Kosher Cruise

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  • #618952
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Have you gone on a kosher cruise?

    What’s it like? How do they accommodate for Shabbos?

    #1220031
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There are 2 kinds of Kosher Cruises, There is Kosherica which rents space on a cruise and has their own chef to make kosher food

    And you can also go on a regular cruise and order kosher food (Airline food) without paying any extra money

    #1220032
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Two things please:

    1) I imagine it’s harder for men to go on a regular cruise, considering they would have to exert extra energy in shimrat aynayim.

    Also, we’re not supposed to test ourselves, or put ourselves in a testy situation. So how does that work with going on a regular cruise?

    2) While no rabbi is going to say, sure that’s totally fine and dandy, is it normal for some people to take a break from being frum in order to be frum in the long-haul?

    Example, someone who normally davens in a minyan, is strict about shomer aynayim, and shomer negiah on a day to day basis. Once or twice a year, this person goes on vacation where he is more relaxed by davening on his own, and only keeps the written Torah laws on negiah.

    Or this can also apply to a woman (sans the whole davening in a minyan and at proscribed times thing).

    Both may dress more casual than usual during this vacation.

    …Wondering how people keep going and going. Yes even when being fully and totally observant is meaningful, and being relaxed or sinful is a great transgression, does anyone need a break from being frum?

    Or am I looking at it from the BT perspective, early on, where each detail literally is something that I think about and make a conscious choice after conscious choice to perform?

    At some point, is observance automatic?

    #1220034
    lesschumras
    Participant

    With Kosherica, you experience Shabbos in a way that is impossible when you go on your own. On the Kosherica cruise I took : 1. A salon was assigned to Kosherica for use as a shul 2. On Shabbos, two elevators were set up as Shabbos elevators 3. All electronic doors between shul and the dining room were converted to manual operation. 4. Instead of frozen dinners, we enjoyed fresh Shabbos meals 5. There were sheurim

    #1220035
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I imagine it’s harder for men to go on a regular cruise, considering they would have to exert extra energy in shimrat aynayim.

    #1220037
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Cruises are not safe.

    #1220038
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I never needed a break from being Frum. Of course when it comes to those areas of Yiddishkeit that I am still working on and not so strong in and don’t come as naturally to me, there will be times when I am tired either physically or emotionally and don’t have the strength to fight my nature.

    For example, when I am exhausted or stressed, I may be less careful about not speaking about things that one is not allowed to talk about on Shabbos. But it’s not like I would make a conscious decision that this week I am taking a break from not talking about forbidden things on Shabbos. It just happens because I don’t have the energy to be as careful as useful.

    Your situation is different because you are still “becoming bt”, so most things are not second – nature to yet. But this is a good reminder as to why you need to take things slowly, one step at a time. You don’t want to go too far too fast and then going backwards because you took on too much at once. You should take things on as you are ready for them so that you don’t end up feeling you need a “vacation” from being Frum.

    There is a really good booklet, put out by Midreshet Rachayl, called, “How to get deeper into Torah without going off the deep end”. Have you ever seen it? I think you should read it if you have a chance.

    #1220040
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    FYI: Sorry for the repeat on the shimrat aynayim. I wasn’t sure if the first longer post would be approved, so I wrote a shorter version and then this mini on and the bigger one were both approved (Thank you Mods).

    RebYidd23: What makes a cruise unsafe? Isn’t it probably more safe than a road trip.

    lesschumras: That sounds so cool!!! Shiurs on a ship! Aww. That kinda just sold me.

    lilmod ulelamaid: Yay I love your reading suggestions! Thanks 🙂

    So I found the full PDF of this online “How to Get Deeper Into Torah Without Going Off the Deep End,” by Friedman the Tutor.

    Is this the same booklet?

    #1220041

    LB

    if a person says im willing to become jewish except for 1 halacha i cant keep then he is not allowed to convert & no rabbi is permitted to convert him. EVEN IF THE RABBI SAYS IM SURE IN A MONTH ONCE S/HE SEES THE SWEETNESS OF JUDAISM S/HE WILL BE WILLING TO KEEP THIS LAST MITZVA

    #1220042
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    At some point, is observance automatic?

