Jothar, as far as i know kaporos are given as tzdokoh to ohrmeleit NOT resold. Second of all, why are you making up stories that the chickens are neveilos ( idk who your shechet is, but ours for sure doesn't make nvailos) Why do u eat anny chickens at all- they're all shechted in a rush! And legabey treifos who said they're treif or more treif than any other chickens? And please explain what you mean by tzaar baalei chaim, more than any other shechting event.
Kapparos: Chickens, Fish, or Money?(199 posts)
Gavra @ Work:
The Maharik (shoresh 161) says that avid inish cannot be facilitated through a Gentile.
Poshite Yid 613- "who said they're treif or more treif than any other chickens? And please explain what you mean by tzaar baalei chaim, more than any other shechting event."
It's all been explained in the posts.
I dont think they're more treif (ok +1% bigger chance;)) and how is this tzaar baalei chaim - sounds like something PEDA would write!
If you're gonna say that because there's so many inexperienced people and it's so ccrowded and pushy etc. well, in europe it was like that every single Thursday lekavod Shabbos people would get tons of chickens and it was pushy and all! Just because nowadays we only do heimishe stuff like that on erev yom kippur doesn't make it tzaar baalei chaim!
Poshite Yid 613- Did you read Jothar's post on this page?
Also, there's no one checking the chalaf that it's smooth every few minutes; no one checking the chickens for kashrus (soaking,salting,rinsing,etc.), and no one checking to see if there's something wrong with the chicken that would render it a treifa.
You would not buy this chicken for yourself under these conditions.
If you insist on using a chicken; use a frozen one with a good hechsher.
We use chicken...didnt read e/o comments just the title and I am mentioning our Minhag.
I don't think the point is the kashrus (or lack thereof) of the chicken. Kapparos on chickens, the way it's done now, creates a big chillul Hashem. That's it.
We use money but I still vigorously defend the use of animals. We just have to work on a way to do it right.
This year, I am placing three losing lottery tickets, ten expired EBT cards, and my revoked Green Card in a Zionist flag, circling it seven times around my head while I sing the Ku Klux Kartel version of Hashem Hi Malkynee, and then burning it all in a chicken coop. Then, I will serve the barbecued chickens to a group of PETA moisrim and tell them it is soy protein since burning anything with a Zionist flag changes its intrinsic nature.
Tzaar Baalei Chaim deoraysah. Any suffering not needed in service of man is assur.
Hi there ;)
just pass the baton already
Re: Mepal and Squeak: re: for example reporting to childrens services. Not so pashut. I Hatzola, my previous life, we were charged by a panel of social workers, child psychs, crisis intervention, Ohel heads and others that we the Hatzola grunts were mandated reporters, just as any health care worker. That meant calling the call to BCW (in NYC) in cases where abuse was suspect or evident. The Rabbonim that were our halachic managers did not say boo. This was after a tragedy in Boro Park that slipped through the cracks because of many things, among them the community reticence to air problems, and fears of mesirah. Let me tell you from experience, it is a nisayon I wish on nobody. One the one side you have the potential of pikuach nefesh, and on the other condemning a family already with a pekel to a fate in the gulag officialdom worse than death. Hashem yishmereinu.
posheteyid: re "all pushy in europe" It actually goes back further. The mishnah in Pesachim relates that the Pesach was shechted in three groups, AND THEY WOULD LOCK THE DOORS TO THE AZARA inbetween groups. Why? Somewhere along the way we lost the concept of d'racheha darchei noam. Waiting on a bus "line" here in EY gives you a faint clue why they locked the doors.
amok, as we all said, an issue such as child abuse is very complex and a specific shailoh would have to be asked (i.e. if one should be moiser).
Proof Mesira isn't the Italian omerta . As always, ask your own LOR.
