is possible that I am judging the post too favorably, and the first sentence could have been phrased better. I’m not sure.

  • #1209902


    Participant

    Izhbitza is Radzin. And everything I know about Radzin (at least how it’s practiced today) has nothing to do with Open Orthodoxy.

  • #1209903

    K-cup
    Participant

    oo articles often site Rav zadok and radzin about historical development of halacha (different applications by gedolim for each for), and Rav zadoks “different take” on yeridos hadoros (we have some meilos to previous Doris) to justify their own reinterpretation of halacha and hashkafa. I’m curios if any in the coffee has gone through of radzin hassidus and can clarify what they are actually saying. I am assuming oo is off the mark

  • #1209904

    Avi K
    Participant

    K-cup,

    As a matter of fact, according to Rav Kook (Ein Ayah on masechet Shabbat 2:8) every movement that rises up has some part in Truth. However, there is also much falsehood. The task of chachamim in every generation is to show how some current movement has a Torah source but after it falls we need not refer to it any more.

    As for Chassidut, it started as a populist rebellion against the learned elites and therefore was very problematic. One leader said horrible things about talmidei chachamim and another announced during Yom Kippur that he had seen through ruach hakodesh that the gates of Heaven were closed and there was no longer a reason to fast. He then had something to eat. The Baal HaTanya did a great deal to bring it back into the fold.Later the rebbes of Gur, the Sochochover and others made it a halachic movement.

    As for reinterpretation of Halacha and hashkafa, what about the current notions about full-time life-long learning for all men, women supporting families while their husbands wave their fat fingers and rabbanim having the answers to all questions, including purely secular matters (even though it is, of course, absolutely forbidden to study secular subjects).

  • #1209905

    historical development of halacha”

    And what was Wissenschaft des judentums

    And of course, the Conservative Movement

    They’re arguably even more radical

  • #1209906

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Avi K, I feel obligated to protest your wholesale dismissal of an entire segment of K’lal Yisrael.

    Fortunately for me, you made it easy – your derisive mode of expression does more to discredit your opinion than anything I could write.

    I would just note that I believe your revision of history is a particularly artful piece of propaganda. As far as I know, Chassidism did not start as “a populist rebellion against the learned elites.” Can you prove this? Which “leader” and publicly desecrated Yom Kippur?

    Which “leader” said horrible things about Talmidei Chachamim? (What did he say? Did he insinuate that they are narcissistic, greedy, lazy and hypocritical? Are those horrible things to say?)

    My understanding is that Chassidus began with the Ba’al Shem Tov and his Talmidim, all of whom were themselves great Talmidei Chachamim, and was intended to provide an avenue for the ignorant masses to serve Hashem.

  • #1209907

    twisted
    Member

    AviK “the notion of full time learning etc” is not that entrenched in Chassidus. While the batei medrash are full, many many chassidim work. This true in EY also given the scarcity of money, and despite the failure of the litvish to understand that one can hold down a job and still be betzelem eloki.

  • #1209908

    catch yourself
    Participant

    And so the Motzi Shem Ra continues. The Litvish, of which I am a proud member, understand no less than the Chassidish or the Sefardim that “one can hold down a job and still be betzelem eloki (sic).”

    Those who are so close-minded that they can not tolerate different points of view, those who feel so trapped by their own shortcomings that their only response is to belittle others, fail to see that the vast majority of “the Litvish” (by which they refer really only to “the Yeshivish”) actually are quite successful in all professions and areas of business.

    Try tolerance, people. It feels good.

    I second that last statement!

  • #1209909

    K-cup
    Participant

    Twisted, I think Avi k was saying full time learning as part of the yeshivish world, is also a new idea,

  • #1209910

    K-cup
    Participant

    Avi k, are you saying Rav zadok and isbizca really would support the changes being suggested? Or Rav Kook would support such ideas and changes? Or are their statement s just vauge enough for many interpretations

  • #1209912

    Avi k,

    “every movement that rises up has some part in Truth. “

    Islam ,New Ageism

    How far would that go?

    (check my comment re:Homnick)

  • #1209913

    Avi K
    Participant

    Catch,

    1. I was referring to current practices. In Israel only 45% of Chareidi men work and most of those are in low-paying “religious” jobs. Some leaders have issued bans against secular education, even in Chareidi settings, which effectively ban professional training. In America the situation is different although among some Chassidim there is great opposition even to learning and using English.

    2. I do not remember the name of the person who did that but various problematic practices were recorded in the book “??? ??????” which caused the Gra to issue the cherem.

    3. I agree that tolerance is a good midda. What about tolerance for MO and RZ?

  • #1209914

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Avi K, I strongly protest your last paragraph above. It is hateful and very offensive.

    Up to that point, though you did make a good point. When Chasidus started off, there was huge opposition among Rabbonim. There was the famous cherem. I don’t know about that particular story, though it is vaguely familiar. I would recommend the Artscroll biography on the Vilna Gaon which delves into that painful period for klal yisroel.

  • #1209915

    1. I was referring to current practices. In Israel only 45% of Chareidi men work and most of those are in low-paying “religious” jobs. Some leaders have issued bans against secular education, even in Chareidi settings, which effectively ban professional training. In America the situation is different although among some Chassidim there is great opposition even to learning and using English.

