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1. shein
   Joseph

   Is there any heter for a Jew to accept a judgeship on a secular court where he will have cases consisting of two Jewish litigants where he will have to rule based upon secular law, even when it is in contravention with Jewish law?

   And even if one of the two litigants wants to go to Beis Din, but the other litigant insists on using secular court -- even when it is prohibited according to halacha to use secular court -- forcing the Jewish judge to possibly rule against the litigant who correctly wanted to go to Beis Din, since secular law favors the other litigant while halacha does not.

   Posted 8 months ago #

2. WolfishMusings
   The Wolf

   Is there any heter for a Jew to accept a judgeship on a secular court where he will have cases consisting of two Jewish litigants where he will have to rule based upon secular law, even when it is in contravention with Jewish law?

   Can't judges recuse themselves from cases?

   The Wolf

   Posted 8 months ago #

3. OneOfMany
   The Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple ^_^

   Judges can recuse themselves - they aren't "forced" to do anything.

   Posted 8 months ago #

4. shein
   Joseph

   Can't judges recuse themselves from cases?

   Not always. (And even when they can, they generally need to explain why they are doing so.)

   Posted 8 months ago #

5. shein
   Joseph

   In addition to the example provided in the OP, the judge would have to recuse himself from all cases with even one Jewish litigant. Since he cannot rule against a Jewish litigant opposed by a gentile litigant if halacha favors the Jewish litigant while secular law favors the gentile litigant. And he presumably wouldn't even know who the law favors (either secular law or Jewish law) unless he heard the case and all its details. So he would have to recuse himself from all cases involving any Jewish parties before hearing it, as it would be impractical to take the case - hear it in court as judge - and then recuse himself in middle of the case.

   What excuse is there for the cases that have a Jewish judge and a Jewish party in the case?

   And that is all in civil cases. This issue is even more pronounced for a Jewish criminal court judge who must pronounce sentence on accused Jews, with laws, rules of evidence, and punishments far different in secular law than in Jewish law. He has no right to jail or penalize a Jew with a penalty unwarranted under halacha.

   Posted 8 months ago #

6. aurora77
   loves cats

   Hello shein,

   A criminal judge, Jewish or otherwise, in the U.S. court system can impose a penalty under U.S. law on a defendant, Jewish or otherwise, who has been found guilty whether or not that particular penalty is also warranted under halacha. It is the U.S. judge's legal right, job, and duty to impose this penalty when a defendant properly under the court's jurisdiction is before the court for sentencing, after that defendant was tried according to the laws of the land for a crime recognized by the criminal code in the relevant jurisdiction.

   As an attorney here in the U.S., I can only speak for how things work here. What country do you live in, or what country are you talking about, when you say that the judge has no right to penalize a Jew with a penalty unwarranted under Halacha?

   Posted 8 months ago #

7. ready now
   Blocked

   If the Judge studied and swallowed all the goyish law, learning it and sitting to judge there is no permission for him or her to do either learning or judging nor both, nor would he or she be likely to listen to advice to absent him or herself from the case.

   A person’s solicitor could write to the court saying they want a different judge, because the one they have been allocated could not be unprejudiced to judge their case for the following reason(s) which they must state and clarify.
   For example if the judge is known to have said something publicly, done something publicly or aligned himself or herself with a certain belief, activity or opinion on some ethical issue which is contrary to a person’ s cultural (read here: religious) background that is relevant to the person’s case and the argument in that case , then the court can remove him or her from their case. That does not necessarily mean the next judge will be better. And the judges know one another.
   If this would not make any difference because the law is inflexible, just pray.

   Posted 8 months ago #

8. OneOfMany
   The Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple ^_^

   When can't a judge recuse his/herself?

   Posted 8 months ago #

9. DaasYochid
   a singular mind

   This article

   http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/139845/Backroom-Deals%3A-Is-Dov-Hikind-Trying-to-Split-the-Jewish-Vote-to-Elect-a-Non-Jewish-Judge%3F.html

   implies that the candidacy of a frum Jew for a judgeship is endorsed by R' Belsky.

   To assume that it is against halacha to hold a judgeship in a secular court would also imply that the judgeships of several ehrliche yidden were obtained without halachic consent, and I don't believe that to be the case.