This tidbit is from the Aruch Hashulchan on mesira ( CM 388. #21:):
כא מי שרוצה לברוח ולא לשלם חובוח ואחר נילה
הדבר אין לזה רץ שנתבאר שהרי לא הפסידו
והרי צדיך לשלם מה שהייב אמנם אם נרם
לו חיזק עי״ז יותר םחיכותיו חייב לשלם כה שגרם
לו יוחר ובחכ הבאר הגולה שבימיו פשט הסגהג והתקין
שםנהיגי הקהלה עומדים על המשמר שלא לעשוח שקר
ועולה להאוםות ומכריזים לגלות ולפרסם על האנשים
שלוקחים בהקפת או לוים םעות ואין רוצים לשלס וםנהג
טוב ויפה הוא ונודל קידוש שם שמים יש נזה וראוי
לחקן בן בבל םקום ואז יאמרו בנוים ישראל אשר בהם
יחפאר אלהי עולם ובן אנשים שעוסקים בזיופי טטנעות
ובשארי םיני זיופים בדברים שיש לחוש להיזק רבים
יבולין למסרו לםלנוח ולהודיע להמםשלה שאחרים
אינם חייבים בזה רק זה העויבח לבדו :
Someone cheating on their taxes (which is muttar according to some poskim, but not the ones I follow) would not be in the same din as counterfeiting money. Someone committing insurance fraud is lechora the same thing as counterfeiting, which he says here is a mitzvah to tell the goyim. however, if you're wrong you're chayav misa and ein lo chelek leolam haba.
that said, the various infractions going on by kapparos is irrelevant, since the government doesn't care either what goes on in Chinatown. It's the halachic issues which caused my Rav to say to skip it.
Rashi mentions a custom mentioned by the Geonim that "twenty two or fifteen days" before Rosh Hashono people would take baskets - one for each child - and plant legumes and the like, and before Rosh Hashono would wave them around their heads and say, "This should be instead of this [person], and it should be my exchange, and it should be my substitute." The baskets would then be thrown into the river. In this Rashi we find the concept of saving oneself from a harsh Heavenly decree by it being effected on another object.
The Maharal writes that the Gemoro implies the same. The Gemoro brings the story of Rabbi Akiva who was travelling with a donkey, and rooster and a candle. Upon being refused entry to a certain city, Rabbi Akiva had no choice but to sleep overnight in the woods outside the city. During the night a lion killed the donkey, a cat devoured the rooster, and a wind extinguished the candle. The next morning he learned that the city had been attacked by murderous thieves and he had been miraculously saved. The Maharal explains that the same terrible fate that the townspeople had suffered, was to befall Rabbi Akiva as well. However, he was substituted by his donkey (representing his physical body), his rooster (instead of his soul) and the candle (instead of his intellect). The Maharal concludes that from this Gemoro we have an "absolute proof to take a chicken for a kaporo for the soul on erev Yom Kippur."
The Remo brings this custom in Shulchon Oruch and writes that it is a custom of pious people and should not be disregarded.
In addition to the aforementioned dimension of kaporos being a "substitute" for the individual (as the Mishna Berura writes that the individual should imagine that all that is transpiring to the chicken should in fact have happened to him), there is another reason which is brought down in Eliya Rabo, that the kaporos is an atonement for the sins of the person. This being the case, it is likened to an obligatory sacrifice that each individual has to bring. (The halachic implications of these opinions will later be discussed.)
However the Kitzur Shulchon Oruch writes that the individual should not think that the chicken is literally his atonement. It should merely serve as a reminder that all of these things should have happened to him, thus arousing him to repent fully.
It is obvious from the authorities that the main part of the custom of kaporos is the slaughtering of the chicken. Especially considering the abovementioned objective of kaporos, that the individual realise that everything happening to the chicken should have happened to him.
Furthermore one of the criterion mentioned with regards to kaporos is that it should be conducted in the early morning. Both these points are evident in the words of the authorities.
In Shulchan Aruch the mechaber writes that this which they are accustomed to do kaporos on the eve of Yom Kippur to slaughter a chicken etc. Similarly in the Mogen Avrohom in the name of the Arizal and the Shalo.