    In all fairness, that is in reaction to the draft. In other countries until very recently, everyone worked. Even recently (as far as I can tell), Ruba D’Ruba get some sort of job within 10-15 years after being married.

  • #1209916

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Avi K,

    1. Litvish/Yeshivish and Chassidish people are much more tolerant than they are given credit for. There seems to be an assumption among many MO that those to the right of them are intolerant and close-minded, which is completely untrue. Many MO people have appropriated the title of “Tolerant and Open-minded” for themselves, even as they refuse to perceive the reality of how other people act.

    Davening at a certain self-described MO Shul once, I was given the honor of Pesicha on a Monday morning. The Gabbai told me, “the cord on the left opens the curtain, and the cord on the right closes it. People on the left are open-minded, and people on the right are close-minded.” I responded that this is the most close-minded thing I’ve ever heard.

    I have chavrusas, friends and close relatives who are MO, and some who are RZ. We have excellent relationships. This is because we can tolerate differences. Knowing that we all have strong convictions in the ?”? ??????, we accept happily that we see things differently.

    2. I never heard of the Sefer ??? ??????, let alone that it was the catalyst for the ???. I did not read the entire ???, but it seems to be devoted to exposing three individuals who were supporters of Shabbetai Zvi. The Sefer was published in ???, when the Ba’al Shem Tov was only 10 years old.

  • #1209917

    K-cup
    Participant

    10 to 15 years is along time, especially when compared to historically marrying and working at 17.

  • #1209918

    10 to 15 years is along time, especially when compared to historically marrying and working at 17.

    Historically you got married at 17, and half of your children died, as well as many wives. It is a different world.

  • #1209919

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Catch, I second that post.

    If people need evidence that the MO is doing more to promulgate closed-mindedness, just look at this very thread.

    Also, when people read Litvish accounts of early Chassidim, or Chassidish accounts of the Gra and his talmidim, they must take it with a grain of salt. The Yom Kippur incident described in this thread likely never actually took place.

  • #1209920

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Even in today’s Lakewood, the overwhelming majority are no longer learning full time before their tenth anniversary.

  • #1209921

    golfer
    Participant

    You know Avi-K, I could totally have a discussion with you.

    But then my eyes see this phrase–

    “…husbands wave their fat fingers…”

    and I see where you’re coming from.

    And I realize that even if I catch my breath and try having a conversation with you, you’ll find someone like me totally beneath your lofty level of discussion and not worthy of your valuable attention.

    (For the record I’ll add that my fingers are thin; my husband has nice hands though he does in fact tend to gesticulate.)

    Just feel a need to say that I had hoped to edit a lot of things from that post before approving

  • #1209922

    K-cup
    Participant

    in all honesty, assuming a person is to smug to have a reasonable conversation before even giving them a chance is pretty awful. Avi k made a nasty comment, but it was not to anyone in particular. If addressed him directly he would probably be more tame. Thats human nature in a one on one conversation, let’s assume he has basic human decency.

  • #1209923

    K-cup
    Participant

    Again, looking for ideas of where to review hassidus sources that discuss halachic process or yerdos hadoros. Let’s try to stick to names of seforim or peirushim

  • #1209924

    Avi K
    Participant

    Catch, you are correct but that is not the spirit of some in the CR. BTW, the reason why the majority in Lakewood are no longer learning full-time is that budget cuts forced the yeshivots to give exams and cutoff those who were not up to pa. This si what I meant (@Golfer) but “waving their fat fingers”. Full-time life-long learning should be only for a small elite. They should also be paid at least as much as research fellows and could be if the butterflies (as they are called in Israel) are put to work.

  • #1209925

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “BTW, the reason why the majority in Lakewood are no longer learning full-time is that budget cuts forced the yeshivots to give exams and cutoff those who were not up to pa.”

    I don’t see how that could be the reason, since BMG pays very little in the first place. The Kollel stipend is not what people are living on. I think most people who leave full-time learning do so either because they are not cut out to learn full-time forever or because once they have a certain number of kids, they can no longer afford to live on the wife’s salary.

    “Full-time life-long learning should be only for a small elite.”

    I don’t think that’s what the Gedolim and Roshei Yeshiva say. Of course, that also depends how you define “full-time life-long learning”. From one of your previous posts, my impression was that you were including those who work in Klei Kodesh. In that case, it is definitely not true.

    If you literally mean full-time life-long learning (and are not including those who work in klei kodesh), it is POSSIBLE that you may be right (I don’t know enough to have an opinion on the matter – that is a question for the Roshei Yeshiva), but in that case, in EY as well, most people don’t learn full-time forever either.

    Also, as GAW pointed out, there can be other considerations as well. He mentioned the army issue in EY, but there are other issues to take into account as well.

    One important issue is the fact that it used to be possible for someone to work for 3 hours a day and to learn for 9 hours a day (as the Rambam talks about) but today that is rarely an option (especially in the US). Nowadays, if someone works, it often (and I think usually) means that they have very little time to learn. Even if someone feels that he is not cut out for full-time learning, he still has to weigh that against the fact that leaving full-time learning may mean having barely any time to learn.

    Additionally, some people get too caught up in this idea that “not everyone is cut out to learn full-time” and assume too quickly that they are not cut out to learn full-time. There are many people who thought they were not the type to learn full-time but they persisted and discovered that they were.