    Yes it is. for example its alot easier to keep kosher if you always kept kosher than if you did not keep kosher for a while. If someone grew up eating and like shrimp or lobster, Its alot harder to give that up than if you grew up not eating it.

    #1220043
    catch yourself
    Participant

    MA – Of course, you will agree that there is a fundamental difference between becoming a Ba’al Teshuva and becoming a Geir Tzedek regarding precisely this point.

    Whatever progress a person makes towards becoming more observant is cherished by HKB”H, even if they are not “all the way there” yet.

    #1220044
    Meno
    Participant

    Es Chata’ai Ani Mazkir Hayom…

    I once went on a “non-kosher” cruise with some friends (I’m not advocating for it, just saying I did it). We saw a few other Jews so we tried putting together a minyan, but it didn’t really happen. Then all of a sudden on Friday night there was a minyan with like 50 people. I don’t know where they all came from.

    The airline food was decent, I never would have paid 5 times the price (literally – look it up) for whatever a kosher cruise offers. Most of the issues which exist on a non-kosher cruise are either avoidable on your own, or not solved by a kosher cruise.

    #1220045
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    When people go on road trips, they typically take attendance or whatever it’s called.

    #1220046
    Joseph
    Participant

    Meno, which issues a) could you resolve on your own and b) which aren’t resolved even on a kosher cruise?

    #1220047
    Meno
    Participant

    Joseph,

    a) I guess it depends on the cruise ship, but I didn’t have any problems with automatic doors or elevators, we brought our own cold food for shabbos (granted we didn’t have hot food, but again, I’m not willing to pay five times the price for that).

    b) Shemiras einayim issues – I can’t see how a kosher cruise can resolve that.

    #1220048
    Joseph
    Participant

    Is shmiras einayim worse on a cruise than on a busy street in a non-Jewish commercial neighborhood?

    #1220049
    Meno
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Probably. Assuming the weather is nice, a cruise ship is pretty much the same as a beach.

    #1220050
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph……yes it is worse on a cruise.

    Years ago, cruises were more formal. Passengers would either change for the swimming pool in locker rooms adjoining the pool or wear full robes when going from the cabin to the pool. Now, passengers will walk the gangways in their bathingsuits with a towel thrown on their shoulders…totally inappropriate. Mrs. CTL and I stopped cruising in the early 90s because of this. Never mind, the tank tops and short shorts now allowed in the dining rooms.

    We started cruising back in the 70s when the QE2 had a full kosher kitchen and there was an acceptable dress code on board. PLUS there were no electronic room keys. Nowadays, we can’t handle 14 deck ships that are 3 football fields long and call a Shabbos navigating that enjoyable

    tiny edit

    #1220052
    Joseph
    Participant

    Being that cruises, even so-called “kosher” ones (what a misnomer!), are like being on a beach, there’s no heter for a Jew to go on a cruise. They’re all treif.

    #1220053
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    For men: What happens if you’re on a regular cruise, being awesome in shemiras einayim.

    Then an untznius couple basically puts their camera in your hands and asks you to take a photograph of them?

    Can you say that you’re not wearing your glasses? But you might be wearing them. Or the couple may notice you never wear glasses and manage to see just fine.

    Or do you quickly take the photograph to make a kiddush Hashem?

    …What if you know that the pic didn’t turn out well (eyes closed, one of them sneezed, etc), are you permitted to take another? I guess it depends on the person, right?

    Imho, being on a regular cruise would limit those types of interactions or nisayons.

    Also, even when one eats kosher food on a nonkosher cruise, being around nonkosher food could be a great nisayon. I know for me, sometimes nonkosher fruit platters are tempting.

    I’m not sure why it would move past “no, sorry”. You may want to re-explore your definition of kiddush Hashem

    #1220054
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Kosher cruises have different types of activities set up.

    Whereas on a regular cruise, people may spend the time off-shore at the pool, people on a kosher cruise would attend a shiur.

    There is also Jewish music as entertainment, versus who knows what on a different cruise.

    A cruise ship can host a different crowd than usual and the planners can adapt the space and ambience accordingly. Hence, the kosher cruises.

    Think of it like a venue.

    The beach isn’t inherently treif. It’s what happens at the beach and who goes there and how it’s used that puts one’s soul at risk from exposure.

