Daas Yochid...."Do you also agree that there might be an issue, even in the kosher Subways, with maris ayin (fake cheese with meat)?"
Not at all, if it's kosher it's ok with me...
I've purchased fake vegan kosher pepperoni and added it to my pizza before...I kind of liked it...
midwestener- I stand corrected. She was rabbah bar avuhas daughter. Thank you.
Not at all, if it's kosher it's ok with me...
I've purchased fake vegan kosher pepperoni and added it to my pizza before...I kind of liked it...
If (and I stress the if; I'm not certain) there is an issue of maris ayin, then it would not be kosher.
The רמ''א יו''ד פ''ז clearly says that meat served (he probably means cooked) in almond milk is assur unless almonds are placed in the "milk".
Unless there are visible bits of soy in the cheese, why would the same issue not apply?
I don't know what "fake vegan kosher pepperoni" looks like to know if there would be maris ayin on it. One could argue that the issur is only on fake dairy not fake meat, by I personally don't see an important distinction there.
The prevalent heter for margarine, soymilk, pareve ice cream, etc. seems to be that these items are more common today than almond milk was in the days of the R"ma. I don't know if this is true or not (רמ''א writes "ונהגו"), but I find it unlikely that fake cheese is. The בדי השלחן seems to be uncertain of this entire heter anyhow.
Daas Yochid- What you are saying is not so pashut. First of all, you made an assumption that the same halacha that applies to fake milk applies to fake meat. While I agree there is no reason to differentiate, when it comes to halachos of maris ayin, poskim are generally very hesitant to extend it more than is actually written, especialy a case like this where the whole maris ayin is iffy to begin with.
The Rama himself in Toras Chatas (klal 62 seif 8) did not hold of the maris ayin unless they were actually cooked together. The Plaisi (siman 87 seif katan 7) was very strong against this chumra. The knesses hagdolah (siman 87 hagahos beis yosef os 8) also seems not to hold of it.
Obviously, one should consult with their rav before eating pepperoni pizza (my rav allows it btw), but i think its pretty clear that there is who to rely on.
I'm curious to know if those who have a problem with the fake cheese and meat also have a problem with the milchig restaurants that serve veggie burgers with cheese?
I found that the mharsha in chidushei agados in chulin 109b, is bothered by with what I was assuming, he explains that one might have thought that all these things that have somthing similar why are they muttar, lichora if hashem wanted it to be assur, for example he gives like blood the genorah in maakos says is miyus, so then why would a liver be muttar? and the same should apply with milk and meat, and on this he goes on to explain that there is no reason why things are assur, rather only because it is mitzvas hamlech, annd thet we are commanded so. But I still doubt that one will find any rov eating a fake cheese burger. Just note that that she was told to eat the utter which has no connection to milk and meat but the taste, I am curious if fake chesse was around in those days if she would be told to et a chesse burger.
newhere,
Thanks for your input and for the מראה מקומות.
Firstly, I never said it was פשוט. Te best argument להתיר might be that it's too prevalent to be an issue of מראית עין, which פוסקים say regarding margarine, but it's far from פשוט (to me) that this would apply to parve cheese.
I haven't seen the כנה''ג yet, so I can't comment on it.
The כו''פ questions the idea that there would be מראית עין in a case where the milk is not really milk (as opposed to where it is milk, but not the type which the תורה referred to). His conclusion is to be מחמיר for meat, but not for chicken (a far cry from “was very strong against this chumra.").
The ש''ך is more מחמיר than the רמ''א and holds it's even a problem on a דרבנן. That would apply to chicken, and also to שלא דרך בישול.
Many אחרונים learn that the רמ''א was only מיקל on a דרבנן when it's בצנעה (which would not be the case in a restaurant). See also פמ''ג who assumes that simple פשט in רמ''א is that by meat, the איסור even applies שלא דרך בישול.
It seems that the only way to be מיקל (besides what I mentioned earlier) would be to hold like the רמ''א, according to how the ש''ך understood him, and not like the ש''ך himself. I don't think the פוסקים take this approach; see בדי השלחן.
