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Kasha of Beis Yosef

(88 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by oot for life
  • Latest reply from Little Froggie

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  1. Kozov
    Member

    A possible answer to this question, and yekke's third question: When the Beis Yosef says in one answer that every day they found the menorah full with oil, this doesn't mean it was replenished every morning, in which case one can ask, this is not shemen zayis, but shemen nes, but rather it means the oil was never depleted at all. This is like the fire in the סנה as is described in Shmos Rabba 2,5 "שורפת ואינה אוכלת" burns but does not consume. But at the same time the fire must halachicly come from the oil, and it does as proof of its igniting when there is a wick and oil, and similar to the fire which Rabbi Elazar describes happened to him miraculously in his house in Bereshis Rabba 11,2, which he lit from oil and wick, but when he came Motzaei Shabbas he found it "דלוק ולא חסר כלום". This is understandably a very great miracle, because it is reliant on the oil and at the same time doesn't consume it, similar to the paradoxical miracle of מקום הארון אינו מן המדה.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15868&st=&pgnum=114

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Perhaps Tuma Hutras Betzibur didn't apply because it was mainly the Kohanim who became Tammei from the fighting, while most of Klal Yisroel were in hiding.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    Haleivi
    The oil was all tamei. Also a zar may light the menorah.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. yekke2
    Member

    The גמרא מנחות ס"ח says that oil cannot be reused, and if the fire is extinguished it must be changed.
    (See גרי"ז זבחים י"א, see also יעב"ץ, שפ"א)

    yekke2 - Why shouldnt shemen ness be shemen zayis, and the mishna berura clearly hundels whether the mitzva is the hadlaka.

    Shemen Nes does not come from olives; the oil used in the משכן needed to come from olives!!
    The משנה ברורה talks about חנוכה; I was talking about the מנורה in the בית המקדש.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Toi
    beware the cleats

    interestingly enough, this hutra bi'tizbura business w/ regard to the menorah is suspect- if you look at the gemara in yuma, it brings ribuyim or learns out all things that have it. the menorah wasnt a korban. whats pshat in the kasha mitchila??

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    WIY, Tuma Hutra Betzibur has nothing to do with oil, it's about the Tzibur.

    Yekke, that's Lav Davka. The Torah says you need Shemen Zayis, which is a type of oil. It's a nice Chap to say that it has to come from an actual Zayis, but it's not really etched in stone. Anyhow, the problem exists only if the iol spring up from nowhere. If the oil expanded itself, the Shemen Ness issue doesn't come in to play.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    The Gemara explains that the point of the Menora is to be an Eidus that the Shechina is Shoreh among Klal Yisroel, through the fact that the Ner Maaravi stays lit until the next lighting. When the story of Chanuka happened, and they saw that it only went down an eighth, they understood that this would be a real Eidus, not just a Zecher of the Edus that was around during the first Beis Hamikdash.

    This coupled with the fact that they had no other oil to use anyhow, they left it and it continued to burn.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. Toi
    beware the cleats

    Halevi-its R chaims kasha. Shemen that expanded, or whatever, didnt come from an olive, and isnt kosis either. therefore it should be possul. shemen that looks and smells like shemen zayis isnt, unless it came from an olive.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. longarekel
    Member

    It was olive oil. But after filling the neiros, they found that the jug still contained the oil that they had poured into the neiros. Of course that's not scientifically possible. That was the neis. The olive oil was poured out of the jug and at the same time it remained in the jug. I will not attemp to explain it. It is a neis.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    Haleivi
    I was right about Tamei oil. Below is a cut and paste from Havolim. Btw he has good schoirah on this topic.
    The rule of Tumah Hutrah Betzibbur is this: Generally, the Kohanim who do the Avodah and the ritual objects which are used in the Avodah, must be Tahor. If, however, the majority of the Kohanim are Tamei, or if the Korban itself became tamei, or if no oil/flour/wine is available which is tahor, then we invoke the rule of Tumah Hutrah Betzibbur, which allows us to disregard Tumah problems.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. longarekel
    Member

    I don't know what all the fuss is about. Of course tuma hutra but that's only if there is no tahor oil. So they looked for tahor oil and they found one jug. Hashem did a neis and the tahor oil lasted eight days to show chavivus for bnei yisrael that they wouldn't have to use tamei oil. (BTW it's not so pashut that the issue was tuma and tahara. It could be that there simply was no other oil valid for the menora since menora oil had to be specially processed. It took eight days to process proper oil.)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    If each day only 1/8 of the oil burned for an entire day, then the 8th day was as miraculous as the first.

    I like the idea that we should look for the miraculous in our day to day experiences. It IS a miracle that oil will light, even if only for one day. It is a miracle that water will put out a fire. It is a miracle that most of us go to sleep at night and wake up the next morning. The laws of Nature are a miracle. But IMO, the fact that the laws were suspended in such a way as to cause a strong flame to burn using only an 1/8 of the fuel, is TRULY miraculous.