    There are people who are meant to learn full-time and people who are not. I don’t know how many or who is meant to do which. (The only ones who can really know that are the people themselves and their Roshei Yeshiva). But, I do know it is very presumptuous to say that it is a problem that people are learning full-time. Boruch Hashem, it’s an amazing thing that so many people are learning, they are holding up the world for us, and we should be very thankful for them for the zchusim they are providing us with. And we should certainly not be judging them negatively and assuming they are not meant to be learning.

  • #1209926

    JM613
    Member

    Avi K:

    You said, “Full-time life-long learning should be only for a small elite.”

    *should*?

    That is your opinion.

    Do you also accept the idea that other people could have a different opinion?

  • #1209927

    JM613
    Member

    “waving their fat fingers” is a derogatory way of speaking/writing (derogatory both to the people you intend to denigrate, and to people who actually happen to have fat fingers, no matter what they do).

    If you mean to say that you have an issue with people who are pretending to be in full time learning but are not learning seriously, then say that. That is NOT what you said.

  • #1209928

    “Try tolerance, people. It feels good.”

    “I second that last statement! “

    Would anyone bother to read YWN ?For recipes?

    you would be out of a job:)

  • #1209929

    Regarding early Chassidism ,Avi K is on target

    My earlier comment, with references included was censored out

  • #1209930

    K-cup
    Participant

    It’s time for truth, maybe just repost the references with no comments that may be deemed offensive

  • #1209931

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You said, “Full-time life-long learning should be only for a small elite.”

    *should*?

    That is your opinion.

    before the advent of the modern welfare state, this is what was done. In those days if you did not work, you starved. There were no government benefits to help you

  • #1209932

    Geordie613
    Participant

    K-Cup, What do you mean “Avi k made a nasty comment, but it was not to anyone in particular”?

    No, not anyone in particular. But to an entire segment of the Jewish population! And a segment who, I would think, is the target audience of this very forum.

    And then, just to confirm his intolerance and prejudice, he uses the term “butterflies” and justifies it by saying “(as they are called in Israel)”!!

    Avi K, why are you here at all?!

    Mods, why is this allowed?

    Not familiar with the term, didn’t expect anything of that sort from him and thirdly, if you object to his presence (rightfully or not), there should be objection to many other’s as well

  • #1209933

    K-cup
    Participant

    People are more aware and sensitive of what they are saying when there is a specific person that they are directing their comments too. It easier to understand insulting a person is mean. “The kollel world” isn’t a person, it’s more of a culture, and easier to not think about people a comment might hurt.

    Granted he insulted an entire segment

  • #1209934

    yytz
    Participant

    According to the wiki page on Rav Tzadok he says something about the historical development of halacha (though it would have nothing to do with making halacha more liberal.) Maybe they’re just extrapolating from that to think that they can therefore “advance” halacha as they see fit?

    I don’t know of any chassidus that permits rewriting halacha (aside from the issue of davening times, but I think that was a matter of custom or practice rather than psak). I also think most OO writers do not use chassidus to justify their ideas — maybe it is just one or two authors?

  • #1209935

    K-cup,

    Read Toldos yaakov yoseph for one

  • #1209936

    “I don’t know of any chassidus that permits rewriting halacha”

    The Tzemach Tzedek gave credit to the Misnagdim for that

  • #1209937

    K-cup
    Participant

    I’ve read a few OO psakim and articles, and often they justify new interpretations of halacha with Rav zadok and Rav gershon henoch leiner, saying they claim we have a better, or more atune understanding of halacha for our generation than previous doros, and we should trust our instincts. I’m assuming that’s the wrong way to understand Rav zadok. Hoping g someone here knows what Rav zadok was actually saying, his writing is difficult and as I’ve tried to go through his seforim on my own.

  • #1209938

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Not familiar with the term, didn’t expect anything of that sort from him and thirdly, if you object to his presence (rightfully or not), there should be objection to many other’s as well”

    +1. I would like to say in Avi K’s defense, that I do think the comment was atypical for him. I think that he is someone who does try to avoid negative comments about other posters, people, or groups. It is possible that, as he implied, he was coming from a place of being upset about comments others have made about other groups. I am not saying that made the comment okay; I am just being “dan l’kaf zchus” regarding the source since I do think it was atypical, and is not a reflection of what he is about.

  • #1209939

    Avi K
    Participant

    JM, they can have whatever opinion they want butthey will have to jsutify it with sources. They will also have to find a terutz for the reality of guys who are going OTD and worse because it is not for them and they do not have an alternative.

    Zahavasdad, you should join the remedial reading class. According to Dictionary.com “Should” means “must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency)”.

    Geordie, I am here so that you can drink from the fountain of my wisdom. Insulting an entire segment of the Jewish population is a prerequisite for membership in the CR.

  • #1209940

    lightbrite
    Participant

    “every movement that rises up has some part in Truth. “

    Islam ,New Ageism

    How far would that go?” (It is Time for Truth)

    It is Time for Truth:

    “If they tell you there is wisdom amongst the other nations, believe them. If they tell you there is Torah among the nations, don’t believe them.” (Midrash Rabbah, Eichah 17)

  • #1209941

    K Cup,

    see my brief synopsis on OO “halacha”

    on the thread Open Orthodoxy

  • #1209942

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    yytz: Rewriting halachah doesn’t always need to be allowing things which were forbidden. It can go the opposite way as well.

