MiddlePath: How did they handle it?
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Levi Aron Wasn't Religious - Ate Non-Kosher (McDonalds)
(94 posts)-
Posted 9 months ago #
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Hacham- They made sure the entire community was notified immediately, and instituted rules that he had, and still has to, abide by, in terms of both public and private places, as well as special guidelines for my own family. I think they dealt with it well.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Middle- dont know how to can deal with it. There are a lot of things I can deal with, but I find it especially tough when parents dont live up to what they should be like
Posted 9 months ago # -
MiddlePath: B"H. So we see that the Rabbonim shlit"a do in fact handle this well, contrary to the frum-bashers comments.
Posted 9 months ago # -
adorable- Yes, it most definitely is tough, and in my father's case, it was even more tough because he still pretends that he's a great father and nothing's wrong.
Hacham- Yes, some Rabbis do handle it well. But I'm sure that some don't. I won't say that the posters here who claim Rabbis don't handle it well are wrong, because maybe they know of Rabbis that actually handle it incorrectly.
Posted 9 months ago # -
MP, I am sorry for you and your tzar. Is your father monitored 24/7?
Posted 9 months ago # -
aries- I know for sure that he was at the beginning. I don't know about now, though. (It's been like 12 years since it came out.) I think he still is, but I can't say for sure.
Posted 9 months ago # -
MP, then the Rabbonim DID NOT do a good job!
Posted 9 months ago # -
I must make a machoah for kovod HaTorah, seeing once again aries consistent and persistent attacks against rabbonim shlita, who do a wonderful job for klal Yisroel - and for that I stand up for them and publicly thank them for a job well done indeed.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Here we go again. If the Man who is a molester is NOT being watched 24/7 and is left to his own devices then it is still possible that he is harming children. As long as the Rabbonim arranged that he was watched 24/7 THEY had control of the situation to some degree. Once they no longer chose to maintain that control they no longer kept the community safe from him and the danger he presents.
If Shlishi chooses to see this as an attack on Rabbonim then he chooses to be blind and ignore what is being said and pointed out. He just chooses as always to ignore the problem and just argue with me. I choose NOT to argue with him just point things out to the rest of the CR.
Rabbonim cannot control these predators. They can try but rarely can they keep up a 24/7 surveillance on them. They can insist that they go to therapy but they can't make therapy work. Statistics prove that therapy does NOT work. Nor can they keep up year after year to make sure that the perpetrator is still going and following the rules they set up for him.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Can someone explain how halacha defines the term "raglayim lidavar"? Is it such an ambiguous term that a Rav is required to determine if a situation meets this definition?
Posted 9 months ago # -
Not according to Rav Eliyashuv. Please google his p'sak and read it for yourself so I don't influence you.
Posted 9 months ago # -
apy: Yes, Rav Elyashev clearly said a Rav is required.
Rav Yosef Eliashiv (Yeschurun 15:642):
Question: In a case where the parents are abusing the children physically the secular law requires that the matter be reported to the police and the secular government might take the children from the parents custody to place them with another family – possibly even a non Jewish family until they can investigate the matter – is it permitted to report the matter to the police when it is known that the child is in fact being abuse?
Answer: The answer to the question is dependent on a number of factors. If the child’s parents are observant of Torah and mitzvos and they have raised the child to be observant then to given the child to a non Jews family or even a secular Jewish family is giving the child over to idolatry. That is because there is no doubt that this will damage the soul of the child even if it is for a short period of time and this will have harmful consequences also on his future upbringing. We also have to evaluate what is meant by abuse since the secular perspective is entirely different than ours. Because of the complexity of the issue every case needs to be evaluated carefully by a talmid chachom who is great in scholarship and fear of heaven.
(emphasis mine)
Posted 9 months ago # -
Shlishi, you have changed the subject from sexual abuse and molestation to parental physical abuse and removing the children from the home (which is also a terrible issue but not the issue under discussion). Is this the way to prove your point, by changing the subject to reflect the answer you are looking for? Obviously everyone can see what you are doing. I'm done trying to have a normal conversation or debate with you.
Posted 9 months ago # -
aries, it is very possible that he is still monitored 24/7. I don't know for sure because I almost never see him. But I do know that the building he lives in is always monitored. I happen to think the Rabbis' guidelines fit the situation, and I think they handled it well when it first came out. He was forced to go to therapy, and as you said, it didn't work, mainly because he refused to see that he had a problem. On a side note, I really don't like discussing something this personal in a thread that just uses it to fuel an argument, so if you want to discuss my situation with me further (and I would love to, because I almost never talk about it), please let it be in a neutral setting.