Haifagirl,
That case (vegetable burger with cheese) would likely depend on how much it looked like real beef.
I thought this was about a whole separate underground frum public transportation system!!!
But this requires billions of dollars. The amount of money involved can be used to guarantee that every teacher of Torah in the US is paid $2000 a week and on time. If that happened we would have less Josephs' in this coffee room.
Daas Yochid- Thank you for your response. I did not have the plesi in front of me when I wrote my comment, I was relying on my notes. I will try to look at it again tomorrow, and get back to you. I would also add that it is possible to say that in today's day and age where there fake meat and fake cheese is so prevalent and publicized in the media, perhaps there is no maaris ayin on these things. I would imagine that you cannot say that for milk from almonds or human milk but for veggie burgers or pepperoni pizza I don't think it's so shver.
Real Brisker- So you're maskanah is the same as the maharsha's havah aminah. I never said that what you're saying makes no sense, I just said it's wrong, and apparently you looked it up and can't find an argument against that. "But I still doubt that one will find any rov eating a fake cheese burger." C'mon, is that a tannah? The gemara clearly says it's fine. Why you looking for problems? Honestly, I've never seen a rav eat any hamburger. And your chiluk between an udder and a cheese burger makes no sense based on the maharsha you yourself quoted. Think about it.
I would also add that it is possible to say that in today's day and age where there fake meat and fake cheese is so prevalent and publicized in the media, perhaps there is no maaris ayin on these things. I would imagine that you cannot say that for milk from almonds or human milk but for veggie burgers or pepperoni pizza I don't think it's so shver.
As I said, this would be the only reasonable explanation for heter.
I don't deny that it might be right; it's likely that the hechsherim on Subway rely on this. I personally find the distinction shver, but that's based on my personal experience, in which parve pepperoni and cheese are uncommon. As I noted earlier, it doesn't seem as if milk from almonds was extremely rare, since the R"ma uses the term "ונהגו".
Re: the maaris ayin issue.
At catered events which have pareve coffee creamer or ice cream, there is often a sign telling that all milk products are pareve. In restaurants, the menu often mentions it. In either of these scenarios, there would be no problem.
ah, popa~ "catered events which have pareve coffee creamer or ice cream": good point... good example! so true ... no maaris ayin there!
Wolf - I did not mean it literally, I meant that if the torah assured Milk and Meat than why does one have to find a loophole to eat it together? "
Do you utilize the local eruv or use pareve creamer? If not, then read no further. But if you do, then you need to let these ideas sink in.
Every frum person who answers the way you did, makes the same mistake. The Torah assered the mixing of milk and meat. PERIOD. It did NOT asser the mixing of kosher pareve items that merely resemble meat, with cheese, nor did it asser mixing pareve items that resemble dairy foods with real meat. Trying to argue that Hashem must have had a reason for the issur, makes no logical sense here. His reason was only regarding actual meat and dairy. You are making assumptions that do not exist, and that is how a lot of chumros come to be observed, that have no real basis in halacha.
It's not a matter of loopholes. Hashem told us what the law is. If there is a way to do something without breaking the law, it is not a loophole, it is a different law.
At catered events which have pareve coffee creamer or ice cream, there is often a sign telling that all milk products are pareve. In restaurants, the menu often mentions it. In either of these scenarios, there would be no problem.
Look at the ביאורים in בדי השלחן where he makes an excellent case for requiring it to be in its original packaging, not relying on a sign.
mewhere - I know its muttar, but I still think that its different than eating the udder, where by eating the udder you are merely enjoying the flavor, but by eating milk and meat together its more than just the flavor, "Its milk and meat"
Oomis,
I believe that you misunderstood real-brisker's point, which he later clarified, and eventually reconsidered.