    The first day's miracle was also that amidst such massive tumah and shmutz, that somehow ONE single cruse of oil was even able to be found with the Kohein's seal still upon it, untouched, and pure. I to a MUCH lesser degree l'havdil, experienced a taste of this kind of miracle when we were burglarized many years ago.

    The burglar(s) had taken all my jewelry, everything in the bedroom was tossed around and wrecked, in shambles. I was heartbroken, that my lifetime gifts of gold jewelry (more sentimentally important to me than anything else) were gone.

    Especially upsetting was the loss of a ring my mom O"H had given me when her mother was nifteres. My Bubby lived with us for over 2 decades, and when she took ill that last year, I had the zechus of taking care of her much of the time. It was my personal Yerusha from Bubby and I wore it as happily as she did. The theft of that one ring brought me to wracking sobs. I know jewelry should not be THAT important, but it was a symbolic loss of HER all over again.

    Imagine my shock and profound relief and gratitude to Hashem when I began to clean up the bedroom, after the cops left, and as I knelt down to pick up some clothing that had been strewn around, found that precious ring, that apparently had fallen out of their "loot" bag. It was the only thing left of all my jewelry, other than my wedding ring, that I had been wearing. I will not compare the finding of that ring to the finding of one flask of pure olive oil, but it gives me some small measure of the simcha and relief the Chashmonaim must have felt at that time.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. Matan1
    Member

    The answer is in the book of maccabees. They were celebrating a delayed sukkot. In reality, the miracle was only 7 days.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    Matan: I used to think that was the answer, and also greatly explains what relevance Parei Hechag have to Channukah. But I mentioned it to R' Schachter and he said he thinks it's a mistake. It wasn't that they celebrated Sukkos. He quotes a Tanchuma that says that all Umos used to dance with Lulavim after celebrating a military victory. Thus, the taking of Lulavim after winning the war wasn't a delayed Sukkos; it was just how everyone celebrated winning a war.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. Matan1
    Member

    did the war end with the miracle of the oil?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. takahmamash
    Member

    I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but I must say I'm impressed that there are so many replies about the Beis Yosef's kasha. I mean, did he prepare it differently than we do? Was his kasha in a different kind of box? And finally, what hechsher was the Beis Yoasf's kasha under? Would we eat of his kasha today, or are we more machmir than his generation?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    Sam2
    The Rokeach says that they celebrated Sukkos then. Let Rav Shachter argue with Rishonim.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. gavra_at_work
    caution

    interestingly enough, this hutra bi'tizbura business w/ regard to the menorah is suspect- if you look at the gemara in yuma, it brings ribuyim or learns out all things that have it. the menorah wasnt a korban. whats pshat in the kasha mitchila??

    Do I know you? I was about to mention the same. There seems to be no reason why you can't light with Tamei Oil!

    Rav Eibshitz actually says regarding this something very difficult, that this is why Chanuka is the Yom Tov of Torah SheBaal Peh. Hashem was telling us through the Nes that the oil of the Menorah MUST be Tahor, even though there is no Remez in Torah SheBKsav for such a thing. Very difficult to understand.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. sam4321
    Member

    The sefer Mor Uktzia asks a very strong kasha on why it took 8 days to get new oil. He asks that there is a Mishna in taharas which is qouted in mesheces shabbas ,perek chavis shnishbarah which says that if a tamai meis squeezs out oil from olives without touching it and it being smaller than an egg the oil is not tamai,so why couldn't they just squeeze the oil without touching it?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Tosafos holds that Miderabanan food can become Tamei less than a Kebei'a. The whole Tuma in question here is Tuma Derabanan, anyhow. The oil became Tamei because of the Gezeira of Kezavim.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. Kozov
    Member

    Toi, it's originally the Chidushei Harim's kasha (though R' Chaim may have added reasoning in saying it has to have been "kasis"). And both the Chidushei Harim and R' Chaim are muchrach to answer that there is a difference between oil that "expanded" in the proximity of "real" olive oil, whatever that means, and olive oil created from nothing. However, in light of the answer I provided above that the oil never decreased until the eigth day, we do not need to be forced into that explanation for this question.

    Shticky Guy's answer about making sure Beis Hillel and Shamai's opinions never align so therefore no seven days also answers the question of why not nine days because of sfeika dyoma. -Gra

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. Toi
    beware the cleats

    GAW- I've got a present for you. look at ohr gedalyahu on chanuka. if you go through his pshatim on chanuka- the nes, the milchama, the nitzachon-youll understand what he says clearly, that thas the exact nekuda of chanuka being the y"t of tshb"p- our ability to be mechadesh onto torah shebiksav. really kidai.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    I saw today in the Derech Chochmah (Beis Habchirah 7:10 in the Beur Hahalachah) where he quoted from R' Elyashiv that the reason Channukah is 8 days is that if there were 7 branches on the Channukiah it would be an Issur D'oraisa.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Sam,

    Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank said it also (Mikraei Kodesh).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. longarekel
    Member