   There is a well known story that when two litigants representing two sides in the Bobover dispute appeared before a frum judge, the judge recounted a meeting with a gadol after his election (some three decades prior). When he asked the gadol for advice on how to act as a judge in a secular court, the gadol told him that whenever two Yidden appear before him, he should try to get them to go to beis din. That gadol was the Bobover Rebbe, ZT"L.

   Posted 8 months ago #

10. avhaben
    Joseph

    There are a number of frum Judges of the bench, and I've never heard of them recusing themselves of cases involving Jews. (Which I don't understand.)

    Posted 8 months ago #

11. Charles Snort
    Member

    "It is emphatically the province and duty of the Judicial Department to say what the law is." - Marbury v. Madison. So there is no conflict for a frum Judge because as a judge he can decide the case however he sees fit. (Subject of course political ramifications that might follow.) On the other hand, enforcing a court order decided by a gentile judge might create a conflict for a frum Officer. At least that is how I see it.

    Posted 8 months ago #

12. ready now
    Blocked

    Because of the Secular Laws and the way they are written, the law by goyim is to be decided precisely according to the way it is written - so a Judge gives a decision with reasons for doing so, justifying his or her ruling and in order not to be dismissed from his position a Judge usually complies with this “duty”.
    The problem occurs because a many laws nowadays permit things that no sane person previously had thought would ever be permitted.This is one of the major reasons that Jewish boys and girls should not become Judges in the secular courts. To enter the legal profession for Jews it is best to do the regular work that is done in a private legal practice, and those legal practitioners can say to any client that there is a conflict of interest if that is the case and that the practitioner for that reason cannot act on their behalf.

    Posted 8 months ago #

13. iced
    Joseph

    A Jewish judge can't handle a case that violates arkoyos. Saying that since there are frum judges on the bench so they must somehow have been allowed to violate arkoyos, doesn't make any sense. How is the prohibition overcome?

    Posted 8 months ago #

14. Avi K
    Member

    Shein, on the contrary, being a Criminal Court judge is much easier because the secular authorities have the power to impose extra-halachic penalties in order to keep public order (Bet Yosef, citing the Responsum of the Rashba, Hoshen Mishpat 388).

    Posted 8 months ago #

15. shein
    Joseph

    Avi: Mesira would prohibit it.

    Posted 8 months ago #

16. Avi K
    Member

    Shein, there is no problem of mesira where someone is harming the public (Rema Choshen Mishpat 388:11).According to many poskim this is even more true in a democracy where Jews are equal citizens (according to Rabbi Herschel Shachter such countries are considered partnerships between Jews and non-Jews).If the person is called as a witness there is an aditional factor that refusing to testify is a chillul Hashem Moreover, Rav Moshe (Iggrot Moshe, vol. VIII: Orakh Hayyim part 5: Siman 9:11) draws a dsitinction between a private citizen (who may not even be required by secular law to report a crime) and a government officer.

    Posted 8 months ago #

17. yehudayona
    Member

    Some private citizens are required to report crimes or suspicions of crimes. For example, teachers are legally required to report signs of child abuse.

    Posted 8 months ago #

18. ready now
    Blocked

    In criminal cases in secular courts, if the accused is Jewish, the evidence accepted by the court may be “circumstantial” and a “guilty” verdict may be given, has v sholom . Also the evidence in some cases may not have two witnesses, or the witnesses may be unreliable and again a “guilty” verdict may be given, has v sholom. This is secular law.

    If in certain parts of the world there is a law that legislates against homosexuality, were there any witnesses and if so, were they reliable?

    Does a Jewish judge want to sentence an “ accused” to a penalty, be it incarceration or “life” (execution) where there were no witnesses or if there are, their reliability is questionable or when circumstantial evidence used ?

    Also a Judge may be called upon to judge a case involving for example a property dispute between a homosexual “couple” based on a legally authorized “union” in a particular country or jurisdiction, appearing to uphold the recognition of homosexuality!

    Does a Jewish person need any of the above mentioned cases? No.

    Posted 8 months ago #

19. Health
    Member

    A Frum Judge isn't so bad. Most Goyishe Judges are slightly Antisemitic. The worse are the Frey Jews. I've had two in previous cases. One was openly anti-Frum Yidden and the other was subtly Anti-Frum.
    We need to get out of Golus to have real Judgments based on Torah. It's very hard for a Frum Yid to get real Justice in the US.

    Posted 8 months ago #

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