The Rosh (Yoma 8:23), the Mordechai (at the beginning of his notes to Masechet Yoma), and the Tur (Orach Chaim 605) record this practice (mentioned in the aforementioned Rashi on Shabbos 81b) with approval. They, however, mention that the usual practice is to take a chicken and slaughter it. They also note that the ritual is performed on Erev Yom Kippur. The Rosh explains that the Gemara sometimes refers to a chicken as a Gever (see Yoma 20b), which also means man. Thus, a chicken is an appropriate substitute for man. He also offers a pragmatic explanation: that chickens are readily available and less expensive than larger animals such as a ram.
The Chayei Adam (144:4) and Mishna Berura (605:2) explain that the idea of Kapparos is modeled after the idea of a Korban, as explained by the Ramban (Vayikra 1:9). The Ramban writes that fundamentally the individual who sinned deserves to have his life taken as punishment for violating Hashem’s Law. However, Hashem in His mercy permits us to substitute an animal. When presenting a Korban, one should feel that his blood deserves to be spilled and that his body deserves to be burned, had it not been for Hashem’s merciful permission to offer a Korban as a substitute. Thus, offering a Korban constitutes a reenactment of Akeidas Yitzchak. Similarly, the Chayei Adam and Mishna Berura write that during the Kapparos ritual, one should contemplate that one deserves to be slaughtered just as the Kapparos chicken is slaughtered and that the chicken is a substitute. See Kaf Hachaim (605:10) for other explanations for Kapparos.
The Rashba does acknowledge that all of the Ashkenazic rabbis of his time practiced Kapparos and that the practice is recorded in the writings of Rav Hai Gaon. The Rama notes that this practice is recorded as early as the Geonic period and is the accepted practice in all Ashkenazic communities. The Rama regards the practice as a Minhag Vasikin, a venerated practice that one must not neglect. The practice recorded in the Rama is to slaughter a chicken for every family member.
The Ben Ish Chai (Parshas Vayelech 2), Kaf Hachaim (605:8), and Rav Ovadia Yosef (Teshuvot Yechaveh Daat 2:71) record that Sephardic Jews have adopted this custom despite the opposition of Rav Yosef Karo, the author of the Shulchan Aruch. An explanation for this change is that the Ari zt"l enthusiastically embraced this practice (as noted by the Magen Avraham 605:1) based on his Kabbalistic approach. The Ari zt"l has an enormous impact on Sephardic practice in a wide variety of areas.
The Mishna Berura cites the Pri Megadim who rules that Kapparos may be performed throughout the Aseres Yemai Teshuva. Indeed, Rashi records that this ritual is performed on Erev Rosh Hashanah. Accordingly, the Mishna Berura suggests that Kapparot be performed a day or two before Erev Yom Kippur to relieve the stress on the Shochtim. Rav Ovadia Yosef writes that Kapparos may be performed throughout the entire Aseres Yemai Teshuva.
I just saw a video of Rav Chaim Kanievsky performing kapparos. (Google: Rav Chaim Kanievsky at kapparos )
My Rav does kappaeros in a place with reliable organizers, and no live shechita on the spot to prevent kashrus problems.
I used money on Erev Yom Kippur, then gave tzeddakah to a Rav in my neighborhood who was collecting for poor people in the area.
Rav Kanievsky doing kapparos is also no proof. If he eats glatt kosher meat does this mean he gives us approval to eat <insert your favorite unreliable kosher meat brand here>? Perhaps he knows that the shochet is reliable, and that the chickens are fed and watered and aren't made to suffer unnecessarily.
It's okay Jothar. No one said you'll get Gehenim for using money. :-)
But as for the rest of us, allow us to do as Rav Chaim Kanievsky does in peace.
To do what the Remo in Shulchon Oruch states is a custom of pious people and should not be disregarded. And the Remo regards kaporos (with a chicken) as a Minhag Vasikin, a venerated practice that one must not neglect.
And as the Rosh, the Tur, the Maharal, Mishna Berura, Eliya Rabo, Kitzur Shulchon Oruch, Chayei Adam, Ramban, Kaf Hachaim, Pri Megadim, Arizal, Ben Ish Chai, Kaf Hachaim, and Rav Ovadia Yosef would like us to do as well.
