The Yomin Nora'im are coming up, and kapparos is just around the corner. Chickens, fish, or money?
I personally use money. I think that the practices involved in using chickens for kapparos is....... EDITED BY SITE MODERATORS.
NOTE: Ridiculing a Minhag mentioned in Halacha will not be tolerated.
Note to moderator:
About time.
BS"D
As I will not be in Crown Heights for kappores this year, I will not be able to shlug PETA moiser Philip Schein who will certainly be there taking videos from a distorted angle to show what he wants to show. Perhaps I will see if I can use the closest avian alternative to the desteemed Mr Schein - a turkey!
BS"D
Seriously, where does the minhag of using a fish come from? Does it come from the hard times when a chicken was very hard to come by and beyond the reach of many, whereas a fish could easily be caught in a local body of water?
Or is it based on Harav Corleone as in: "Now, da yetzer hora gonna be swimming wid da fishes"?
lammed hey:
"Note to moderator:
About time."
Time for WHAT?
Note to moderator:
How did I ridicule a minhag stated in halacha?
Give Me A Break,
About time you take a break; get off this site and find yourself a real juicy goyishe site. the harm it can cause you is worth it rather than cause harm to many other people who read your silly posts.
Moderator:
Keep it up!
Here is an excerpt from an article from lubavitch on this practice. Can anyone confirm the accuracy of these referencs, and if so, how can we continue to use the chickens if these two great leaders condemn it?
"""Some Rabbis Condemn It
The practice of kapores has created a certain amount of controversy amongst rabbinical scholars. The Ramban, also known as Nachmonides who lived from 1195 to 1270 CE criticized it as a supersticious practice of the Emorites, one of the neighboring pagan peoples to Israel. Later Rabbi Joseph Karo (1488 - 1575 CE) also criticzed the practice in the Shulchan Aryuch (Code of Jewish Law). While there have been communities that do not practice the custom, many of the Rabbinical authorities did support it and encouraged its practice. Despite this controversy, kapores is practiced by many in both Sephardic and Ashkenazic communities.""
Had an amusing story last year. On my way back from Tashlich a Goyshe taxi driver stops me and ask me why were all going to the water. So (feeling stupid) I told him that once a year we throw all our sins to the fish, he answered "the river's dirty enough without all your sins"....
Well said intelligent. Really Give Me A Break, give us all a break and stop posting all your anti-frum posts on this Heimisher Forum.
Intellegent: Dont talk like that to a fellow jew. Imagine the damage you could have done to him now. If you dont like his posts, dont read them. Im not on his side,and I migth be agreeing with you, but I wouldnt publicize it like that. It's Erev Rosh Hashana. If he's Jewish, he's important enough to be on this site. We dotn have to read his posts- that's up to readers themselves.
Potted plants is another option.
IIRC, Rabbi Munk in The World of Prayer talks about kapparos. What I liked was his explanation of the source of using money, not at all as a bedieved for the squeamish. OTOH, there is something powerful about using a live animal. (Never heard of fish, don't believe he mentions it but could well be wrong.)
Give Me a Break:
I have seen many people on this forum insult other's minhagim.
Just because they are different doesn't mean they are wrong. We believe in diversity (within the confines of Halacha, as per YOUR OWN LOR (or non local OR)), which makes us stronger (seperate path for each Shevet by the Yam). Diversity includes other peoples Minhagim, even if we don't understand them. (can't understand wearing a furry hat when its 40 Cel. outside, but I won't make fun of those who do):-|
May we all be Zoche to Ahavas Chinam :-)
Normally, the moderator would just not post something she/he felt was wrong. Here he/she made a point that diversity within Halacha and opposing viewpoints within Halacha are not to be made fun of (discussed yes, but not ridiculed) on his/her site.
About Time.
P.S. I have no idea what was said, and can not answer whether it was correct to take it down.
thank you moderator!
I hope that extends to those making fun of my minhag of not eating gebrokts.
1) I use money, because the thought of picking up a chicken and twirling it around my head, makes me queasy. I also cannot stand the idea that the chicken is getting shechted specifically because of me. (I know, that sounds really dumb).
2)Why would someone make fun of anyone who does not eat gebrochts? Personally, I do eat them, but I totally respect my friends who don't, and when they come to eat by me on Pesach, there are no gebrochts on my table. I may not agree with someone's particular minhag, nor they with mine, but we can respect each other's avodas Ha-Shem.
torahis1:
Gebrochts is in a different parsha than chicken kapparos, because the latter involves the torture of innocent creatures.
"the latter involves the torture of innocent creatures. "
innocent?
that implies:
1. animals have moral bechira. do they?