Regarding your statement about chumros, "You are making assumptions that do not exist, and that is how a lot of chumros come to be observed, that have no real basis in halacha.", which chumros are you referring to? Most chumros that I know of have sound basis in halacha, and not keeping (some of) them might be considered a "kula". The examples which come to mind are chodosh/yoshon, cholov "stam", and the local eruv.
realbrisker- I am at a loss trying to understand what you're saying. An udder has milk in it, so it actually is real milk with real meat, it's just not halachic milk. Fake cheese is not real milk or halachic milk. How could real milk with real meat be okay while with fake milk it is not? I think it's time you stop and think that maybe, just maybe, you got this all wrong.
try the feast its good
@daas yochid-
wow, picking up on two of my pet peeves.
1)eating only Cholov Yisroel is a chumra. You have never read R' Moshe's teshuvos on it. I know this for a fact because you said what you said. You probably heard that it was a kula not to keep it, but you wouldn't say that if you actually read the teshuva. Look it up.
2) The local eruv? Are you saying all eruvs are kulas? that would be too crazy to say, so where is local? Please don't tell me NYC. Because I don't want to have to explain that there is a world outside of NY again.
iyhbyu,
Sure, I've read his תשובה. I know he holds it's מותר. Do you know that he writes that he "kept CY"? And that he recommends CY when possible? There's a reason for it; as מסתבר as he considered his סברא, he knew that there's another way to learn. If fact, he later wrote, based on the increased availability and affordability, that one must get CY. It's printed in the back of Rav Binyomin Forst's ספר on הלכות כשרות(the one in Hebrew).
Are you also aware of the fact that many great פוסקים don't agree?
As far as עירובין, most neighborhood עירובין rely on several קולות. The most common ones are the definition of a רשות הרבים (less than ששים רבוא) and שכירת רשות.
I am not chas v'shalom trying to cast aspersions on anyone who relies on any of these קולות (I'm not even claiming that I don't rely on some myself), just pointing out that they are קולות.
I suspect that you use the word קולא differently than I do.
iyhbyu- I agree with you that chumrah/kulah might not be the best term to use when dealing with cholov "stam". However, there is a real machlokes here. The Chazon Ish and Rav Moshe held it was muttar, while the aruch hashulchan and other held it wasn't. Even Rav Moshe said the term baal nefesh yachmir, although admittedly the rest of the teshuva doesn't seem headed in that direction. Is following Rav Moshe over the aruch hashulchan called a kula? Maybe not, but I don't know why that would be your pet peeve. As far as eiruv goes, the term kula is definitely appropriate. For starters, the 1st deah in shulchan aruch does not hold that having less than 600,000 people takes you out of a reshus harabim. The yesh omrim says it does. The standard rule is that when the mechaber brings one deah and then another as a yesh omrim, we pasken like the first one. Almost every single eirvu, including the ones out of brooklyn, rely on this yesh omrim, clearly a kula. In addition, the halacha is that you have to rent from every single non-jew in the eiruv. The standard practice is to get permission from the government. Many poskim take issue with this, and again it is clearly a kula to rely on it. Interestingly, there are cities in e'y where they document every single non-jew in the neighborhood and rent space from them. There may be more kulas and I'm sure daas yochid will enlighten us.
Urban legend has it that R'Yackov Kaminetzky Z'l once directed someone to R'Moshe Z'l to get a psak on a certain matter. The person alledgedly said that he doesn't want any kulos, whereby R' Yackov Z'l is reported to have answered if R' Moshe says it is muttar it is not a kula, that is the halacha.
To say that "eruvin in general" rely on kulos is either ignorant or stupid. The rabbanim who permit its use may disagree with you, but are not lining up kulos to permit its use. Please see how some of the rishnim and achronim explain the concept "koach dihetera adif".
There may be more kulas and I'm sure daas yochid will enlighten us.
Sorry, I'm not as big an expert as I would like to be; you explained the two which I mentioned in more detail than I did. There is the issue of the רמב''ם's עומד מרובה על הפרוץ, but I would consider that a חומרא. Also, the way the צורת הפתח is made often uses קולות, but that depends on the individual עירוב.
To say that "eruvin in general" rely on kulos is either ignorant or stupid.
I don't feel the need to address the content of your post; I did that already.
I will address, however the tone and choice of terminology.