Posted 9 months ago # -
aries, please don't use middlepath to promote your agenda, especially considering that he specifically said that the rabbonim did a good job as well as he asked you not to use him. As far as Rav Elyashev's teshuvas, he has several on the issue on abuse and molestation, and his other teshuvos too demand that a rov be asked before any action is taken. He could not have been any clearer. And the logic is the same as in the teshuva I quoted above.
Posted 9 months ago # -
shlishi, please don't use me to promote YOUR agenda. Thank you.
Posted 9 months ago # -
According to the statement the Agudah released last week by Rav Avi Shafran, the psak of the gedolim, including Rav Eliashev, that the Agudah bases their position on says that a Rov must be asked on each specific case to determine if the halachic parameters have been met, since the halachic parameters are complex.
Posted 9 months ago # -
There was an incident in Borough park about a month ago and the perp was caught because they parents of the victims called the police
Posted 9 months ago # -
I'm familiar with that incident. He called the police after a big rov advised him to. 1+ for the rabbonim.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Aries,
Please don't make as if you care what Rav Elyashiv says.
THe reality is that if he agrees with you, then you'l qoute hom and if he doesn't. Well you ust have to fight to show him the truth ch"v.
You insist on pushing an agenda that destroys families and children. You insist on ignoring the abundance of evidence that shows how dangerous your positions are.
You also insist on misqouting the Godol Hador when the Rov that Teshuva is written to is alive and well and has told every single person who ever asked that you are wrong.Posted 9 months ago # -
If someone hurts my child, I would:
1) Kill the person myself.
2) Then call the police.
3) Call my Rov to arrange kosher meals for the short amount of time I'll be in prison.Posted 9 months ago # -
A little harsh, but i agree if I ever heard of ANYONE hurting my kids
I WILL call the police FIRST
Posted 9 months ago # -
Shilishi..."Question: In a case where the parents are abusing the children physically....."
Since your statement says that the parents are abusing their children...without a doubt. Then to me this is a matter of life or death and thus everything should be done to remove the children immediately...regardless of where they are placed. The priority is a safe environment. If it's with a secular or even non-Jewish family, then that is what needs to be done...a permanent home will be worked out later...
and Yes, the police should be called, then the Rav. In that order.
Posted 9 months ago # -
anon1m0us, then let's hope no one hurts your child.
I would like to add to my previous post about my father that although the Rabbis did deal with it fine, it could have been done a lot better. I think he could have been reported to the police earlier than he was, and some guidelines that the Rabbis set up at first are more lax now. So while it WAS taken care of, it could have been done better.
And for G-d's sake, everyone, stop all the personal bashing. If you don't like someone's opinion, say so respectfully. I don't care how right you think you are. Stop.
Posted 9 months ago # -
anon1m0us: You would be in prison for a long time in that case (killing), unless it's a death penalty state.
Posted 9 months ago # -
anon1m0us: You would be in prison for a long time in that case (killing)
Yes, you should try to make sure and kill them quickly while you are still really worked up, and then try to get it downgraded to manslaughter.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Ben Levi, you don't know reality from fiction. Because you don't know anything about me, yet you keep speaking as if you do. You have no clue what I hold from Rav Elyashuv and to make such a comment is as ludicrous as everything else in your post.
Do I know you? Do I analyze you or shlishi? Have I commented on either of you personally, what you think or what you hold by? And there is the difference between having a discussion with a normal person and having a discussion with someone who is promoting their own agenda and lies. That also ties in with the other thread about labeling and Holier than thou assumptions.
Middlepath, lets not talk about your father in particular. If you choose to bring it on another thread that will be your choice. Let's talk in general terms. If Rabbonim assign someone to supervise or shadow a molester 24/7 then they are protecting the public from him. In that case, they can be sure he will not harm anyone. He can not go to the mikveh, he cannot go to the children's park. He cannot start up with a child on the street. He has someone by he side 24/7 that he walks with and talks to so he can do no harm. There is no question about this.
Therapy doesn't work because as you said he does not wish to admit or own up to what he is doing, and he does not have control over his impulses. But if he is never alone and cannot act on his impulses there is less of a chance of danger. A door man or 24 hour surveillance in the building does not monitor what any perpetrator does outside the building or to anyone that wanders into one's home. So as you said the Rabbonim could have handled it better and they do become lax as the years pass.
Posted 9 months ago # -
aries, I happen to know that he is banned from every Jewish institution in the city, except for one shul where he can daven at, and people are always on the lookout for him. But concerning what goes on in the streets, I don't know if anyone is watching him then.
