Makeup for 3-day Yom Tov

Home Coffeeroom Yom Tov Makeup for 3-day Yom Tov

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  • #592481

    What can you do over a 3-day yom tov if you hold that Shabbos Makeup is not permitted?

    I’m thinking of using loose powder this time, since it’s the same thing as baby powder that we’re allowed to use, texture-wise. Is this worth asking about?

    I also have used Forever Makeup, which lasts longer than anything else but isn’t enough for a 3-day Yom Tov.

    Any advice would be great!

  • #698932

    Helpful
    Member

    I don’t know the answer to your question, but want to remind that makeup is only for married women (or before a date) for in the home.

  • #698933

    asinburt
    Participant

    Dear Helpful-

    This is a personal opinion, not a halacha. Furthermore, your response does very little to answer the question posed. If there is an answer out there to this very good question, I sure would like to hear it. One should look their best L’kavod Shabbos and Yom Tov.

  • #698934

    Ben Torah
    Participant

    The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics, and that a women should care about her appearance for the purposes of not being repulsive to her husband.

  • #698935

    There are many many reasons different people need to wear makeup. Let’s stay on topic.

  • #698936

    Thank you Asinburt. An answer to this question would also help many women avoid being mechallel shabbos and yom tov – I know I look for every kulah in this area and struggle with it, because it’s so hard when you’re in shiduchim to not feel pressured to always look your best.

  • #698937

    Ben Torah
    Participant

    Its okay to wear makeup ON a date. There isn’t a justification to wear it all the time because you are in shidduchim.

  • #698938

    Ben Torah et al. – It’s very easy for a man to say that, since you don’t have the problem. Women feel better when they look better and not looking good can really disturb my simcha. Let me hear from a woman whose skin doesn’t always look perfect. I really don’t want this to be about the problem, but finding a solution.

  • #698939

    Brooklyn Yenta
    Participant

    helpful and bentorah, you have got to be kidding. there is no excuse to be metzaer the klal by NOT wearing a bit of makeup. that’s not to say that anyone should be overdoing it, but just a bit for your own self respect. tasteful & classy is the way to go.

  • #698940

    Sister Bear
    Member

    If you sleep staring up at the ceiling it stays on for longer. I don’t know if for the whole 3 days. I know people who did it till the second day but I didn’t see them on the 3rd day so I don’t know if it still worked.

    Have a good Yom Tov and good luck!

  • #698941

    Brooklyn Yenta
    Participant

    oh, and my advice about the actual QUESTION: use concealer under eyeshadow, waterproof liquid eyeliner & mascara, and for lips use a few layers of lipfinity, outlast, or superstay (different companies). and btw, when you see a post like this, frum men should STAY AWAY!

  • #698942

    lol…
    Member

    I always spray my face with hairspray. I know it sounds gross, but it REALLY works, everyone always tells me that I look like I just applied it.

  • #698943

    sorta the same thing-

    hair for a unmarried woman for a three day yuntif

    what would you do with curly frizzy hair so it still looks nice for shabbos?

    🙁

  • #698944

    BrooklynYenta- thank you. re lipstick – olive oil helps a bit.

    sisterbear: i’ve done that but find it really stressful.

    lol: That’s a great and creative solution! Unfortunately those of us with sensitive skin can’t risk that… I’m going to try that on a day that is not Yom Tov to see what happens, it sounds like a great idea.

  • #698945

    what is left: I have a friend with curly frizzy hair that always looks good and not frizzy, she told me she puts in mousse and makes it curly on purpose. If you embrace the curls they’re easier to deal with than if you are trying to straighten it.

  • #698946

    oomis
    Member

    “The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics,”

    And here I was thinking all these years that is was because of sinas chinam! Or were Kamtza and Bar Kamtza women…?

    My HELPFUL answer about this question is to layer your makeup very carefully before yom tov, put concealer on, then, makeup foundation, then powder to set it. For eyes, use a cream-based shadow, then powder in the same color over it (a couple of layers, and use a neutral shade), then there is a lash-tint by Revlon (I think) that stays on a couple of days, and liner should be layered on a few times. The first night will look overly-done maybe, but it will wear away. And if you CAN sleep face up (I can’t), it will stay on longer. Blush should also be cream, then blush powder and loose powder over all. For lips, use a good lipliner to actually color in your lips, then a long-lasting liptint or CoverGirl Outlast type lip color over that, followed by lipstick. Try to eat carefully. Best to use as neutral a color as looks good on you.

  • #698947

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Model In A Bottle (!!!) The best product I have ever tried for keeping on makeup (but I have easy skin B”H). Its kinda like lip-chick but for your whole face, it comes in a spray bottle. I’ve always ordered it online, not sure if stores sell it…

    Also, whatever you can get a primer for, get it and use it! It may be a bit pricey but it works and it is well worth it for 3 day Yom Tovs. (Sephora carries everything)

    3 LAYERS! you may look like a clown the first nite, you will be glad the rest of Y”T.

    Hope this helps, Good Yom Tov!

  • #698948

    Ben Torah
    Participant

    You can look good without makeup, just like Bais Yaakov girls do.

  • #698949

    First of all, like many already said I sleep face up even though I end up having a restless night. Also, the first night I coat myself until I look like a clown and eventually it wears off. I put on layers and layers of everything. Also when putting in and taking out contacts, try not to hold open your eye so your mascara, eye liner and eye shadow don’t mess up. When drinking water or eating soup try to keep your lips from getting wet or oily because it will come right off. That’s what I do and anyways, by the third day of yom tov nobody expects you to look too great. For all those who asked about the hair, don’t touch it too much and put in baby powder every night to keep it from getting oily.

  • #698950

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Make aliyah, so at most you would only have to worry about it if Rosh Hashana comes out on Thursday/Friday.

  • #698951

    emoticon613
    Member

    ben torah: you’re a guy, cannot understand girls, etc.

    to actually answer what you said, i’m considered very very high level bais yaakov, yeshivishe, whatever, and i wear make-up. and yes, i like looking pretty, i feel better that way. when i know i’m coming in contact with boys (not for a date) i tone it down a bit – but i wear make-up.

    and my rebbetzin wears make-up.

    obviously not all those creams and powders and what have you that oomis was talking about (btw oomis, that sounded to me a bit over the top, could be i’m wrong.), but a woman does not want to look ‘schluchy’ no matter where and what stage of life she’s in.

    and i’ll agree with you that a woman/girl can look pretty without make-up, but MOST of us, including shpitz bais yaakov girls, are not (yet) and maybe never will be, on that level.

    so please.