    Chassidim have instituted things which have now reached into mainstream chareidi life, such as separate seating at weddings, dinners, and other events.

  • #1209943

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld (and others, but I saw his teshuvah) assered mixed seating. It is far from being exclusively a chassidishe thing.

  • #1209944

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Sridei Eish Vol 2, 8 rules that by gatherings, even which are not for matters of sanctity, men and women should sit separately so as not to mix.

    The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 149:1 (based on the Bach and Beis Shmuel) rules that “shehasimcho bimoinoi” is not said during the benching of a sheva brochos if men and women are seated in the same room because there is no simcha when the evil inclination is active. This is one of the basis that many contemporary poskim use to rule that there must be a mechitza at weddings and sheva brochos.

  • #1209945

    Geordie613
    Participant

    WARNING: THIS IS A JOKE. PLEASE DO NOT ATTACK ME

    <joke>DaMoshe, Separate seating was instituted by a man who wanted to eat a huge creamy danish or cake or have more fried potatoes etc, and didn’t want his wife to stop him.</joke>

  • #1209946

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph?

    1. I did not see where the Seridei Esh says that. In fact, the Chafetz Chaim rescinded an invitation Rav Meir Shapiro when the latter asked that the CC’s wife not sit at the same table.

    2. The Levush (Minhagim 36) defends mixed seating at weddings. Rav Moshe also permits it (Iggerot Moshe OC 1:41).

  • #1209947

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Rav Moshe’s own children had mixed seating at their weddings.

    It’s great that separate seating has become the norm, but let’s not pretend (as we are sometimes wont to do) that the way we do things now is the way things have always been done.

    I’m pretty sure there was no potato kugel at Shabbos Marah.

  • #1209948

    I’m pretty sure there was no potato kugel at Shabbos Marah.

    KOFER!

  • #1209949

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, that apocryphal story, even if it is half true, is said to take place in the CC’s home at his Shabbos table. NOT at a public gathering with masses of both genders in attendance, with music playing and the women dressed to be noticed.

    Catch, that was only at the Tendler wedding, who was much more modern than the Feinstein family, and it was his decision to mix his friends and others. Not Rav Moshe, whose sons’ weddings had separate seating. Dr. Tendler met his wife at the New York Public Library, the shidduch wasn’t made through Rav Moshe.

  • #1209950

    mw13
    Participant

    These conversations about “tolerance” always amuse me. Odds are that if we were talking about MO/DL instead of Chassidim, most people would be saying the exact opposite of what they are saying now.

    Avi K:

    the reason why the majority in Lakewood are no longer learning full-time is that budget cuts forced the yeshivots to give exams and cutoff those who were not up to pa

    Never happened. Don’t know where you’re getting your info on Lakewood from, but I would suggest that you double-check it. (Anyway, it’s not like anybody is living off just a kollel stipend of a couple of hundred bucks.)

    DaMoshe:

    yytz: Rewriting halachah doesn’t always need to be allowing things which were forbidden. It can go the opposite way as well.

    True, but that only applies to passing off a new chumra as halacha. And while that does happen, these things usually understood to be a chumra/minhag/hanhagah tova, wich is not only not problematic but actually admirable. There is no issur against an individual or a community doing anything that is not absolutely mandated by Halacha.

    K-cup:

    I’m assuming that’s the wrong way to understand Rav zadok.

    +1

    Hoping g someone here knows what Rav zadok was actually saying, his writing is difficult and as I’ve tried to go through his seforim on my own.

    Doesn’t look that way 🙁 This place is not exactly known for its depth of understanding of difficult pieces of Chassidic thought.

  • #1209951

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Joseph, in full honesty, I was born long after Rav Moshe’s children were married, so I do not claim to have been there.

    I was told by someone who said he was at both Rav Dovid and Rav Reuven’s weddings that the seating was mixed.

    In any case, I refuse to believe that Rav Moshe would allow mixed seating if he felt it was not appropriate, regardless of who “the other side” was.

  • #1209952

    K-cup
    Participant

    Not looking for anything to in depth, they have an english Rav zadok on the parsha series. I thought maybe he says something in there could help.

  • #1209953

    Geordie613
    Participant

    (I know the conversation has moved on, but just to clarify something…)

    Mods, I was not objecting to his presence, just wondering why he wanted to be here at all.

    Avi K, It is not necessary to insult anyone, nor any segment of Klal Yisroel to be an upstanding member of the CR. At least I am clear now, which way your bread is buttered.

    ? You know that’s a reference to payment, right?

  • #1209954

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Avi K can be rude to entire segments of the frum population, and make specific attacks (yes, specific now to ZD, who I think was on his side).

    Yet, strikingly the mods only jump in when people criticize Avi K… The basic assumption that this site caters to the religious right time and time again is shown to have no basis. I’m not saying whether or not it should, but it’s definitely a misconception.

    Besides that being a dramatic overstatement of fact, who defended Avi K.?

    Additionally, I use a goral to decide which faction of klal yisroel I support on any given day so any patterns you notice are coincidental.