I hope you don't mind. :-)
For those who are Machmir & want to be yotzei all shitos,
1) set aside some money,
2) with the money, buy a kosher fish,
3) go out & buy a chicken,
4) feed the fish to the chicken,
5) use the chicken for kaparos.
p.s. the fish has to be dried, ground & mixed into the chicken feed.
Joseph: How many poskim and g'dolim can you list that did not hold of the custom?
By the way, in all my years in yeshiva (Rosh Yeshiva, one of the gadolei hador, from Slabodka), chickens were never used for kaparos.
cherrybim: there nothing wrong with using money, however,
doing kaparos with a chicken is an ancient holy minhag,
just bec u didnt see it by u & yours, doesn't make it any less holy.
al pi kabalah there are many inyanim in this.
so please first educate yourself, & then form your opinions.
bein_hasdorim - can u name a few inyanim al pi kabalah why kaparos with a chicken is an ancient holy minhag?
cherrybim: The Pri Chodosh, Beis Yosef, Rashba, and perhaps Ramban (on second read, I'm not sure what his bottom line is.) In fact, some (or all?) of them seem opposed to any custom, including doing it with money. But of course my point above was to defend the heilige minhug (not that it ultimately needs my defense), rather than to engage in a halachic discourse upon it.
The Arizal brings the Kabbalistic ideas of this minhug down.
What happens if you don't have all the proper kavanos you mentioned; does it still count?
With money, the poor person can go out and buy his own chicken (with a CRC hechsher) for his starving family; that's the only kavana needed when doing kaparos with cash.
Rhetorical reply: What happens if you don't have all the proper kavanos for davening/lulav & esrog/succah/etc.; does it still count?
Azoi shteit in der seforim, un azoi tut men. You try your best.
Yes, Joseph, we should do it as R' Chaim does - without breaking any laws, or creating any type of chillul Hashem. When we can do that, I'll agree that chickens are the way to go. Unfortunately, we have a long way to go to get there.
When we can do that, I'll agree that chickens are the way to go.
Your agreement isn't necessary for the minhug.
Then why are you trying to convince people here that you're right?
Joseph, there are minhagim that certain g'dolim have abandoned because its original intention had become compromised. That is what Feif Un is advocating, as you well know.
Feif: So you shouldn't take people away from the Torah.
Just because it's a minhag doesn't mean we have to stick to it. We have minds. G-d gave us minds to think and make decisions. A minhag is just a tradition. All religions have traditions. It's just the way they got used to doing things for various historical reasons.
modernorthodox: The Reform agree with you!
Joseph: as I said before, if the way a minhag is carried out creates a chillul Hashem, it's better not to do it.
That's the case with using chickens for kapparos these days.
Feif: The day you become the Posek Hador or the Godol Hador, you'll tell us all about it.
I'm not surprised. Every sect of Judaism has some good points and useful ideas.
I would never consider doing kaparos with a chicken. It is an old outdated custom. You wouldn't see a respectful person like a Senator waving a chicken over his head! This in not the 15th century. Besides chickens are filthy and probably filled with germs.
modernorthodox: Did you ever ask your Rabbi if she agrees with you?
Reform isn't Jewish, even though some of their adherents are personally non-practicing Jews.
My rabbi doesn't tell me what to think. I'm sure he would agree with Feifun though, as I do. And cherrybim too.
Joseph, I can say the same thing to you.
It's a fact that kapparos with chickens, the way it's done now, causes a chillul Hashem. The guy from Monsey who gave an interview boasted about not paying the fines he received. Is this how to do a mitzvah? Causing non-Jews to look at us and say, "Look at those Jews, they think they're above the law, leaving chicken feces on the streets, stinking up our neighborhood, and not paying the fines they're given" is not the way to do it. The system needs to be fixed.
modernorthodox- with all due respect to you, we may have some overlapping views on some issues, but don't assume anything about my beliefs.
This thread has been interesting but has begun to mature past it's prime. I think everyone has had a chance to post his view, (many times over)
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