    It’s even possible that the pools on these cruises can be covered with flooring and adapted for kosher use.

    #1220055
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, unless you’ve person send on a cruise,you can’t declare something treif based on hearsay. The Alaska cruise I was on had 150 passengers ( out of 900 ) with Kosherica. We had our own dining area so no treif at our table. The weather wasn’t warm enough for bathing suits, especially if you didn’t go to the swimming pool on the top deck. As Meno said, it is more expensive but what price do you put on having minyanim, shiurim and fresh food everyday, meaningful Shabbos programs nd being with 150 other frum Jews while being able to enjoy the sights of Alaska. Shmiras ynayim is a problem anywhere

    #1220056
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Including the internet.

    Or maybe the difference between shimras eynayim elsewhere versus on a cruise is that the cruise is recreational travel, whereas walking around a busy street could be necessary for parnassah and regular living?

    So then the issue is what can one do to for recreation and sight-seeing?

    Traveling can feed the neshamah in a positive spiritual way.

    I heard of a study where people generally like to travel when they’re older. Not only because they may be retired, or have the money.

    Mostly, as one has lived in this world longer, farther sights may be sought out to stimulate the mind and heart. To see the world in a spiritual light, and step back and appreciate the details and differences between cultures.

    At the same time, this stimulation can also come from going deeper in the creative, physical, or even spiritual arts.

    #1220057
    Joseph
    Participant

    So I need to have treif before I can say something is treif? We need a victim before we can say it’s bad? I think not.

    On your entire so-called “kosher” cruise did you see (even in the corner of your eye or from a distance) even one of the non-kosher passengers in their swimwear or otherwise not fully dressed while you walked around on deck, below deck, in the hallways or elsewhere?

    #1220058
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Joseph, unless you’ve person send on a cruise,you can’t declare something treif based on hearsay.”

    I think he was just responding to what Meno and Ct Lawyter said. He originally asked the question without making any assumptions.

    “Shmiras ynayim is a problem anywhere”

    1. It is worse in some places than in others and a person is OBLIGATED according to halacha to avoid the worse places if he can.

    2. There are places in the world (albeit not too many) where one can avoid shmiras ainayim issues (such as your home, the Beis Medrash, etc.). From what I understand of the halacha, one is not allowed to go ANYWHERE where there are shmiras ainayim issues unless he has to.

    Granted, the exact definition of “unless he has to” is probably somewhat subjective, and I’m sure there are many people who need occasional vacations, but you should still think very carefully about your vacation options, and see if you can find an option that won’t present shmiras ainayim issues (or the minimal possible).

    #1220059
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Lightbrite – there is a very common misconception regarding the halachic definition of the terms Kiddush Hashem and Chillul Hashem.

    A lot of people think that anything that causes not-religious Jews to think well of Religious Jews or non-Jews to think well of Jews is by definition a Kiddush Hashem, and that anything that causes not-religious Jews to think badly of Religious Jews or non-Jews to think badly of Jews is be definition a Chillul Hashem.

    However, that is not correct according to Halacha. If someone is doing the wrong thing, even if looks good to others, it is a Chillul Hashem. Likewise, if someone does the right thing, even if makes others look down on him, it is actually a Kiddush Hashem and not a Chilul Hashem.

    Of course, if someone can do the right thing in a pleasant, polite way that doesn’t look bad, then that is the better choice and a bigger Kiddush Hashem. But if it is not possible, then the biggest Kiddush Hashem is to do the right thing anyhow.

    There may be some cases where one is supposed to “compromise” for the sake of a Kiddush Hashem, but that is generally only in a case where you are not actually doing something forbidden. Maybe you are giving up on a chumra, for example, because it will offend someone. Or in some cases, you may be allowed to follow a leniency in order not to offend someone. Those are the types of things that can come up when dealing with not-Religious family members or others, and one should ask a sheilah in those cases.

    #1220060
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB- In your example above, I would agree with the moderator that it probably shouldn’t be so complicated to say “I’m so sorry, but I can’t take the picture for you.”. There may be many reasons why someone can’t take a picture, and I don’t think anyone will ask for an explanation.

