Kedusha

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  • #1532744

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    I’ve had some thoughts on kedusha, based on what I’ve learned, that came up because of a new phenomenon I was a bit surprised to learn about, and thought it may be interesting to discuss.

    There are two meanings to Kedusha:

    separation and unity. We see this by marriage where harei at mekudeshes li denotes that the man is separating this woman from all the others in the world, to be united with him.

    There are also two ways to live by kedusha in this world. ONe: By separating from worldly ways to be an Am Kadosh for Hashem.

    Two: to unite the world with Hashem, and bring Hashem into the world, like by performing a mitzva we say asher kidishanu… and then we make physical things Kadosh.

    They seem opposite but complement each other: By remaining apart from the rest of the world, we can retain the focus and mindset to make everything we come in contact with, holy.

    It sometimes is interesting though becuase kedusha can mean two opposite approaches to Yiddishkeit, and sometimes they are a matter of timing, whereas others, different parts of Klal Yisrael, as one body express one or the other.

    Examples:
    Kedusha means shutting out the world and society/ Kedusha means teaching society about sheva mitzvos bnei noach, and mekareving other Yidden

    Kedusha means being close to your wife/ Kedusha means remain apart as much as possible (Gur)

    Kedusha means being an Ish Ohel and ataining lofty personal achievement/ Kedusha means making a Kiddush Hashem in business practices, and maintaining Jewish pride, dress and symbold while immersed in society Ish Sode.

    #1532915

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Kedusha means separation. Where do we find otherwise?

    #1533007

    apushatayid
    Participant

    kedoshim tihyu, it encompasses a lot of things. those are examples.

    #1533011

    apushatayid
    Participant

    havdala = separation. kedusha is probably better translated as set aside or reserved for a (lofty) purpose.

    #1533074

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rashi and Ramban (based on a Medrash) translate Kedoshim as Perushim.

    The word havdalah is in fact used as well (e.g. Sifsei Chachomim).

    #1533078

    laskern
    Participant

    The Ben Ish Chai explains that it says ויחן שם ישראל נגד ההר the bnei yisroel rested in unity around the mountain. When you take the letters around הר before and after. Before is ד, ק and after is ו, ש putting it all together we get קדוש holy, indicating that unity brings to sanctity.

    #1533085

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sanctity also leads to unity. See Ramban on Kedoshim that it brings us close to Hashem.

    The word kedusha still doesn’t mean unity, though.

    #1533110

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at the Alshich Hakodash on the Dor Haflaga, The outside impure chizonim wanted to be come holy by creating unity through building the tower, so Hashem broke up the unity,

    #1533119

    Joseph
    Participant

    The original example works for women since they can only be married to one man but not for men since they can marry multiple women.

    #1533768

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The original example works for women since they can only be married to one man but not for men since they can marry multiple women.

    Why the obsession?

    #1534050

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “The original example works for women since they can only be married to one man but not for men since they can marry multiple women.”

    This statement is kind of random. Nothing in chabadshlucha’s post implied otherwise.

    #1534172

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram, ChabadShlucha’s point about “… separation and unity. We see this by marriage where harei at mekudeshes li denotes that the man is separating this woman from all the others in the world”, that she built a point upon, is only applicable by women for the reason I mentioned. That’s all I was saying.

    #1534176

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Any opportunity to mention multiple wives.

    #1534194

    Joseph
    Participant

    Multiple wives, multiple wives, multiple wives.

    There. Another three opportunities.

    (Anything to tick you off, why not.) 🤣

    #1534205

    Phil
    Participant

    “Multiple wives, multiple wives, multiple wives.”

    Joseph,

    You do have this strange obsession with the topic and you even claim to be married to three women. At times, it’s hard to believe that you’re married at all.

    #1534222

    Joseph
    Participant

    I think you’d agree that it wouldv’e been difficult to have 27 children with one wife.

    #1534233

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Things must be pretty crowded inside your head with all of those pretend wives and children.

    #1534509

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    DY I looked it up youre right. Kedusha is for the sake of unity but does not mean unity. As in Voavdil eschem min Hoamim liyos li. Or as in marriage as stated above.