    EDITED

  • #698952

    oomis
    Member

    “You can look good without makeup, just like Bais Yaakov girls do”

    And many of those BY girls need the help of makeup, or they look washed out. The makeup I was talking about stays on pretty well. The cream stuff helps the powder to adhere better, and it wears away little by little, so it really stays for a long time. yes, the first nioght you might look a little overdone, but it’s worth it for the next day.

  • #698953

    dunno
    Member

    Baby powder works on dark hair? Doesn’t it leave it looking whitish?

  • #698954

    smartcookie
    Member

    Sacrilege-

    I bought model in a bottle and was very disappointed. I was wondering if you don’t have this problem:

    After a few hrs, my makeup wears off, and only the parts of my face that got spritzed from the spray, end up staying with makeup.

    I do try to spray all over, but I still end up with blotches of makeup on the next day, and the rest of my makeup is shvitzed away.

  • #698955

    dunno-yeah, happened to me this y”t. I ask someone to brush off my hair if it still looks gray in the morning but usually unless I put in toooonz it looks fine.

  • #698956

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Smartcookie- the trick is to do it from arms length to ensure that you get an even mist that evenly coats your whole face (also, I do every possible spot, more than once 😉 )

    mischeifmaker – there is a product called Oscar Blandi Dry Shampoo. It is similar to baby powder but it doesnt make your hair grey and it smells great and since its shampoo it freshen your hair as well.

  • #698957

    kapusta
    Participant

    I’m also a single girl and can’t suggest too much about makeup cuz my “philosophy” is “less is more”. But on the three day thing, doesn’t everyone realize that on the third day of a three day Yom Tov, most people, unless someone was given supernatural hair and skin, will not look their best?! Someone once told me when a person stains an outfit on Shabbos, they should not think of it as a stain but rather like a badge of honor. They spilled something on themselves, has a yetzer hara to clean it, but they overcame it! Same thing with this, do what you can in advance to make the makeup last, but bottom line, it probably wont. And assuming that it wont, go out with a big smile on your face because even though your face might not look perfect, you are doing just what you’re supposed to be.

    (again, I am not from the biggest make up users, but I definitely understand the want to look good.)

    *kapusta*

  • #698959

    smartcookie
    Member

    Thanks sacrilege- will try that. I usually do it from much closer than arms length.

  • #698960

    Sister Bear
    Member

    My friend just told me about the spray (they sell it in Sephora) that keeps your make-up on. Does it really work? Can you re-apply it after the 20 hrs. and it’ll still work? Are you able to put it on, on Shabbos or Yom Tov.

    But yeah, by the third day, most people don’t look their best in terms on make-up and hair.

  • #698961

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Smartcookie – your welcome. I hope that helps. I think when its done to close it comes out like a stream instead of a mist and it isnt even and therefore seals your makeup blotchy.

  • #698962

    mw13
    Participant

    BenTorah:

    “Its okay to wear makeup ON a date. There isn’t a justification to wear it all the time because you are in shidduchim.”

    Who says wearing makeup requires a “justification”?

    oomis1105:

    “”The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics,”

    And here I was thinking all these years that is was because of sinas chinam! Or were Kamtza and Bar Kamtza women…?”

    Well apparently, the Gemora says there was more than one reason. Not sure why this got such a sarcastic reaction from you…

    “”You can look good without makeup, just like Bais Yaakov girls do”

    And many of those BY girls need the help of makeup, or they look washed out.”

    No, they don’t need makeup, because their self-confidence is at the point where they don’t feel the need to wear it. It’s those who feel “schluchy” (whatever that means) without makeup who need to wear it to feel good about themselves.

  • #698963

    Miriam
    Member

    Why would anyone want to wear make-up that will last 3 days? It is so unhealthy and bad for your skin.

  • #698964

    smartcookie
    Member

    Saftala- when you do it once or twice a year (on a three day yom tov), its OK.

  • #698966

    thanx sacrilege but how do you use it? You leave it in and it takes out the oil?

  • #698967

    Let’s face it, 3 days will kill anyone’s face. But waterproof Mabelline masquera does work somewhat. This past week I put on a deep color lipstick erev Yom Tov, followed by gloss/sealer, and it still was off by the end of the seudah. Oh well, I certainly wasn’t alone.

  • #698969

    dunno
    Member

    Sacrilege:

    What texture is the Oscar Blandi Dry Shampoo? You’re allowed to put it on on Shabbos/Yom Tov? It doesn’t ruin blow dried hair?

  • #698970

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Mischeifmaker – honestly I am not a hundred percent sure, the powder varietal is kind of like a course powder, and you rub it in at the scalp and then – if you need it – move downwards on the actual hair. My guess would be that the powder absorbs the oil and because its actual “dry shampoo” when you rub it in it prob activates and freshens up.

    Dunno – It comes in 2 forms, 1 is a powder and 1 is a spray. I have the powder form, I think you would have to ask your LOR if it is ok for you to use. I have friends/family members alot more yeshivish/machmir than I who use it but I stopped just because I felt weird using it on Shabbos….

  • #698971

    dunno
    Member

    Any idea which works better – spray or powder? Thanks for your help.

  • #698973

    Thank you everyone for all the helpful suggestions! Now I’m excited for another yom tov just to try them out!

    What about Shabbos makeup – does anyone use that?

  • #698974

    -lol

    does your face get all sticky ang grose when u hairspray your hair???? or does it get oily??

    *i put a slip on my pillow and it prevents your make up from coming off when u sleep….i found that that helpd a lot!!!!!!

  • #698975

    Personally, I’d be terrified to spray hairspray on my face. Couldn’t it be very dangerous if it gets in your eyes?

  • #698976

    awob: you keep ur eyes closed.

    I’d like to try the Model in a Bottle stuff before that, though… it seems safer. But if the ingredients are the same as hairspray than why not?

  • #698977

    Sacrilege
    Member

    pascha – I’ve heard about shabbos makeup… My Rebbi’s in High School weren’t big fans so I’ve never touched the stuff but again ask your LOR.