    When it comes to these types of issues, I think that people often think they are more complicated than they really are. One big issue that people often have is the “shaking hands with members of the opposite gender” issue. People always ask, “what do you do if someone of the opposite gender wants to shake hands with you? Won’t they be offended if you don’t?”

    Personally, I have rarely found this to be a problem. I simply tell them that I can’t shake their hands for religious reasons and they are usually fine with that. The only time it is a problem is when I am with other religious family members who do shake hands with not-religious relatives who then may think that I am rude for not shaking hands with them. But I think if anyone is causing a chilul Hashem in that case, it is the ones who shake hands and make the ones who don’t look bad. If no one did, then no one think badly of it.

    #1220061
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    lightbrite: please define “non-kosher fruit platter”.

    #1220062
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Mods, really? You can say “no, sorry,” and no one is going to say, “Hey that Jewish guy is a jerk.” or “What’s up with that Jewish guy? Why won’t he just take our picture?”

    That’s a relief. I thought that sometimes you have to respond to respect the people and/or not embarrass them.

    By kiddush Hashem, I meant that someone will see a Jewish person doing this and say that Jews are courteous, approachable, and kind.

    For example, I’ve read that in some cases, someone who is shomer negiah will shake someone else’s hand if it is super awkward and rejection would bring shame to the other person.

    I knew someone who would talk to me about this stuff a lot. Since he wears a kippa, he said that the way that he acts with strangers affects their impressions of the Jewish people, Torah observance, and Hashem.

    Thank you

    #1220063
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    lesschumras: “The weather wasn’t warm enough for bathing suits, especially if you didn’t go to the swimming pool on the top deck.”

    That’s a smart way to avoid shmira ainayim issues – go in the winter!

    #1220064
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, if you are relying on hearsay, keep your comments to yourself. I don’t recall if I did see anything on my kosher cruise, but, that can happen anytime anywhere. If you don’t like it, you have a choice, go or don’t go

    #1220065
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Question please:

    I was under the impression that the entire cruise ship is kosher, and all the guests are there for the kosher cruise.

    It sounds like the kosher cruise is a partitioned section of the entire cruise ship. Is that correct?

    If so…

    Are there opportunities to see/hear/know what’s happening on the nonkosher section with the regular guests?

    That would add more nisayons and sheilot.

    #1220066
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB- regarding Kiddush Hashem issues, read my above posts (which you didn’t see before you wrote your last one) if you didn’t already.

    In terms of leniencies for shaking hands, it is not so simple. I think that most Rabbis says that most people should not do so, but you should ask your own sheilah since it is the type of thing that may depend on the person and the circumstance.

    #1220068
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Oops there are a couple posts that I didn’t see before sending mine.

    Thanks LU!

    #1220069
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB- I think they weren’t moderated yet when you wrote yours. That is why I wanted to make sure you saw them

    #1220070
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Nonkosher fruit platter: (n) Referring to fruit topped with sauces made from nonkosher animals, topped with shavings of dairy chocolates.

    Just kidding. I mean this…

    Nonkosher fruit platter: (n)

    Refers to a platter of pre-cut and/or washed fruit, including diced pineapple, sliced kiwi, halved strawberries, whole blueberries, sliced melons, and papaya smiles.

    The fruit is typically arranged on a silver plate in a colorwheel of delight.

    The fruit platter does not come with a hescher. Since the fruit was cut and prepared in a presumably nonkosher kitchen, using treifed-out knives, and presented on a treifed-out platter (with or without doilies), this fruit is off limits for Yidden.

    Sincerely,

    Webster’s Lightbrite

    #1220071
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    “That’s a smart way to avoid shmira ainayim issues – go in the winter! ” (LU)

    LU +1 for the positivity 🙂

    #1220072
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    LU: One thing I love about not shaking hands is when someone else is like “Omgosh me too!”

    Background: Honestly I know that this is for religious purposes, shomer negiah. Still, the stuff that I’ve read about it is so true. In other words, having someone else touch me does affect me personally.

    It’s kind of ridiculous that a stranger can literally go up to you and demand that you touch him or her. Then from that point on, not touching this person is socially understandable.

    Yet when I had no clue who this person was, I am obligated to put the hand and digits that I use for such personal matters (feeding myself, writing notes, showing my dog affection, taking contacts out of my eyes, driving my car, putting on my shoes, and I need not go on) into this person’s hand and grasp?