    Interesting. But who said to have a chanukia? You can light with individual cups which would avoid the issur.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    The way R' Frank said it is that it would create a michshol, not that it would be required.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    Longarekel: Rav Schachter quotes the Maharal that you need Dumia D'mikdash and therefore you need them all in a Kli. And besides, the Lashon of R' Chaim's was that people might come to use a 7-branch Channukiah, not that they would have to.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    That's truely odd. If it were seven days who said Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin would be to light on more each night? This concept of having a Menora is only about convenience. If it would not be allowed it would never become the Minhag.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. Kozov
    Member

    Sam, how would it be or lead to an Issur when it has always been permissible to make a 7 branch menora with wood or glass?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. benignuman
    The Congenial Na Nach

    I think that Matan's answer is correct in that they were making up for missing Sukkos that year and according to Bais Shammai the lighting of Chanukah neiros is somehow tied to the parei hachag.

    However since we pasken like Bais Hillel the implication is that we don't hold that the reason is parei hachag, bringing back the Bais Yosef's question.

    We can answer very simply, however, along Matan's line of reasoning. Chanukah means a dedication because fundamentally the Bais Hamikdosh (and Klal Yisrael) was rededicated to Hashem. The Chanukas HaBais for the Mishkan was 8 days as was the Chanukas HaBais for the 1st Bais Hamikdosh (I don't know about the 2nd). They therefore made Channukah, as a holiday of dedication, 8 days.

    The mitzvah of neiros was to light one candle and l'mehadrin, to add to the parsumei nissa and kedusha, to add a candle each night until you have eight.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. tzaddiq
    Member

    my friend told me an answer to the b.y.'s kasha.
    when moshe split the yam suf, he was commanded to do a פּעולה of raising his hands, and then the water divided. But when the yidden left the yam suf, moshe was commanded to do a פּעולה to bring the water back to its original state. we see from here, that if moshe didn't do that, if he didn't do that second פּעולה, the water would have remained suspended in its new miraculous state. because a neis, in its essense, is למעלה מן הטבע, and therefore has no גבול, no limit nor boundry. And unless something is done to counteract that, it will remain in its matzav nissi.

    so by chanuka the fact that the oil burned 8 days was a נס גלוי. but the phenomenon of the oil STOPPING TO BURN by itself at the end of the 8th day, WHEN NO פּעולה WAS DONE TO EXTRICATE IT FROM ITS MATZAV NISSI, was an additional neis in of itself, and perhaps a גילוי that all 8 days are really one big miracle, including the very first day, through the פּעולה of lighting that original ner.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. Kozov
    Member

    tzaddiq- Don't we have a principle לא עביד קוב"ה ניסא למגנא? The ness could just have had an expiration time, which is whenever they would bring the pure oil. -Lubavitcher Rebbe

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15868&st=&pgnum=122

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    Maybe the ness of the first day is that it is possible to spend so much time on a single kasha. This is the same idea as the rest of the days that a single jug of oil produces so much אש התורה.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    The nes of Chanukah is that eventhough in every generation the goyim try to extinguish our mesorah of torah shebaal peh, there is always a single jug of oil that they can't get their hands on. The nes is that this jug keeps the menorah burning with the אש התורה forever. So in a time of the year when the night is long and it seems that the golus isn't going to end we thank Hashem that כי לא יכבה בלילה נירה

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. tzaddiq
    Member

    bump

    this is a nice chanukah thread. i love some of the answers here

    Posted 11 months ago #
  36. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    This question is the Torah version of, Why Did The Chicken Cross The Road. Everyone gives you the answer that comes from their way of thinking. Chassidus, Mussar, beauty of nature, thankfulness, Girsaos, history, revisionist history, Kfira, disregard of the Kasha, Tzvei Dinim, Me'ikara Lo Kasha, philosophy, and I guess I left out some.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  37. GG yekke
    Member

    i heard an answer today from R' Elchanan Halpern Shlit''a
    When they found the oil they found it buried in the ground of the Azarah, b/c a goy is considered to have Tumei Zovim - and this tumah is metamei even with just moving something. So had the oil been lying around the Yevonim would have moved it thus making it Tamei.
    So we ask that maybe they did move it? we have a Klal that Sofek Tumeh nirshus harabim is tahor so even had the jug been lying around it would have been Tohor in anyway? Why did it have to be in the ground?
    The Yidden planned to use an 1/8 of the Tahor oil each day and then pour in the rest of tomei oil and it would be botul (by doing it slowly, drop by drop each drop is botul). But although we say that Sofek tumeh birshus harabim is tahor it doesnt have the power to be mevatel tamei oil so it had to be buried so that there would be no Safek.
    This was the nes that on the first day they found oil which there was no safek whether it was tahor or tamei
    Good Shabbos

    Posted 11 months ago #
  38. Very interesting. Do you have a mekor to that - that sfeko tahor cannot be mevatel tamei?

    Posted 11 months ago #

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