    Actually when the suggestion of hairspray came up, it kind of made sense. It smells similar to the Model In A Bottle and for the first few seconds it does burn a little. I wonder if its not the same stuff, hmmmm…

  • #698978

    oomis
    Member

    “Well apparently, the Gemora says there was more than one reason. Not sure why this got such a sarcastic reaction from you…”

    Really? Maybe because I am tired of all the ills of Klal Yisroel continuously being attributed to something that WOMEN have done. Every bad thing that happens apparently is because of something women are or are not doing. I don’t buy it. Men need to take responsibility for their actions that are delaying Mashiach from coming.

    The Gemarah clearly states that it was sinas chinam that was responsible for the Churban. To make a moral equivalency between the wearing of cosmetics by womem (whose nature is to want to wear cosmetics to look pretty)with the extreme evil of sinas chinam, is unfair, to say the least. Even if a rov in the Gemarah said such a thing about women, I would rather be in a roomful of women wearing a lot of makeup, than with even one nasty-minded person.

    Somehow, in my heart I believe Hashem cares much less about lipstick, than people’s interactions. The many halachos we have referring to mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro would seem to validate the idea that He very much cares about people who are mean to each other, enough to have destroyed our B”HM because of those actions.

  • #698979

    so right
    Member

    oomis: It is the Gemorah who makes that moral equivalence of sinas chinam and too much cosmetics both bringing about the churban bais hamikdash.

    Are you equally perturbed that the Torah blames women for bringing death to the world?

  • #698980

    sacrilege: That’s so interesting. Does Model in a bottle say the ingredients, maybe we can find out now? Could you post the ingredients?

    so right:

    The difference is what you focus on. Yeshaya HaNavi describes the lack of modesty in women that led to the churban. Men are also blamed, for marrying non-Jewish women.

    As a man, you can choose to focus on what YOU have to work on – ie, sinas chinam, shmiras einayim, limud Torah, and bring Moshiach. You can also make sure your wife and children know what is right. Or, you can just say that women are to blame, and excuse yourself from any responsibility.

    Chazal also say that women reflect men. It’s your responsibility to make sure that what we reflect is positive!! If you are the sun and we are the moon, who is to blame when the moon isn’t so lichtig?

  • #698981

    emoticon613
    Member

    oomis: i don’t know that Hashem ‘cares’ more about one thing than another. eilu v’eilu divrei Elokim chayim – (i’m making this interpretation up) Hashem doesn’t allow us to hate people for no reason, and also doesn’t allow us to be untzniusdig. now the question that remains is really not what Hashem cares about (b/c we really don’t know and can’t say), but if the lipstick is tznius or not.

    but “it is the Gemorah who makes that moral equivalence of sinas chinam and too much csmetcs both bringing about the churban bais hamikdash”

    so i guess there’s your answer.

    i just like playing devil’s advocate. 🙂

  • #698982

    bubbeh
    Participant

    dont equate looking shluchy with being more religious or more bais yakov. if there is a permissible way to apply makeup – then its like anything else for which we find heteirim. it’s individual’s choice to avail oneself.

    all the ideas for layering it on thick HELPS. liquid eye-liner OVER the crayon and lip liner on the entire lip under whatever else.while the lips will fade daily – the eye make-up stays. USE A STRAW for drinks and soup – helps immensely.

    when girls are our guests -we put staws at their settings!

    and yes – let’s concentrate on bein adom lechaveiro – thats the key to all.why were the dor hambul destroyed and the dor haflaga saved? cuz even though dor haflaga wanted to chas veshalom make a milchemes Hashem -they had achdus. DOr hamabul on the other hand -had no such awful goal- but their bein adam lechaveiro was found disgusting by Hashem.

    If someone is looking for a “kosher” way to apply or keep make-up and look presentable for a three-day yom tov – BE PROUD!

  • #698983

    Bubbeh: dont equate looking shluchy with being more religious or more bais yakov.


    thank you. “Ra’uyin l’bnei Yisrael l’hiyos na’im” as Rashi says – “It is fitting that Bnei Yisrael should be pleasant looking”.

  • #698984

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Am I the only person around that doesn’t use any makeup?

  • #698985

    Sacrilege
    Member

    SJS – no make up EVER?

    Prolly in the minority…

    I know of two people, My Grandmother a”h and a girl in my High School class.

  • #698986

    My mother never needed makeup. She told me that until she was older, she thought the purpose of makeup was to change skin color. Some people really don’t need it, but most of us are not that fortunate.

  • #698987

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I wore makeup to my wedding, and immediate family weddings. That’s it. Every once in a while, I’ll put on a light colored lipstick (usually a color that matches my lips to moisturize for chapped lips).

    But I’m so naturally beautiful LOL (j/k for anyone who thinks this is serious).

  • #698988

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Either way makeup is supposed to enhance not be the main focus. If you are um, not pretty no amount of makeup is going to help 😉

    Pascha – I am not ignoring your request, I am at work, er um, pretending to work, so when I get home I’ll be glad to post the ingredients.

  • #698989

    Thanks sacrilege. I’m at work too, part of my job is posting on YWN while pretending to listen to a lecture that is way too many hours long. At least the latter. 🙂

  • #698990

    mw13
    Participant

    oomis1105:

    “”Well apparently, the Gemora says there was more than one reason. Not sure why this got such a sarcastic reaction from you…”

    Really? Maybe because I am tired of all the ills of Klal Yisroel continuously being attributed to something that WOMEN have done. Every bad thing that happens apparently is because of something women are or are not doing.”

    First of all, nobody here made this up, it’s a Gemora. If you’re tired of the Gemora blaming women, take it up with Hashem, not us.

    Second, precisely which “ills of Klal Yisroel” are “continuously being attributed to something that WOMEN have done”?

    “Men need to take responsibility for their actions that are delaying Mashiach from coming.”

    Agreed, but so do women. This isn’t a one-way street in either direction.

    “The Gemarah clearly states that it was sinas chinam that was responsible for the Churban.”

    The Gemora also apparently states that women wearing too much cosmetics was the reason for the Churban. You can’t pick and choose.

    “To make a moral equivalency between the wearing of cosmetics by womem…”

    The Gemora says the problem was women wearing too much cosmetics, not that women should never wear cosmetics at all.

    “…with the extreme evil of sinas chinam, is unfair, to say the least.”

    Are you calling the Gemora “unfair, to say the least”? If you have a problem with the Gemora, the problem is with you, not the Gemora.