2. they can be guilty as well. can they?
torture?
that implies they have consciousness (not just automated responses.) do they? could be, no one knows. can they feel pain? not unless they have consciousness (although their bodies can respond to pain.
there are a lot of questions in your statement that even your strong faith in Scientism cannot answer. you are of course free to believe what makes the most sense to you
i prefer to believe in Chazal, and the Minhagim of the Holy children of the Creator.
I use money. Although in college I wrote an article for the YU newsppaer defending the use of chickens based upon the first Ramban in Sefer Vayikra. My thesis was that if we do it, the controversy aside, we should do it in such a way to have maximum effect. The Ramban talks about what people should think when bringing a korban, and it aptly applies to Kapparot. But I use money simply because of the way the chickens are handled. I will not be party to tza'ar ba'alei chaim to fulfil a minhag which can be fulfilled in other ways.
I think the big kapporos places are now providing food and water for the chickens. I am not sure what the torture is, the swinging around does not have to be done so vigorously, right? The minhag that began as symbolic of the transfer of our sins onto the chicken for a kapporah became commercialized by those needing the parnosah, but they can do this in a safer way, with no tzaar baalei chayim. I think if I had my own little coop in the back yard, I would follow this minhag, no problem. but since we don't, we do it happily with money.
"torture?
that implies they have consciousness (not just automated responses.) do they? could be, no one knows. can they feel pain? not unless they have consciousness (although their bodies can respond to pain."
on further thought i hereby retract the above section of my above post
I think the harsh words towards Givemeabreak are uncalled for, even if we disagree. I am sure the RBSH is much more upset by harsh words than any slight to the minhag. The RBSH does not suffer from any ego issues.
To Give me a Break:
What is your view on shechting korbonos in the Baie HaMikdash?
The Queen of Persia:
Mutar then, because shepherding was kinder then.
GMAB has paskened that it was mutar to shecht karbonos in the Beis Hamikdash.
We can all rest easy now that we need not discard our Chumash and Gemorahs.
Give me a Break:
So the problem of using chickens for kapparos has nothing to do with the minhag, but rather everything to do with the beforehand tzar baalei chaim. That makes sense. However, the chickens are not so mistreated as you make it sound. First of all, they usually arrive at the designated kapparah place half dead. (the ones used in the shlacht houses all year round that you buy from the store also arrive at their destination in pretty bad shape with all sorts of machlos. That's where the doctors from the USDA come in). At any rate, from all that I've observed (up front) the chickens are fed well and given to drink. But sometimes it's too late... due to their poor health from the start. Perhaps we should go to the root of the problem and complain to the farmers and truckers who ship them under such poor conditions. But all of this is NOT to detract from the heiligkeit of the minhag.
The Queen of Persia:
"Give me a Break:
So the problem of using chickens for kapparos has nothing to do with the minhag, but rather everything to do with the beforehand tzar baalei chaim. That makes sense. However, the chickens are not so mistreated as you make it sound. First of all, they usually arrive at the designated kapparah place half dead. (the ones used in the shlacht houses all year round that you buy from the store also arrive at their destination in pretty bad shape with all sorts of machlos. That's where the doctors from the USDA come in). At any rate, from all that I've observed (up front) the chickens are fed well and given to drink. But sometimes it's too late... due to their poor health from the start. Perhaps we should go to the root of the problem and complain to the farmers and truckers who ship them under such poor conditions. But all of this is NOT to detract from the heiligkeit of the minhag. "
If they're half dead, and you're supporting the raising of these poor animals, don't you think that's terrible?
Joseph,
A Rabbi who taught in my high school told us that we are supposed to be bringing karbanot right now. I cant quote you sources (I forget them a long time ago) but there is that halachic opinion out there right now. You may not hold by it, but you shouldnt make fun of it. You can debate away, although I wont be a good partner to debate with since I dont remember what sources he pulled up.
We are all trying to obtain rachamim from HaKadosh Baruch Hu. Is it fitting, then, not to display rachamim to the sinless creatures?
GMAB, so would you say that we shouldn't eat them either? Imagine a kapparos center that was impeccably run, no trace of chillul Hashem, etc. Is that any worse than a well-run shloct hois?
I think you all need to read the peta thread to understand where give me a break places his loyalities.
Lkwd2newyork:
So where DO I place my loyalties?