  • #1209955

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Before this last comment, there were at least 3 moderator comments in this thread, seemingly from at least 2 moderators. Two of these comments sounded like attacks on Avi K, imho (I don’t necessarily mean that as a criticism) and the third could be called a mild defense (although I think it was fairly neutral).

    I suppose NCB was referring to the third comment. He probably felt that it was out of character for the moderators to give such a defense. I’m not giving an opinion here; I’m simply responding to the above post. I haven’t been here long enough to analyze moderator’s comments to that extent.

    I do agree though that the site doesn’t seem to cater to the religious right (although I suppose that would depend how you define your terms.), but I’m not sure that I see this thread as a proof of that.

  • #1209956

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “In any case, I refuse to believe that Rav Moshe would allow mixed seating if he felt it was not appropriate, regardless of who “the other side” was.”

    There is a difference between “not appropriate” and assur. You are right that if it assur, he would not have allowed it. But if he felt that it is appropriate to have separate seating but not assur to have mixed seating, it makes sense that he would have allowed it, at least in certain cases.

    My impression of the halacha (based on conversations I’ve had with knowledgeable people) is that it’s not assur to have mixed seating at weddings (at least not according to all accepted opinions) but there are very good reasons for not doing so. One reason is, as Joseph mentioned before, that there may be a problem with saying “simcha b’mono”.

    The other problem is that I have noticed at mixed seating weddings (or partially mixed seating) that there is very little room for the women to dance. I know this is a practical problem not a halachic one, but it is an important issue, nonetheless.

  • #1209957

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Rewriting halachah doesn’t always need to be allowing things which were forbidden. It can go the opposite way as well.”

    MW13: “True, but that only applies to passing off a new chumra as halacha. And while that does happen, these things usually understood to be a chumra/minhag/hanhagah tova, wich is not only not problematic but actually admirable. There is no issur against an individual or a community doing anything that is not absolutely mandated by Halacha.”

    Maskim.

  • #1209958

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Mod, you use a “a long-haired goat-antelope with backward curving horns, found in mountainous regions of eastern Asia.*” to moderate?

    That’s amazing! I didn’t even know goats could have backwards horns. Reminds me of how the water flushes the opposite way in Australia.

    *Google quote 🙂

  • #1209959

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    LB, goral (????) is a lottery.

  • #1209960

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Ooops… I guess I’ll just return the 16sqft of bluegrass that I just purchased at Home Depot to send to YWN.

    DY +1 Thanks!

  • #1209961

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Additionally, I use a goral to decide which faction of klal yisroel I support on any given day so any patterns you notice are coincidental.”

    lol. good answer.

  • #1209962

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph: Is there ever a time in this world when there is no evil inclination, on any level, amongst a number of Jews?

  • #1209963

    Joseph
    Participant

    LB: After Moshiach comes. The evil inclination the kitzur s”a quoted is referring to is that which is present when men and women converge together in a party atmosphere.

  • #1209964

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph: Thanks for the clarification.

    So the mechitza defends against that specific type of active evil inclination “that which is present when men and women converge together in a party atmosphere” (Joseph).

    However the mechitza does not eliminate the other types of evil inclinations that may be present for other reasons, etc. Thank you. I was wondering how a mechitza could cure every yetzar hara (because I seriously would mechitza my whole house if it worked). Clearly that was not what you meant.

    Thanks again 🙂

  • #1209965

    mendelsinger
    Member

    In response to the opening post….no, Rav Tzadok and the Izhbitzer are not valid sources for OO changes. There are controversial concepts in this line of chassidus that are misunderstood and misapplied by many people. Most is due to a combination of (1) a failure to read very carefully and connect to related pieces elsewhere in the writings, and (2) people’s desire to find what they want to find. This has attracted a lot of attention in academic works with wildly incorrect interpretations. Shaul Magid’s book “Hasidism on the Margin” is very thorough and goes through the controversial parts (e.g. can it be Hashem’s ratzon for a person to violate halacha), and connects the different pieces in the seforim very well. After arriving at his conclusions, he notes support from the simple fact that communities following in the ways of the Izhbitzer-Radzyn hoshkafo have existed for 150 years and there have not been any deviations from halacha.

    Remember that so many chassidic works were not written as seforim – they were compiled from talks, often linked to parsha. It is only from the totality of these writings that you can really understand the hoshkafic system. Even then, it often takes additional writings from disciples and successors.

  • #1209966

    K-cup
    Participant

    I’m actually reading that book now, thanks.

  • #1209967

    Avi K
    Participant

    Neville, look in the mirror when you write statements like that. if i am sometimes sharp I am only following a hallowed Jewish tradition. See on this Chavat Yair 152, generally printed after Sefer Chafetz Chaim.

  • #1209968

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I didn’t say the other side is any less sharp. I was commenting on the assertion that YWN is not supposed to be for those with your opinions.

    Can’t take the heat when people do the same to you, Avi? Let’s see if the mods jump to your aid on this post.

    Does commenting on your tone or choice of words automatically translate as jumping to his aide?

    If I am allowed to ask, would “not supposed to be for those with your opinions” mean that we should delete his posts? mock them? Make sarcasm emojis under them? Laughing at your claim is not a defense of Avi, it is just something brought on by years of reading what is posted here and who usually runs off crying/sickened.