    “The many halachos we have referring to mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro would seem to validate the idea that He very much cares about people who are mean to each other”

    And the many halachos about tzniyus would seem to validate the idea that He very much cares about how women dress. I’m not sure why you think the two are mutually exclusive. And again, you can’t pick and choose.

    SJSinNYC: No, I don’t either 🙂

  • #698991

    mw13: Tznius for men is mentioned in the Torah, for women it is learned out.

    Yeshaya HaNavi describes the lack of modesty in women that led to the churban. Men are also blamed, for marrying non-Jewish women.

    A man can choose to focus on what he has to work on – ie, sinas chinam, shmiras einayim, limud Torah, chesed etc. You can also make sure your wife and children know what is right. Or, you can just say that women are to blame for Moshiach’s delay, and excuse yourself from any responsibility.

    Chazal also say that women reflect men. It’s your responsibility to make sure that what we reflect is positive!! If you are the sun and we are the moon, who is to blame when the moon isn’t so lichtig?

  • #698992

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Pascha –

    “I’m at work too, part of my job is posting on YWN while pretending to listen to a lecture that is way too many hours long. At least the latter. :)”

    LOL. I think we have a similar work ethic 😉

    I dont have any clients coming in today so its all paper work thats going something like: E-file a petition, check YWN, E-file a petition, check YWN and repeat….

  • #698993

    mw13
    Participant

    “A man can choose to focus on what he has to work on – ie, sinas chinam, shmiras einayim, limud Torah, chesed etc. You can also make sure your wife and children know what is right. Or, you can just say that women are to blame for Moshiach’s delay, and excuse yourself from any responsibility.”

    Of course men must work on their stuff. As I said before, this isn’t a one-way street in either direction.

    That said:

    A woman can choose to focus on what she has to work on – ie, tzniyus, chinuch, shalom bayis, chesed etc. You can also make sure your husband and children are doing what is right. Or, you can just say that men are to blame for Moshiach’s delay, and excuse yourself from any responsibility. Again, this a two-way street.

    “Chazal also say that women reflect men. It’s your responsibility to make sure that what we reflect is positive!! If you are the sun and we are the moon, who is to blame when the moon isn’t so lichtig?”

    So now it’s our problem if you misbehave? Wow. And some complain everything is blamed on the women…

    I’m not sure exactly what that chazal means (which shouldn’t come as a suprise seeing as I’ve never heard it before), but I highly doubt it means that women have no bechira. As such, women are just as responsible for their actions as men are for theirs.

  • #698994

    oomis
    Member

    i just like playing devil’s advocate. 🙂

    And you do it SO well!!!! 🙂

    Lipstick really is not the issue for me – it’s mroe a case of men (and maybe it was only one man, I don’t know Gemarah)whose opinion it is that women wear too much makeup. But to say the Beis Hamikdash was DESTROYED and we went into exile for that – well, I cannot accept that. If you want to say that women were not tzniusdig,there are many women who wear NO makeup at all who are extremely untzniusdig (ever hear of Woodstock???). I believe with all my heart that the RS”O wants us to follow His laws, to bring about a tikkun olam. I believe that so many of those laws specify actions between Man and Man, because those actions (and not which chassidishe shechitah you follow, or whether or not you wear a black hat, or if women wear cosmetics)are the ones which affect whether or not we are worthy to see Bayis Shlishi.

    People on this forum may disagree with me, as is their right, but sof kol sof, the B”HM was destroyed PRIMARILY because of people’s unmenschlech interactions with each other. And for all the men who want to lay the tragedies of the world at the feet of women, perhaps they should look at themselves as well, and see who it is in the vast majority, who is cheating each other in business, cheating on their taxes. Probably not the women. OK, my rant is done. For now. 🙂

  • #698995

    myfriend
    Member

    “But to say the Beis Hamikdash was DESTROYED and we went into exile for that – well, I cannot accept that.”

    oomis, you are treading on very thin ice going against the Gemorah.

    BTW, dresing with proper tznius IS a matter of mentchlichkeit and bein adom l’chaveiro. Think about that.

  • #698996

    Absolutely it’s a two-way street. People implied that I am stopping Moshiach from coming by wearing makeup. Can you see why this would bother me?

    Oomis, in response, brought up a very relevant point- it often feels that we are constantly being lectured on tznius, while men don’t run ANY campaigns for sinas chinam, etc. How many kol koreis are there that apply to men and not women vs the other way? Let us learn the halachos that apply to us and we will follow it. There are 613 mitzvos and tznius is not one of them.

    I LOVE tznius, it always spoke to me and I have both taught it and learned it, and be’ezras Hashem practice it. This is not a personal thing. But I am bothered by the implications of this, not only on YWN, but from my male siblings who BH are good boys, encouraging an attitude of boys who just have to be “good enough” while women have to change and not focusing on working on themselves. As you very aptly said, it’s a two-way street.

    Obviously we all have free choice. The point here is to look at MY free choice – not judge that of the other person’s. I am not going to lecture you on how many hours a day you should learn. Don’t lecture women on tznius and claim they are not bringing Moshiach because they want to look good on Yom Tov.

    Thank you.

    *tries very hard to remain calm*

  • #698997

    mw13
    Participant

    oomis1105:

    “i just like playing devil’s advocate. 🙂

    And you do it SO well!!!! :)”

    Huh? Was that to me?

    “to say the Beis Hamikdash was DESTROYED and we went into exile for that – well, I cannot accept that.”

    I’m sorry: you “cannot accept” what an Amora said?! I’m sorry, I thought we were confining the parameters of this debate to those of the basic beliefs of Yiddishkeit.

    “I believe with all my heart that the RS”O wants us to follow His laws, to bring about a tikkun olam.”

    Yes, and many of those laws involve tzniyus. You still can’t pick and chose.

    “And for all the men who want to lay the tragedies of the world at the feet of women,”

    Huh? Who’s doing that? Care to name even one instance of this happening?

    “perhaps they should look at themselves as well, and see who it is in the vast majority, who is cheating each other in business, cheating on their taxes. Probably not the women.”

    Of course, women never do anything wrong. Only men. Got it. So the problem is that the men think it’s all the women’s fault, but really it’s all the men’s fault.

    And to think I managed to type that with a straight face.

    Perhaps certain women in this forum who “want to lay the tragedies of the world at the feet of men” should similarly look into the mirror and see if they’re quite so perfect themselves.