To "Give me a Break"
I'm not supporting tzar baalei chaim. If enough people get together to institue a change in how the chickens are treated, the entire minhag could turn into one big kiddush Hashem. We have close to 100 chickens squalking around our yard every year and we are very careful to keep them well fed and make sure they have enough water to drink. The smell is another story, though. Other than throwing down tons of sawdust there isn't much that can be done about it. So far we have very understanding neighbors.
gmab: while i agree that a chinken should not be used, it is for differant reasons. my litvish roots make it look pagan to me, as many rishonim/achronim saw it.
but your second to last post bothers me. you say we need rachamim during aseres yemei teshuva, and using a sinless creature would not be in that spirit. well, how do you explain the echad leazazel? it was a goat that we chucked off a steep rocky cliff and was mauled to death while its body was ripped to shreds? but i forgot, you place your loyalties with your feelings, instead of your religion! that would be my feeling talking!
i no longer eat meat, or wear leather, my black hat is plastic.
i have begun to be very careful where i step (ants, you know).
i guess if , chas v' sholom, i should contract an infection it would be mutar to take antibiotics, ill have to ask a shaila of course, it would mean a horrible death of millions just to save my own.
of course, i have resolved to stop using all anti-bacterial soap
feivel:
You're being ridiculous.
P.S. You forgot to mention that you don't eat anything, because that would hurt the plants.
"feivel:
You're being ridiculous."
why do you say that? you dont think bacteria have rights? arent they living entities? are you certain they dont feel pain? are you prejudiced because they are smaller than you?
"P.S. You forgot to mention that you don't eat anything, because that would hurt the plants."
youre right! im considering intravenous, Chas' v' Shalom, as we speak.
gmab: "feivel: You're being ridiculous."
He was merely following your suggestions.
do you think this is ridiculous:
beyond vegetarians is now FRUITARIANS
they dont believe in harming vegetables
they only eat fruit because it detaches, leaving the plant intact and not suffering.
its not a joke
google it
you dont think the fools of the world are capable of taking it even farther?
without TRUE TORAH guidance, everything becomes possible, fools appear to be wise. Yidden think like goyim.
joseph: something we agree on, peta and their followers are nuts!
gmab: i have a question, do you also feel that lions shouldnt eat antelope and deer? we are on a food chain. on most we are the top of it, but in some cases we are not. its life. deal with it. eat a burger, youll live!
mariner:
Lions are members of the cat family, which cannot produce taurine, and are thus incapable of an herbivorous diet. Humans, on the other hand, have ways of obtaining essential elements for a vegetarian life.
feivel:
Yes, I've heard of fruitarians. I do believe they are insane.
GMAB: yes they are insane, but feivel made a good point as to why. You say they are because you believe they are insane, but someone else can believe that they are sane. Or you could change your mind tomorrow. Without TRUE TORAH guidance everything becomes possible (as he put it).
Just repeating what I wrote in the other Kapporus thread:
Just glancing through the Mishnah Brurah, the use of a chicken, was a minhag that was favored by the Arizal. It is a symbolic gesture done to the chicken to help us understand what is stake this time of the year (and chas v'shalom something that we may deserve). The mishnah brurah also goes on to explain that in cases where there is a question where people will push to get the mitzvah done or that due to the mass shechitah that is taking place the shochet will not properly check his knife then money could be used instead. (So it suggested that the shochet should come to the house to avoid these problems something that I doubt to many of out wives would allow...lol)
There was also a suggestion of using money so that the poor person on the receiving end should not feel inferior or bad for getting the "sinner" chicken. So in these cases the value of the chicken should be given to the poor) However, if it is known that he/she would not care, giving the chicken is better so that there is less work for the poor person.
On an interesting side note, it also mentions that after the shechitah is done the entrails should be thrown on the roof (or similar place, of which we could not do today anyway due to saftey and health concerns) as a form of compassion to Hashem's creatures/ birds who will eat the remains which is a good thing to do before the onset of Yom Kippur.
However, this doesn't make all the kapporus centers get off the hook. (We have to separate the minhag which is a good thing according to the Arizal and many Achronim and the way that we set up the practice) Once they are organized the agency/party involved must take responsibility and accountability that the chickens are treated fairly and that the neighbors are not affected by the smell, noise, and remains of the chickens. If a person feels that there is a Tzar Ba'ali Chaim issue then don't use them and advocate for a better system. In our neighborhoods the chickens are brought in shifts. Once used for Kapporus, they are taken back to the farm or place where they will shect them and the time in the crates are kept to a very minimum.
Its best to do the shechita of the chicken on site, immediately after shlugging kaparos, so the person can make a bracha and see the chicken being shechted (in his deserved place.)
Many, if not most, kapparos centers will have a shoichet on premises. This is especially the case if you are makpid to do kapporos early Erev Yom Kippur.
Give Me a Break: you still havent answered me on the azazel!
Kapporos has been documented as being practiced for over 1,000 years. And its even older than that.
mariner:
God commanded us regarding the scapegoat, NOT regarding kapparos.
Kapparos: Chickens, Fish, or Money? what do you do?!
note: no PETA discussions will be tolerated!
MONEY!! Thank goodness! Can't fathom anything else.
Money! I think chickens are a nice minhag as well. All the chicken they give to people who can't afford it. You see people picking them up in the butcher store with coupons that the community gives out.
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