  • #1209969

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Umm… so this is kind of late, so awkward…

    But maybe by “fat fingers,” Avi K meant figuratively.

    I just reread that post. It followed the part about kollel wives working and supporting their family and husbands. We learn from Torah that “fat” represents an abundance, such as with the fat cows and thin cows. The fat cows were years of plenty. The thin ones foretold of the famine.

    Here, perhaps Avi K meant that the husbands are living via the earnings of their wives as they study. Granted, that’s not to say that their families are raking in dough. Still, it is another interpretation.

    Initially I was offended, and it sounds any sweeter to the ears now because the word “fat” has a negative stigma (now that we’re not living in the 1600’s). Even so, maybe this wasn’t a take on one’s physique. Dunno if it makes it better, just thinking.

  • #1209970

    Avi K
    Participant

    Neville, I can take it and I can dish it out too. Be warned!

    Lightbrite, TY for the commentary. Once when asked what he meant by something he wrote Agnon told his questioner to ask a certain literary critic so I am in good company. However, as an man ofd truth I must admit that I was referring to literally waving their fingers during a discussion. This is an expression in yeshiva circles for pilpul with nothing behind it. BTW, according to the Urban Dictionary “When you interface with any kind of computer that requires manual input (whether by keyboard, or a touchscreen) there is the chance for making a mistake. Such mistakes are playfully called ‘at Finger Disease’.”

  • #1209971

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Ha, the mod took “not for those with your opinions” out of context to make it seem like I was arguing the exact opposite of what I was.

    Someone ELSE (not me) asserted on this thread that YWN caters to the religious right. I rebutted that the mod’s constant defense of Avi shows this not to be true.

    Mystery mod: Would you say that those who criticize Israel’s every action but are silent at all acts of Palestinian terror might really be unbiased, and the fact that they “happen” to only criticize one side has no implication? Give it up! We all see who’s side you’re on!

    #1 it definitely caters to the religious right. But, as I was trying to point out, that does not imply other’s aren’t given a chance to post.

    #2 I think anyone who is silent to Palestinian terror is also a pera odom. But that has no bearing on my comments. I didn’t read Avi’s posts nor yours beyond the surface. My comment was purely to the point that it is a joke to think those with opinions like Avi are supported just because they as people are supported. That is a sad error on your part. The other point was that you said more than once that he is constantly defended. Which is silly.

    #3 It is appropriate, when asking a question, to wait for a response. Not to shut it down with a 5th grade retort. I am not on a SIDE. I am moderating posts. And I rarely read the name of the author when doing so.

  • #1209972

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I agree that there is no implication in the fact that Avi is supported as a person. I DO, however, think there is an implication when he is supported EXCLUSIVELY against character attacks, but those on the other side (specifically ZD in this case) are not [not that ZD is generally on the “other side” from Avi as far as I can tell]. Hence the analogy that apparently was lost.

    For point 3: clearly you’ve been reading the names. Clearly, at this point you have a side, which is perfectly OK in general. If you would like to jump in to the thread in the conventional way, I would not have a problem. I don’t agree that it’s appropriate to use means specific to being a moderator to support one side in an argument; and, the bold text is just that.

    If you say “clearly” does that make you right? I don’t read names before the post. Whether or not you believe it is really your issue, not mine. And not only do I not have a “side” (again, whether or not you believe it is your issue, not mine) I don’t even know what topic you two are talking about. Which is one of the non-technical reasons I wouldn’t “jump in”. By the way, if you ever feel like having a give and take, instead of a dictate and deny…you know where to find me

  • #1209973

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    And, for the record, if this Mod does eventually snap with me, and I finally earn my subtitle, I would like it if there were a way to preserve the username (for someone else of course). It would be such a shame to see the pun go down in flames like that.

    The fact that you think I would block you for having a different, but non-threatening or insulting opinion is just more proof that you may not clearly understand what we do here

  • #1209974

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “It would be such a shame to see the pun go down in flames like that.”

    What is the pun? I’m quite curious now.

  • #1209975

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Neville Chamberlain/Chaim Berlin.

    One of the all time great CR names.

  • #1209976

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Thanks DY!!! Didn’t realize this was a human and the Blocked was such a statement.

  • #1209977

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY – thanks. cute.

  • #1209978

    mw13
    Participant

    I’m with NC on this one – I do think that the mods here have recently been quicker to criticize the posts of the right-wing posters than those of the left-wing ones.

    Lakewood Resident Screaming About New Shopping Mall

    Shaking hands with the opposite gender, in Israel

    Although in all fairness, this could be due to the fact that there are more right-wing posters here than left-wing posters.

    Or it could just be because they don’t like us.

    Whatever…

    I’m confused. You bring a post from 7 months ago and a post from last week to show something happening often? And in both of those examples, it was a comment about the tone of the poster, not the content, politics or religious viewpoint of the post. Which has been my point all along.

  • #1209979

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    mw13: “I’m with NC on this one – I do think that the mods here have recently been quicker to criticize the posts of the right-wing posters than those of the left-wing ones.”

    Actually, to add to his defense, I don’t think he even said that. He merely said that it doesn’t “cater to the religious right”. His point was that they will defend people on the left, and he felt that it’s inaccurate to describe the CR as “catering to the religious right” when they do defend people on the left.