  • #698998

    Sacrilege
    Member

    I am not going to get heavily involved in this conflict. All I can say is that when you quote plain text Gemara like that it usually isnt so simplistic. I am the furthest thing from a Talmudic scholar (if you knew me you would realize how truly funny I – in reference to myself – and Talmudic scholar truly was when placed in the same sentence) that being said I am quite sure there are Meforshim who expound on the statement of the BHMK being destroyed because of excessive cosmetics.

  • #698999

    mw13
    Participant

    pascha bchochma:

    “Absolutely it’s a two-way street. People implied that I am stopping Moshiach from coming by wearing makeup. Can you see why this would bother me?”

    Of course I do. However, I still have the right to take issue with you claiming men are responsible for women’s mistakes.

    “But I am bothered by the implications of this, not only on YWN, but from my male siblings who BH are good boys, encouraging an attitude of boys who just have to be “good enough” while women have to change and not focusing on working on themselves.”

    Yes, we all know how girls are expected to learn for 9 hours a day from 11th or 12th grade until three or four years after high school, while boys spend maybe half that amount of time in school, both in hours per day and in total amount of years… oh wait! It’s the other way around! Silly me.

    Seriously speaking, boys have things that they get pressured on too. Nobody got off easy in this world, as green as the grass on the other side may seem.

    “*tries very hard to remain calm*”

    I wish I was so successful 🙂

  • #699000

    Sacrilege
    Member

    MW13-

    “Yes, we all know how girls are expected to learn for 9 hours a day from 11th or 12th grade until three or four years after high school, while boys spend maybe half that amount of time in school, both in hours per day and in total amount of years… oh wait! It’s the other way around! Silly me.”

    I actually agree with you on this. I think there is a greater pressure on boys to be “good”. What constitutes a “good” boy? Someone who is learning. The Irony of it is that the guys who I have dated that weren’t learning (full time/ long term that is) by in large far surpassed the “good” boys in Middos.

    (p.s. I think you coulve made the same point without being condescending)

  • #699002

    mw13
    Participant

    Sacrilege: I’m glad you agree. That said, there’s plenty of good reasons guys should be learning.

    “I think you coulve made the same point without being condescending”

    Yeah, I probably could’ve, but it comes across much better this way.

  • #699003

    Sacrilege
    Member

    mw13 – clearly Tikkun Hamiddos isn’t one of them.

    Two can play this game.

  • #699004

    mw13
    Participant

    Sacrilege: Never said it was. And I’m not entirely sure what “game” you’re referring to.

    On re-reading my previous comment, I realized that Sacrilege was right, I was overly condensing. pascha bchochma, I apologize.

  • #699005

    blinky
    Participant

    “What about Shabbos makeup – does anyone use that?”

    I happen to use the blush from reflections, and so far no complaints. You just have to make sure your face doesn’t have any residue from any other makeup as well as the brush that you use to apply it.

  • #699006

    Sacrilege
    Member

    mw13 – now that your playing nice no need for any other games 😉

  • #699007

    smartcookie
    Member

    Some people, like myself, MUST wear makeup at all times and will not leave their homes without light makeup. That is because our skin is really not so great.

    This type of makeup is absolutely not attractive, it just looks very natural and makes me look plain sweet!

    If you’re wearing heavy makeup, especially eye makeup, then it is a problem.

  • #699008

    mw: pascha bchochma:

    Of course I do. However, I still have the right to take issue with you claiming men are responsible for women’s mistakes.


    Just to clarify: the sun / moon comment was said tongue in cheek. Zeh l’umas zeh, I figured that if you can blame me with cherry-picked chazals for the evils of the world, I can throw it right back at you. But, it was tongue in cheek. You can argue back that woman caused the first sin, etc. I’m not giving you ideas, I have more such pointless arguments up my sleeve.

    Yes, we all know how girls are expected to learn for 9 hours a day from 11th or 12th grade until three or four years after high school, while boys spend maybe half that amount of time in school, both in hours per day and in total amount of years… oh wait! It’s the other way around! Silly me.


    Yes, we all know how girls are expected to somehow be a mother, wife, and hard worker who earns enough to support a family, unless lucky enough to have rich parents…

    Seriously speaking, boys have things that they get pressured on too. Nobody got off easy in this world, as green as the grass on the other side may seem.


    You are right here. We have different nisyonos. I guess my point here is that we should each work on our own nisyonos, instead of trying to tell others what they think they should be doing.

    I wish I was so successful 🙂


    Thanks. I know that you didn’t mean to be as condescending as you sounded, and I appreciate your expressing your point of view and not giving up explaining yourself when the going got tough.

  • #699009

    nachas
    Member

    This past yom tov I had my eyes professionally done. It was very thick the first day but by the third day it still looked great I did get a lot of compliments and I had to explain to some people that I did not put on makeup on yom tov. For foundation and blush I did it myself and just put on a few layers and I bought lipstick that stays on for a few days. I did have to be careful eating and I slept sitting up with several pillows but by the third day it still looked good and yes by the end of yom tov I couldnt wait to scrub my face but I would do it again.

  • #699010

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Only for you Pascha –

    SD Alchahol 40B, Purified Water, Butylene Glycol, Methyl Perfluorobutyl Etllyl, Acrylates/Outacrylamide, Copolymer, Lavandula Angustifollia Lavender Extract, Aloe Barbadensis Gel (Aloe Vera) Biosaccheride Gum-1, Polysorbate 20, Propylapaarben, Methylaparaben.

    Personally, I think the purified water makes all the difference 😉

  • #699011

    mosherose
    Member

    Even married woman shouldnt wear make up all the time for her husband alone. We see that takanos were made so that men shouldnt be always aitzel neshosaihem ketarnegol. Once in a while is one thing but not all the time – even just for her husband.

  • #699012

    sacrilege: thank you! You’re the best! It is indeed very similar to hairspray ingredients. For example, here are the ingredients for Nirvana witch hazel hairspray:

    Sd Alcohol 40-B, Purified Water, Va/Crotonates/Vinyl Neodecanoate Copolymer, Octylacrylamide/Acrylates/Butylaminoethyl Methacrylate Copolymer Witch Hazel Distillate, Ginseng Extract Nettle Extract Linseed Extract, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Aloe Barbadensis Gel, Biotin, Panthenol, Dimenthicone Copoyol, Triethyl Citrate Benzophenone-4, Aminomethyl Proponal, Glycerin, Fragrance.