Why is it necessary to adopt a confrontational and degrading approach instead of carrying on a civil discussion? Please, if you disagree, present your arguments; explain why the kulos we mentioned are not really kulos. I'm ready to hear.
Actually, every city eruv relies on a serious kula, and if you can you should not use them.
The mishna berura brings 25 rishonim on the issue of whether a street of 16 amos is a rshus harabim without having 600k people. The split is 13-12; effectively even. Since it is a d'oraisa, it is entirely appropriate to be machmir.
@daas yochid-
I am aware of those things (I read the teshuva). What you are saying has no relevance to whether it's a kula or a chumra. He kept CY: probably because he wanted to be machmir. He recommends a baal nefesh keep CY yes, because he thinks a baal nefesh should be machmir.
I am aware that other poskim do not agree, but...
@newhere-
Kula is the WRONG term, not only not the best term. It's my pet peeve because when I was in elementary school the boys who didn't keep cholov yisroel were made fun of for being mekel and I thought that they were factually correct (though had disgusting middos), than in beis midrash I learned the teshuva, and I found out that it's not true at all.
As for eruvs, notice how you both used most eruvs, and almost all eruvs. That is not the concept of eruv. I'm no expert in eruvin, but I'm pretty sure that everyone agrees to the concept, seeing as there is a whole mesechta in shas about it.
"The split is 13-12; effectively even."
If tonight's football game (lehavdil) ends 13-12 it will be declared a tie...
OK we were talking about Kosher Subway and now we are talking about Cholov Yisroel and Eiruv. Can we stay on topic? I liked the Basur and Chalav argument it was great!
You may feel it is a kula. Those who issued the psak believe it is halacha. Don't follow the psak, but don't belittle the psak by labeling it a kula, which is a not so subtle dig with all its negative connotations.
real brisker is right. it may not be wrong according to the actual halacha- its more if the idea is wrong, as in sensitivities.
(i only read rb's post, so i might have missed the whole pt, but i think i got it right- and if i'm not then just fuggedaboutit)
You may feel it is a kula. Those who issued the psak believe it is halacha. Don't follow the psak, but don't belittle the psak by labeling it a kula, which is a not so subtle dig with all its negative connotations
I do not consider calling something a kula a dig, not even subtly. Every kula has its place, it's to be decided on based on the circumstances. I do not judge anybody negatively if they feel the need to rely on a kula, but recognize it for what it is, so that if and when it's easy to avoid, you will.
iyhbyu,
first of all, I'm just curious about your use of @. Why do you use it before the screen name?
As far as CY is concerned, we're probably arguing semantics, but the bottom line is as I noted earlier, that all else being equal, it's better to use CY, even for someone who is not interested in "chumras". You haven't addressed the later teshuva (the one reprinted in R' Forst's sefer) which makes this point clear.
As far as eiruvin, of course there are eiruvin which are 100% mutar l'chatchila (there are some around even today, i.e. in bungalow colonies); I was addressing the "local eiruv" mentioned by Oomis, which I took to mean our common neighborhood eiruvin.
onegoal,
I beg your forgiveness for continuing the tangent (and thereby hijacking your thread).
Does anybody care to add anything to the discussion about maris ayin of parve cheese burgers (as in fleishig burgers w/ parve cheese)?
To reiterate my opinion; according to most poskim, (the Shach, and many acharonim explaining the R'ma) it would be assur to eat a hamburger with pareve cheese (or even a cold deli sandwich) in a public setting. The only way I see around it is to postulate that parve cheese is more prevalent today than almond milk was in the days of the R'ma, which I find unlikely. Having looked over the Badei Hashulchan, I see that this is his position (and it's likely that I originally formulated my opinion a few years ago when learning the sefer).
One more thing to add; if the parve cheese is melted on to the meat (while on the fire), it would even be assur according to the Shach's understanding of the R'ma. I have no idea how they make it, though.
all this talk makes me want to eat a huge steak and a pareve ice cream for desert
Daas Yochid~ the '@' sign = at... meaning he's speaking 'at' (to) you.