    The moderators may be defining the term “catering to the religious right” differently than NCB is, since it’s not such a clearly defineable term. Both the terms “catering to” and “religious right” can have more than one interpretation.

    Personally, I would probably also disagree with whoever said that the CR “caters to the religious right”. From what I’ve seen, it seems to me that there are times when they let negative comments about either side slide by or they themselves come out in favor of or against one or the other. I don’t know if one happens more than the other, but I have seen both.

    If I am understanding you incorrectly, NCB, you can feel free to correct me.

  • #1209980

    “Although in all fairness, this could be due to the fact that there are more right-wing posters here than left-wing posters.

    Or it could just be because they don’t like us.”

    Or it might be that Left leaning posters are more savvy and articulate , and are better at gaming the system

    The yetzer Hara is usually a step ahead

    Eh.. is there any other site on the planet where

    1)the Mods write talkbacks so much?

    That’s because mods are your friends

    2)the Mods are so annoying?

    3) is this a recent development here

    Someone should start anew thread about this

    P.S. Hope you don’t have much first hand knowledge about the other sites on the planet. Many of them are dangerous

  • #1209981

    mw13
    Participant

    Mod-XX:

    I’m confused. You bring a post from 7 months ago and a post from last week to show something happening often?

    It’s certainly anecdotal evidence, but I don’t have the time patience or interest in doing a statistical study on what (or who) the mods do or do not criticize. Suffice to say that I do feel there is an appearance of bias here.

    And in both of those examples, it was a comment about the tone of the poster, not the content, politics or religious viewpoint of the post. Which has been my point all along.

    And yet, there are often comments from the left-wing posters that have a tone that is at least as disparaging, and no criticism is leveled.

    If you need any evidence of that, just re-read this thread.

    If somebody criticizes one particular group of people for any nastiness, but does not criticize a second group of people when they do the same thing, I think it’s fair to consider that an appearance of bias despite the fact that no “content, politics or religious viewpoint” has been criticized.

    What you are saying would only make sense if I was reading and modding all posts and always on a device that allowed posting. It is a fair point but due to the reality of the situation you cannot judge by that.

    Which I think has been NCB’s point all along.

    Perhaps. You may be comforted to know I will not be available for in post comments for a period of time so enjoy the quiet. But please understand that the flip side of that is sometimes (not always) just plain deletion.

  • #1209982

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I wonder which “side” I’m on in the minds of the posters who are divvying up the CR participants into teams. Do we have to choose?

  • #1209983

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Avram that has got to be the world’s best line. where is that awards thread??

    i don’t understand the teams so well, i know i once supported a statement (or a person who made a statement) and for the next three years i had certain posters making all sorts of assumptions about my life.

    all i can say is, if there are teams, i pick blue.

  • #1209984

    Joseph
    Participant

    I, too, agree that mods should not be inserting their opinions or other non-administrative comments appended to the bottom of other posters comments. They should only post personal opinions as a separate comment of their own.

    And even then I think if it is only their opinion of a general matter under discussion, and not an administrative note, it would be more appropriate for them to post it under their non-mod username rather than relying on their moderator authority to post personal opinions on general issues. But even if they post it as a separate comment under their moderator login that would be a far better alternative than sticking their opinions attached to the body of other members’ comments.

    We know, you’ve mentioned this before. Feel free to set those parameters on your own site 🙂 VhM”Y

  • #1209985

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, you said the story with the Chofetz Chaim is “apocryphal”, and wondered if it’s “half true”.

    The story was written by R’ Pam zt”l in his sefer on the Parshah. You can look it up.

    Personally, I trust that R’ Pam wouldn’t have said/written something which wasn’t true.

  • #1209986

    Joseph
    Participant

    DM: Rav Pam did not relate the story as the poster recited it here with details not mentioned by Rav Pam. Hence the half true point.

  • #1209988

    Breaking News:Rev.roger hambrick and the green pastures-baptist-church-choir perform at avi weiss shul on mlk day 2017

  • #1209989

    Would anyone wish explain the real difference, between Open orthodox , Conservatism and even Reform other than cosmetics?

  • #1209990

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    I also think Mods should not <<Edited>>

  • #1209991
  • #1209993

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “What you are saying would only make sense if I was reading and modding all posts and always on a device that allowed posting.”

    Curious about what this sentence means. I get the second part, although that was a chiddush to me. I actually have been meaning to ask about why the moderators just delete without commenting.

    It bothers me because: 1. I don’t always know if something was deliberately deleted or just didn’t go through for some technical reason. 2. If it was deliberately deleted, I would want to know why/which part, so I could rewrite it in a fashion that it wouldn’t be deleted.

    It seems at least part of the answer is that the moderators are not always able to comment for technical reasons.

    I’m not clear on the first part of the sentence though. Are you saying that some posts are just put through without being read and moderated? I was also wondering about a previous moderator comment on this thread about having wanted to edit a post. If the moderator wanted to edit the post, why didn’t he/she? Was it an accident?

    I also would like to respectfully request that moderators use their moderator names when they moderate, so we can know who we are talking to and when we are talking to the same person and when we are not.

    I’m also curious as to how many moderators there are. There are only 2 or 3 who use their moderator number, but I have no idea if there are others. LB seemed to think there were at least 5 or 6, although I don’t know what she was basing this on.