    The first two are the same and those are the main ingredients of both.

    Here are my hairspray ingredients which make me appreciate how hard this is to type off a round can with tiny shiny lettering: (tresemme extra hold)

    alcohol denat, hydrofluorocarbon 152a, va/crotonates/vinyl neodecanoate copolymer, octylacrylamide/acrylates/butylaminoethyl methacrylate copolymer, aminomethyl propanol, dimethyl stearamine, fragrance, linalool, limonene, butylphenyl methylpropional, amyl cinnamal, hexyl cinnamal, citronellol, geraniol.

  • #699013

    And just one more hairspray to compare to what Sacrilege posted, Free and Clear Hairspray for sensitive skin: SD alcohol 40-B, purified water, acrylates/octylacrylamide copolymer, dimethicone copolyol, polyurethane-1, aminomethyl propanol, phytantriol, and citric acid

  • #699014

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Pascha – Its funny that you mentioned the one for sensitive skin. The Model In A Bodel comes in a feew formulas, I bought for sensitive skin just because I always feel if you have that option it is always the best, but that is the one I typed it off of.

  • #699015

    oomis
    Member

    “Huh? Who’s doing that? Care to name even one instance of this happening?”

    Excuse me, have you even been reading the posts in the CR? Virtually every five minutes someone else is blaming women’s lack of tznius for every evil that befalls klal Yisroel. We were even quoted the Gemarah that women’s excessive use of cosmetics (and not only, as I was taught all my life, sinas chinam) was responsible for the CHURBAN.

    MW13 would like me to take this issue up with Hashem. Did Hashem say it was because of women’s excessive cosmetics that He was destroying the B”HM? If so, show me the EXACT source that says ther nevuah that these were HIS words and not conjecture on the part of someone who felt women wore too much makeup, and please direct me to all the miforshim on the subject, and I will not say another word.

  • #699016

    myfriend
    Member

    oomis – you’re rejection of the Gemorah (stating excessive cosmetics caused the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash) has crossed the line into apikorsus.

  • #699017

    Myfriend: I don’t know whether calling something apikorsus is effective in terms of convincing them that their line of thinking is incorrect.

    Oomis, it says so in Yeshaya Perek Gimmel, I don’t have time to check up the exact source now. However, as mw13 and myself were discussing, this is a two-way street, and it was inappropriate for the men in this thread to tell us that wearing our (tzanua and tasteful) makeup is what’s preventing the geulah, just as it would be inappropriate for us to tell the males on this site that their spending time in the coffee room (both irl and here) is preventing Moshiach from coming.

    There are MANY reasons Moshiach hasn’t come yet, but too much v’ahavta l’reiacha kamocha and kiruv krovim is not one of them!

  • #699018

    Sacrilege: hmmm so it IS pretty much the same thing. Good to know! Thanks so much for sharing your ingredients!

  • #699020

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Pascha – My pleasure!

    oomis/mw13/whoever – I actually do remember that when that whole “sheitel scandal” happened with the Indian hair, it was right before the Torah U’mesorah Convention and since I have a parent in Chinuch, I heard that the majority of the speeches where about how this is happening due to the lack of tznius on the part of woman…. It happens to be whenever a tzara befalls Klal Yisroel IT IS blamed on women. Normally I dont have a problem with it, I have long accepted that we are the lesser sex (believe me in my profession, I hear it non-stop) just dont deny it when it is brought to ahead.

  • #699021

    mw13
    Participant

    pascha bchochma:

    “Just to clarify: the sun / moon comment was said tongue in cheek.”

    Well that explains a lot.

    “Zeh l’umas zeh, I figured that if you can blame me with cherry-picked chazals for the evils of the world.”

    Whoa. I’m not blaming women “for the evils of the world”: the Churban happened for a number reasons, caused by all different people. I was trying to point out that if one of those causes was women using too much cosmetics, it certainly shows that this should not be taken lightly.

    “Yes, we all know how girls are expected to somehow be a mother, wife, and hard worker who earns enough to support a family, unless lucky enough to have rich parents…”

    As I said before, nobody got off easy in this world.

    “I guess my point here is that we should each work on our own nisyonos, instead of trying to tell others what they think they should be doing.”

    I disagree. I think this whole “mind your own business” attitude is solely from the western culture, and foreign to Yiddishkeit. And besides, it may be enlightening to hear about things we struggle with from people without negius on the subject.

    “it was inappropriate for the men in this thread to tell us that wearing our (tzanua and tasteful) makeup is what’s preventing the geulah, just as it would be inappropriate for us to tell the males on this site that their spending time in the coffee room (both irl and here) is preventing Moshiach from coming.”

    First of all, nobody ever said wearing “tzanua and tasteful makeup is what’s preventing the geulah”. That was specifically said about excessive makeup.

    Second, what’s inappropriate about saying “the males on this site… their spending time in the coffee room (both irl and here) is preventing Moshiach from coming” (assuming you can prove it)? The truth is the truth, no matter who’s mouth it comes from.

  • #699022

    mw13
    Participant

    oomis1105:

    “Excuse me, have you even been reading the posts in the CR? Virtually every five minutes someone else is blaming women’s lack of tznius for every evil that befalls klal Yisroel. We were even quoted the Gemarah that women’s excessive use of cosmetics (and not only, as I was taught all my life, sinas chinam) was responsible for the CHURBAN.”

    I was referring to a comment that blames women for something without having a source for it. Come on, if they’re posted “virtually every five minutes” it should be a walk in the park to quote me quite a few comments “blaming women’s lack of tznius for every evil that befalls klal Yisroel”.

    “the Gemarah that women’s excessive use of cosmetics (and not only, as I was taught all my life, sinas chinam) was responsible for the CHURBAN.”

    Yes, you should take up your lack of education with the school you went to. After all, don’t you just hate it when people cherry pick Gemoras?

    “MW13 would like me to take this issue up with Hashem. Did Hashem say it was because of women’s excessive cosmetics that He was destroying the B”HM? If so, show me the EXACT source that says ther nevuah that these were HIS words and not conjecture on the part of someone who felt women wore too much makeup, and please direct me to all the miforshim on the subject, and I will not say another word.”

    I find it highly disturbing that you demand a source in nevuah for everything. The Gemora clearly states why Hashem destroyed the Bais Hamikdash – why isn’t that good enough for you? Do you not believe the Gemora?