& I'm in the mood for Chinese, but my DH is @ Shovavim 'til late.
mikehall12382,
all this talk makes me want to eat a huge steak and a pareve ice cream for desert
Which is probably מותר according to everyone!
@always here,
Thanks. I guess DH stands for Dear Hubby?
@daas yochid-
That's the most common way to reply to someone on the internet.
Also, I'm no posek, but the people who work for the hashgachas are.
@iyhbyu,
@daas yochid-
That's the most common way to reply to someone on the internet.
Thank you.
Also, I'm no posek, but the people who work for the hashgachas are.
As I mentioned, they do feel that they have something to rely on. But bear two things in mind; if a restaurant can't get a certain hashgocha because of a particular issue, they can keep on searching until they find one which will go along with it, and the Rav Hamachshir is not necessarily my posek or yours. It's important to be educated about the various issues in kashrus so that we can know what to ask our own poskim.
daas yochid~ yes, darling or dear husband :)
Limaskana, Subway tastes good and I can eat there comfortably even according to real brisker and from now on maybe I'll top it off with a parve ice cream.
one\\__//goal
Daas Yochid....
What abbout all the people who use non dairy creamer in their coffee/tea after a fleshich meal?How is this OK?
What abbout all the people who use non dairy creamer in their coffee/tea after a fleshich meal?How is this OK?
A few reasons.
1) Very prevalent (more than cheese), although the בדי השלחן is not certain of this heter.
2) If in private, according to many poskim it's okay if the maris ayin is relating to a d'rabbonon. Many caterers only serve non-dairy creamer in the original packaging since this heter does not apply in a public setting.
3) The artificial dairy is not actually mixed with the meat as it is in the case of meat in almond milk (and Subway sandwiches). This is my own distinction; I have not seen it in the poskim.
4) If the meat is no longer around (tables were cleared) there would be additional grounds to be lenient.
It's commonplace to leave the container for the non-dairy creamer on the table when serving it after a meat meal, for example, offering coffee at the end of Shabbos lunch with dessert. That way it's known that it is not real milk, as opposed to putting the soy milk, rice milk, whatever, into a creamer.
The use of the term "kula" for a psak you don't agree with is a slap in the face of the Rav who issued the psak. Does R' Menashe Klein think he is "maikel" in hilchos eruvin or does he believe the eruv is 100% kosher? Want to disagree, fine. Don't label others "maikilim".some took me to task for the tone I used. Is a subtle dig any better?
ROB, the problem with the chumros is when people begin to believe the chumrah IS the halacha, and that the kula is clearly an avoidance loophole to get out of doing the REAL halacha (which I know for a fact is the negative connotation several posters in the CR think, when they hear "kula").
I hate to break it to you but in the times of the remo, there was virtually NOTHING artificial.
See בדי השלחן.
Lastly- I have no idea how all of you 'machmirim" are going to explain "koach dehetairah odif". see rashi on that
Where?
What happened to the halocho of stuffing your face with a large portion of food at once?
In my Shulchan Oruch it says that stuffing your face with a sub, shawarma, falafel, or pizza of large proportions is an act of gluttony which must be avoided (except on Shabbos).
This applies no matter which company is making the profit.
I am getting hungry!
It's commonplace to leave the container for the non-dairy creamer on the table when serving it after a meat meal, for example, offering coffee at the end of Shabbos lunch with dessert. That way it's known that it is not real milk, as opposed to putting the soy milk, rice milk, whatever, into a creamer.
And how many people put the container on the table when serving parve "ice cream" after a meat meal? And if the "ice cream" is homemade?
1) Almond milk is not artificial and can be made at home
2) Soy products (including cheese, fake meat etc) are very common nowadays. Maybe not in the corner grocery of Brooklyn, but everywhere else I've ever shopped.
3) I would imagine that if a restaurant has hashgacha and openly states they are a Meat restaurant or a Dairy restaurant, and you see something that may look suspicious, read the menu. Most of them same "fake pepperoni" or "soy cheese."
4) I think this whole topic is interesting but in the vein of looking for trouble.
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