    Yeah Joseph thats why multiple wives have never worked out well in Torah. Its not a first option, rather used as a last resort if the couple can’t have children but don’t want to get divorced, or there aren’t enough men to marry and support the women. BH those situations don’t apply as much today and the cherem reflects that it was never a great thing.

    #1534541

    Joseph
    Participant

    CS: On what basis are you generalizing that it hasn’t worked out well from the times of the Torah through today (including by non-Ashkenazim)?

    #1535029

    rational jew
    Participant

    Kedusha is often misunderstood by many, in my opinion. It means something special and unique that requires appropriate respect. It may involve separation from the physical, but to define it as separation would be very inaccurate. It is easy to make that mistake as Rashi does quote a midrash that says that “kedoshim tihyu” here is referring to separation from unacceptable relationships and sin in general. The Ramban goes further and includes distasteful behaviour such as vulgar language and overeating, which are not explicitly prohibited by the Torah. It might sound like this means avoiding physical pleasure as much as possible. But with a little examination of the context of the use of the word “Kadosh” in general, it would seem like the a better approximate translation would be special, noble or dignified. Occasionally avoiding some pleasures are incidental to acting as a member of the elite group designated by Hashem Himself as those who must be an example to the world and demonstrate how to be His faithful servant and partner in creating a perfect world, a utopian society, where there is no evil to fear and all men seek only the best for his fellow man. Peace and love, laughter and joy, will replace the tears of today. We have already succeeded to a large degree in influencing the world to be so much kinder and more compassionate than even a century ago. There is much more to be done, but we are far away from the cruelty that was once the norm. War is slowly going out of fashion. Such a nation as ours must certainly act in a way that befits such a princely mission.
    To describe that as separation from bodily pleasure is simply a misrepresentation. It is like describing the actions of someone who wants to be healthy strong, and live long (a very important goal mentioned in the Torah many times and should be common sense,) as avoiding physical pleasure. This could not be further from the truth! He may avoid many foods and overeating, keep a strict routine and engage in sometimes painful exercises, but he is doing all this in order to enjoy life more!
    Similarly, a prince may deprive himself from many common indulgences in order to enjoy his position properly with the respect and dignity it deserves. Self sacrifice is sometimes the opposite of what is expected of him as a member of the royal family. Often he is required to indulge when it is inappropriate not to, such as regards to appealing clothing, appearance and general conduct such as how and what he eats.
    To conclude, misunderstanding the meaning of Kedusha could very well lead to the opposite of Kedusha, not to mention unnecessary suffering to others.

    #1535031

    RSo
    Participant

    rational jew wrote “the word “Kadosh” in general, it would seem like the a better approximate translation would be special, noble or dignified”.

    How would you explain lo sihyeh kedaisha … velo yihyeh kadaish?

    #1535103

    rational jew
    Participant

    Kadosh means special or different. It can be positive or negative. With kilayim, pen tikdash ham’leah it is more or less neutral, but is in a special category. In the usual positive ‘holy’ use of the word, it means noble .

    #1535107

    rational jew
    Participant

    The English word special has similar usage. ‘Special education’ is not the same use of the word as ‘there is something special about a shul’!

    #1535113

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Kadosh means special or different. It can be positive or negative.

    Are there Scriptural examples of it being used in a negative way?

    #1535115

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    לא תהיה קדשה

    #1535497

    Avi K
    Participant

    Why Joseph? If she marries at 15 and averages one per year that will only take her until age 42.

    #1535346

    DovidBT
    Participant

    לא תהיה קדשה

    Was that a response to my question?

    #1535509

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes

    #1535516

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Yes

    Where does the verse appear?

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-100.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  DovidBT. Reason: Irrelevant text removed
    #1535862

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    דברים כג יח

    #1536019

    DovidBT
    Participant

    דברים כג יח

    I wasn’t aware that the same word was used in that context. Thanks for helping me increase my knowledge of Torah. 🙂

    #1536033

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You’re welcome.
    🙂

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