And when I said that everyone here should stop personally bashing each other, I wasn't referring to you. I think you were respectful in your responses (your last one was a bit edgier, though), and I happen to agree with you. Please forgive me if it looked like I was attacking you.Posted 9 months ago # -
aries, You should call Rav Feivel Cohen yourself and see Ben Levi is 100% correct. Rav Feivel is who Rav Elyashev wrote the letter/psak to. Why does your anti-rabbonim agenda blind you from acknowledging the good of the rabbonim?
Posted 9 months ago # -
I dont mean to pry, but how could someone be banned from every shul in NYC?
Is it on the honor system?
I am assuming most people dont know who he is (I am assuming he is not a household name) . Either his name or his face. Ive never heard of a list of people banned from Shuls and Ive never seen a Rabbi kick someone out.
Shuls in Brooklyn have very little to do with Shuls in Manhattan who have very little to do with Shuls in Queens or Far Rockaway
Posted 9 months ago # -
zahavsdad, my father doesn't live in New York. He lives in a city where it is possible to ban him from every shul, and everyone knows who he is, and more importantly, what he is.
Posted 9 months ago # -
MP, not at all. I have said my peace and I will choose to just ignore them from here on in. They have a right to their opinion as I have said all along but they don't have a right to judge me or tell me what I think, what I know or what I do. Obviously I don't need them to tell me what to do or who I should speak to as they don't know where I have been, whom I have spoken to and what I have seen. I have a lists of people they can speak to as well which I am NOT publishing. As I said they will think what they choose and do what they choose. I can't control anyone but myself and I can't change other people. Everyone has bechira and it is up to them to make the necessary changes in themselves to learn and grow as you yourself learn every day.
What I am wondering though is if Ben Levi and Shlishi are one in the same.
Posted 9 months ago # -
It appears that being religious wasn't Levi Aron's biggest sin. The taking of an innocent life trumps what he did or didn't eat.
Posted 9 months ago # -
In NY that would never work.
I cant see the Satmar of Williamsburg , Chabad of Crown heights, Yeshivish of Flatbush and Far Rockaway , Modern of Queens all agreeing to ban someone and people would have to know who they were
Posted 9 months ago # -
ZD, I agree, in NY it would never work. It must be in a smaller community.
Posted 9 months ago # -
see rabbi grlyks outlook in the mishpacha magazine
i quote a paragraphI suppose that Jews everywhere are waiting anxiously to hear what the psychiatrists have to say about these confessed murderers. There is a deep, hidden desire in our hearts to hear the word that will release us: these killers are psychopaths, incurably sick dregs of society. Then we would feel better. After all, every society has a few crazy elements whose actions aren't governed by the social norms. In a word, we’re blameless. The criminals have been caught, and the rest of us, saddened and shocked though we are, can go on with our normal routine. The underpinnings of our community are still firmly in place, and everything’s all right with us.
Or is it?
read full here
http://mishpacha.com/Browse/Article/1300/If-Theyre-Not--Sick-Were-All-KillersPosted 9 months ago # -
On this Tisha B'av when frankly it can be tough to mourn. Honestly most of us have good lives here, We are free to practice our religion in any way we want. We are free of the poverty of previous generations, In fact life is pretty good here.
Its a true sign we are in Galus that the various communities of NYC cannot agree on ANYTHING even to expel such a personPosted 9 months ago # -
In fact life is pretty good here probably better than it was during the Bais Hamigdosh
You're KIDDING zhavasdad, are you not!?!?
Posted 9 months ago # -
I think what we would all like to hear is that he finally pleaded guilty, told the whole entire truth, how he tricked Leiby and was either jailed for life or committed to an insane asylum for life so he can never hurt anyone ever again.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Why would he plead guilty if he's going to get life in jail anyways?
Posted 9 months ago # -
Shlishi/Ben levi/ Joseph -whomever you are -"As far as Rav Elyashev's teshuvas, he has several on the issue on abuse and molestation, and his other teshuvos too demand that a rov be asked before any action is taken."
If you have such a Teshuva, copy and post it here. It has to be on molestation, not just abuse. If you don't have one, then Aries is 100% correct and you are the one who is being Mevazeh Gedolim by twisting their words.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Shein, because if he pled guilty there would not be a dragged out trial where all the morbid and tragic details would come out. If he pled guilty he would be sentenced by the judge without a trial and then we wouldn't have to hear about him ever again.
Posted 9 months ago # -
That's true aries, but what incentive does he have to plead guilty?
Posted 9 months ago #
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