    And how dare you accuse an Amora of saying this just because he “felt women wore too much makeup”?! Are you insinuating an Amora made up a reason that Bais Hamikdash was destroyed just to further his own agenda? Do you have no respect?

    If you cannot or will not accept a clear statement from the Gemora, this discussion is pointless. I cannot prove a mathematical theory to you if you insist that one plus one is not two.

  • #699023

    mw13
    Participant

    Sacrilege:

    “I actually do remember that when that whole “sheitel scandal” happened with the Indian hair, it was right before the Torah U’mesorah Convention and since I have a parent in Chinuch, I heard that the majority of the speeches where about how this is happening due to the lack of tznius on the part of woman….”

    Well considering that women are about 50% of Klal Yisroel it makes sense that sometimes things are their fault, no? Especially when the tzara particularly affects them, as was the case with the “sheitel scandal”. (Although I suppose one could argue that it actually affects the women’s husbands more… ;))

    “It happens to be whenever a tzara befalls Klal Yisroel IT IS blamed on women. Normally I dont have a problem with it, I have long accepted that we are the lesser sex (believe me in my profession, I hear it non-stop) just dont deny it when it is brought to ahead.”

    In what way do people imply women “are the lesser sex”? I’m not denying they do, seeing as I’m not in chinuch and I have no way of knowing, just curious.

  • #699024

    Sacrilege
    Member

    mw13 – oh dont get me wrong, I am the biggest anti-feminist/sexist around I just dont particularly enjoy being blamed for the worlds ills 😉

    But come on, when was the last time there was an asifa lambasting men for coming late/talking in shul or bittul torah/zman or going places they shouldnt. Um, rarely. If ever.

    Each time something happens its TZNIUS TZNIUS TZNIUS. Which is fine, a little annoying though. And thats prob why most girls just tune it out.

  • #699025

    To make up for a three-day Yom Tov try a one-day fast.

    Several people did so following Rosh Hashana.

  • #699026

    Sacrilege
    Member

    “In what way do people imply women “are the lesser sex”? I’m not denying they do, seeing as I’m not in chinuch and I have no way of knowing”

    Did you think I was in chinuch? L-rd have mercy on the children!

    I’m not. I’m in the heavily male popolated profession known as Law.

    I have a parent in Chinuch.

  • #699027

    mw13
    Participant

    Sacrilege:

    “I just dont particularly enjoy being blamed for the worlds ills ;)”

    Very few people do.

    “But come on, when was the last time there was an asifa lambasting men for coming late/talking in shul or bittul torah/zman or going places they shouldnt.”

    I don’t know, I don’t keep up with asifos. That said, talking in shul does get a fair amount of attention, as it should.

    “Did you think I was in chinuch? L-rd have mercy on the children!

    I’m not. I’m in the heavily male popolated profession known as Law. I have a parent in Chinuch.”

    Sorry, I sort of skimmed through that part of your comment and just picked up the word “chinuch”. My bad.

    However, if you are in law I’m really suprised you get the feeling men around you think their superior. I always thought of Law as dominated by intelligent, forward-thinking people…

  • #699028

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Not a feeling.

    We elected an extremely underqualified Afro-American before a brilliant extremely qualified woman.

  • #699029

    myfriend
    Member

    a brilliant extremely qualified woman

    The Witch possessed none of those attributes.

  • #699030

    mw13
    Participant

    That just shows that the black minority card trumps the woman minority card, not that your coworkers are sexist.

  • #699031

    Sacrilege
    Member

    I dont take issue with you calling her a witch.

    The fact that she is brilliant is indesputable.

    And she was very qualified.

    Or maybe we should compare her to our current President. Got into College because of Affirmitive Action. “But he was the Harvard Law Review Editor” he never wrote a single article. He had no credentials.

  • #699032

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Really? do you think there are more Blacks or Woman in America?

    Its fime with me tho, I didnt want either of them. Besides, I still have a shot of being the first female President 😉

    Oh, and my Co-Workers aren’t sexist, they are awesome, especially since I am the only female at the firm.

    My friend was once at a closing and the other attorney said to her “They sent the Secretary?” so she says “No, I’m the Attorney.” So he says, “You passed the Bar?!”

  • #699033

    oomis
    Member

    “Oomis, it says so in Yeshaya Perek Gimmel,”

    Thanks vey much, I will try to look it up ASAP. And to the person who basically called me an Apikorus…boy, do you not know me.

    “I find it highly disturbing that you demand a source in nevuah for everything. The Gemora clearly states why Hashem destroyed the Bais Hamikdash – why isn’t that good enough for you? Do you not believe the Gemora?”

    Why do you find it so disturbing that when a comment is made such as why the churban happened for a reason other than what I was taught my entire life (and it sounds like a comment made by someone who does not like women too much), that I would ask for a verifiable written source that I can ask my Rov about?

    Does the Gemarah al Pi Hashem state the cosmetics issue as the reason, or was it the opinion of an Amora? There is a difference between saying Hashem said so, and a flesh and blood person THINKING it so. If you do not see the difference between the two concepts, there mamesh can be no honest dialogue here with you. I merely want to know if these are Hashem’s actual Words to us.

    Don’t you think it is relevant, when 50% of the Jewish population is being accused that their actions of putting on makeup are so heinous so as to warrant the destruction of the Holy Temple? Don’t you also think that if this is in fact true (and I take your word for it that it is in the Gemarah, just like the story of Kimchis, btw, which is not halacha), that with ALL the tznius things that girls are being taught in BY, that they might have wanted to impress this notion on the girls, as well, so as to prevent them from using excessive cosmetics and bringing about more tzoros upon us? Please.

    Instead of people reacting hysterically, why don’t they try being a little objective, and understanding what the question is, instead of accusing people of being chutzpahdig, apikorsim, ignorant, whatever it is that they think them to be, just because they ask a simple question. If I were not a frum woman, this would have possibly totally turned me off. If you are going to make statements that put women in a really bad light, then you SHOULD have the sources at hand that prove these are Hashem’s words. Amoraim and Tanaim disagree with each other all throughout the Gemarah.

  • #699034

    mw13:

    “Whoa. I’m not blaming women “for the evils of the world”: the Churban happened for a number reasons, caused by all different people. I was trying to point out that if one of those causes was women using too much cosmetics, it certainly shows that this should not be taken lightly.”