    I’m also wondering why some posts take so much longer to moderate than others. At first, I thought it had to do with how long or complicated the post was, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. One of my posts on the 7-letter game took many,many hours to moderate even though many later posts were moderated meanwhile.

  • #1209994

    YW Moderator-100
    Moderator

    Lilmod ulelamaid, to address some of your questions:

    Aside from which device a moderator is using, it is also more time consuming to edit than to simply delete or approve. Sometimes we have time to edit/comment, but sometimes we don’t.

    Everything is read before being approved.

    Sometimes posts are too long to read and are simply skipped due to lack of time. When this happens, a moderator may decide to moderate using a screen which shows more recent posts first, so an older, even short post, may temporarily get lost in the shuffle.

    Word game threads can be tricky to moderate because it is better to delete some answers which were posted after others, but we don’t always have time to view the whole thread.

    I hope this helps.

    (I am not the moderator who commented earlier.)

  • #1209995

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Moderator 100- thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my post :).

    That’s interesting about the word game thread – I was trying to figure out what was so complicated about moderating a word game 🙂 At least, it helped me to realize that I can’t take it personally when a post takes a long time to moderate!

    “Everything is read before being approved.”

    In that case, I don’t understand the previous moderator’s comment.

    btw, are you a senior moderator? Is that why you have the number 100?

  • #1209996

    YW Moderator-100
    Moderator

    I believe the other moderator meant that different moderators approve or delete (or comment on) different posts, and therefore no assumptions should be made about the bias of the moderator(s). We may just have a slightly different threshold for approval on the questionable posts.

    My number has nothing to do with seniority. It was chosen by the Editor.

  • #1209997

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I didn’t actually think you were a senior moderator because of your number. It was really because of the air of authority/manners/maturity that you seem to exude.

    How many moderators are there, or is that private? Does more than one moderator work at a time? How do you decide who moderates which posts? Does it go by time/topic/poster/luck of the draw/first come-first serve/other? And do moderators read all of the previous posts in a thread they are moderating?

    If different moderators moderate different threads, how does a moderator know if a poster is making a reference to a previous thread and how would they know how to relate to it (I think that I have experienced moderators misunderstanding comments of mine for that reason; that is why I am wondering).

    Of course, I understand if you are not allowed to answer any or all of these questions. I appreciate your taking the time to answer my other questions.

    “I believe the other moderator meant that different moderators approve or delete (or comment on) different posts, and therefore no assumptions should be made about the bias of the moderator(s). We may just have a slightly different threshold for approval on the questionable posts.”

    Thank you for explaining. Now, that makes sense the way you explained it. But I’m still not sure that it contradicts NCB’s point the way I understood it.

  • #1209998

    YW Moderator-100
    Moderator

    More than one moderator can work at a time, and we moderate posts as we see them.

    We don’t usually moderate by thread, but by post as they come in. It might be better to moderate by thread to avoid the issues you mentioned, but due to technical issues that is very difficult.

  • #1209999

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    um… MOD100 are you perhaps leaking.. whew!!!! you divulged here more than all my years posting… (quite a lot). They used to be VERY secretive going about their business…

    So now that you’re leaking… could you answer a few of my own???(quietly.. so the Russians, CIA, FBI, Dems won’t hear)

  • #1210000

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Thank you for your answers, Mod- 100.

  • #1210001

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LF, I’ve been in shidduchim for a while; I ‘m really good at getting information out of people…

  • #1210002

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Lilmod: You understood my point perfectly. I believe there was some misunderstanding from the mystery mod’s side which helped that escalate to the point it did. I did specify at one point that I wasn’t saying whether or not their bias was a good or bad thing, just that I don’t agree with it being displayed in a mod-specific way.

    The people are speaking! We even had a mod leak some of the inner workings of the CR. The 2016 anti-establishment sentiment has finally hit the CR! Almost new thread worthy I would say…

  • #1210003

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Syag, I’ve always found you to be one of the most moderate and agreeable posters in the CR. I really mean that.

    Then again, the way I define moderate (and the way anyone does) will be considered religious right by some and religious left by others as we have discussed in other threads.

    To anyone new: when we define each other (left vs. right) here, we usually all realize that we’re all talking on the frum spectrum. Nobody is suggesting that the “religious left” posters are actually in line with Conservative/Reform kind of religious left. When someone THAT religious left does occasionally blow in to offer up some information, we never scare them off with harassment and judgement, for which I’m very proud of the CR.

  • #1210004

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    NCB: “Lilmod: You understood my point perfectly.”

    Thank you.

    “I believe there was some misunderstanding from the mystery mod’s side which helped that escalate to the point it did.”

    maskim.

    “I did specify at one point that I wasn’t saying whether or not their bias was a good or bad thing, just that I don’t agree with it being displayed in a mod-specific way.”

    That was definitely my impression. I didn’t think that you were attacking the mods in any way, and I even thought that your words could be seen as a defense of them, since most people would consider it a maaleh to be unbiased.

  • #1210006

    mw13
    Participant

    A quick clarification:

    My previous posts were not meant to be bashing the mods in general. The mods are what makes this site different than any other site on the internet where the unfiltered nastiness of the internet is all too easily accessible. And I recognize that the mods are only human, and can’t make all the people happy all the time.

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