    Obviously even when I know the person, that doesn’t mean that I owe this person touch.

    I do want my touch to be special and reserved.

    Sometimes I just say that I don’t want to touch someone else. It affects my energy and it’s a boundary issue.

    Sometimes someone will agree and say that he, and mostly she, also doesn’t like doing it. And yes sometimes shaking someone’s hand feels like someone just vacuumed my emotional reserves.

    Am I the only one here? Any guys feel this way about shaking hands?

    #1220073
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I don’t want to blame frum Jews who do shake hands as making non-shaking frum Jews look bad or extreme.

    From the outside perspective, it does seem inconsistent and confusing when I met someone who was frum and shook hands, and even hugged individuals of the opposite gender.

    Now that I am more acculturated to variations in observance and perspectives, I realize that Jews who are frum are individuals with various beliefs and in various places of observance.

    —-Related to the part about family members who get offended, that bothers me a lot. I think it’s disrespectful for someone to get angry at someone taking the initiative to set boundaries on one’s beliefs.

    I found certain family to be much more accommodating to my diet when I only ate plant-based foods, which was based on secular beliefs, than they were to interacting with my frum friends.

    People can relate and want to join in on eating more healthy.

    As for being more religious, spmetimes the ones who are happy and proud to be where they are, to the extent that they built their lives around this unorthodox identity, take respecting someone else’s observance and beliefs as an attack on their own.

    The nisayon of keeping shomer negiah works both ways.

    #1220074
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I have never been on a cruise and unless I am going to Greece or Alaska, I have no intention on going.

    But people are complaining about cruises, How about people going to Florida. Why do you think people go to Florida? To hang out at the Beis Medrash of Miami Beach?

    #1220075
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LB: even though the fruit platter was prepared in a non-kosher kitchen there are some who may be lenient. As LU states consult a Rav with these shailos.

    #1220076
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    What’s wrong with the Beis Medrash of Miami Beach?

    #1220077
    Joseph
    Participant

    lessc: One doesn’t have the option to either go or not go; one has the obligation to not go.

    #1220078
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, you have a right to your uninformed opinion. But remember, don’t step out of your house in the summer, go to a park, a zoo or anywhere else where attendance is optional but there might be an issue of shmirat anayim

    #1220079
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    lightbrite………

    Please allow me to correct a misconception you have about people who eat or keep ‘kosher’.

    Many of these people are not ‘frum’ but we we call Euro-traditional or Conservative. They may book a kosher cruise because it’s a family vacation and bubbe only eats kosher food. But the children and grandchildren will be partaking of all the regular ship activities, not attending shiurim or Jewish Music evening entertainments. Bubbe, herself may be happy with kosher food, but be the first in line for a nighclub show with scantily clad showgirls and also head for the casino.

    I live in a small town. There are probably 100 homes with ‘kosher’ kitchens, but probably only one dozen of the families are ‘frum.’ BUT, without the support of the other 88% kosher butchers and bakers would not be in business. The same goes for kosher cruises, summer camps and even kosher kitchens at universities and colleges. A ‘kosher’ cruise does not guaranty a ‘kosher’ crowd.

    #1220080
    Joseph
    Participant

    lessc: Parks and zoos do not have swimwear clad women prancing around. Cruises do, as multiple other posters with this unfortunate experience testified.

    #1220081
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Actually Parks do have women sunbathing. The parks they are just playgrounds for kids do not, but Central park for sure does

    #1220082
    Meno
    Participant

    “It sounds like the kosher cruise is a partitioned section of the entire cruise ship. Is that correct?”

    I’ve wondered this myself. I can’t imagine its partitioned in a way that stops you from going back and forth. If that were the case and I were one of the regular guests, I would be pretty annoyed that I had paid for a cruise and half of the ship was off-limits.

    Anyone know how it works?

    #1220083
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I would have thought that a kosher cruise meant the whole ship. It sounds like that’s not the case. Is that correct?

    So basically, a kosher cruise just means that there is a kosher dining room and some of the entertainment is kosher. Is that what it is?

    #1220084
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    By the same token, its probably forbidden to go to almost any hotel, especially a resort hotel.

    You might pass the pool area or see someone coming from pool

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