    Why would you point that out here? A thread by someone who obviously cares about halacha? If anything was being taken lightly, it was [insert posters] who were taking our need for cosmetics lightly, ignoring the question and implying how we wear too much and are causing a churban.

    “As I said before, nobody got off easy in this world.”

    And I agree with you. We all have our peckl. But there is a place and time for everything, and this thread was not it.

    “I disagree. I think this whole “mind your own business” attitude is solely from the western culture, and foreign to Yiddishkeit. And besides, it may be enlightening to hear about things we struggle with from people without negius on the subject.”

    I’m not telling you to mind your own business. But what happened here was not constructive at all. Bringing up the issue of the churban when we are trying to serve Hashem b’simcha, takes away our simcha shel mitzva, our joy in doing the right thing, even though it’s not easy to sleep on our back or do many of the things suggested, we do it in order to serve Hashem. Believe me, a woman who will not put on makeup on a three-day yom tov, is not wearing makeup just to look good – she’s wearing it because she needs it.

    “First of all, nobody ever said wearing “tzanua and tasteful makeup is what’s preventing the geulah”. That was specifically said about excessive makeup.

    Second, what’s inappropriate about saying “the males on this site… their spending time in the coffee room (both irl and here) is preventing Moshiach from coming” (assuming you can prove it)? The truth is the truth, no matter who’s mouth it comes from. “

    You just don’t see why what you’re doing is wrong, that you are claiming women are responsible for the churban, do you. We do not claim that you are even though you are inappropriately criticizing a nonexistent event in a thread that was started to enable us to follow halacha. Kabel et ha’emet mimi she’amro – work on your bain adam lachaveiro and don’t jump at every chance to blame others.

    Women generally don’t like to openly criticize others which I think is making it hard to communicate here. I wish that chazal hadn’t been mentioned – it just caused bad feelings and made many women feel that no matter what they do, it is not good enough. I don’t have a gemarakup and don’t know how to explain to you why what happened here showed a major problem in our society, but please try to understand why so many girls who post here, are saying essentially the same thing and have the same feelings.

  • #699035

    PS: Calling something apikorsus just emphasized this sense that you are ready to jump on anything to blame women – instead of understanding her request for a source from Navi, as an interest in where the Chazal came from, since girls do not understand the whole transmission from Torah to Neviim to Mishna to Chazal, but we know that Devar Hashem is true. We don’t believe that everything posted on the CR is true even if you wish we would.

  • #699036

    (sorry mods – i just saw oomis’ post:

    Oomis: Beautifully stated.

  • #699037

    mw13
    Participant

    oomis1105:

    “Why do you find it so disturbing that when a comment is made such as why the churban happened for a reason other than what I was taught my entire life (and it sounds like a comment made by someone who does not like women too much), that I would ask for a verifiable written source that I can ask my Rov about?”

    First of all, I’m not sure why you keep on mentioning “the churban happened for a reason other than what I was taught my entire life”. Now you know it. What diffrence does it make if you didn’t before?

    Second, I take issue with you labeling an Amora who said one of the reasons for the churban was something women did as “someone who does not like women too much”. Seeing as women are about 50% of the population, something of the tragic magnitude of the churban would probably be at least partially their fault, no?

    “I would ask for a verifiable written source that I can ask my Rov about”

    What do you mean? The post that quoted this Gemora clearly gave a source for it (Shabbos 62b). By all means ask your Rav about it.

    “Does the Gemarah al Pi Hashem state the cosmetics issue as the reason, or was it the opinion of an Amora? There is a difference between saying Hashem said so, and a flesh and blood person THINKING it so.”

    And if it’s just an Amora saying this you wouldn’t except it?

    “Don’t you also think that if this is in fact true (and I take your word for it that it is in the Gemarah, just like the story of Kimchis, btw, which is not halacha), that with ALL the tznius things that girls are being taught in BY, that they might have wanted to impress this notion on the girls, as well, so as to prevent them from using excessive cosmetics and bringing about more tzoros upon us?”

    I hardly think it’s a proof something doesn’t exist just because it isn’t taught it in BY.

    “Amoraim and Tanaim disagree with each other all throughout the Gemarah.”

    True. However, we have no reason to assume there is any disagreement here.

  • #699038

    mw13
    Participant

    pascha bchochma:

    “Why would you point that out here? A thread by someone who obviously cares about halacha?”

    I did not bring this up, Ben Torah did.

    “But what happened here was not constructive at all. Bringing up the issue of the churban when we are trying to serve Hashem b’simcha, takes away our simcha shel mitzva, our joy in doing the right thing, even though it’s not easy to sleep on our back or do many of the things suggested, we do it in order to serve Hashem. Believe me, a woman who will not put on makeup on a three-day yom tov, is not wearing makeup just to look good – she’s wearing it because she needs it.”

    Ditto.

    “You just don’t see why what you’re doing is wrong, that you are claiming women are responsible for the churban, do you.”

    I never “claimed women are responsible for the churban”, I was quoted a Gemora that says one of the reasons for the churban was that women were wearing too much cosmetics.

    And no, I don’t see “why what I’m doing is wrong”.

    “We do not claim that you are even though you are inappropriately criticizing a nonexistent event in a thread that was started to enable us to follow halacha.”

    Huh? What “nonexistent event” am I “inappropriately criticizing”?

    “Kabel et ha’emet mimi she’amro – work on your bain adam lachaveiro and don’t jump at every chance to blame others.”

    Whoa.

    1) I’m not the one who brought this up.

    2) In my book, quoting a Gemora is hardly “jumping at every chance to blame others”.

    “I don’t have a gemarakup and don’t know how to explain to you why what happened here showed a major problem in our society”

    “major problem in our society”?! From quoting a Gemora?

    “but please try to understand why so many girls who post here, are saying essentially the same thing and have the same feelings.”

    I do understand that people are getting rather worked up here. However, I think this primarily due to some miscommunications that have come up. Therefore, I would like to clear up the following point:

    Nobody is suggesting the Churban was the solely caused by women. That would be absurd. Women wearing too much cosmetics is only one of many reasons brought down by many other Gemoros (including sinas chinom, shelo borcha ba’Torah tichila, along with many others) for the Churban. Everybody is at fault here.

    “Calling something apikorsus just emphasized this sense that you are ready to jump on anything to blame women”

    Excuse me, I did not call anybody an Apikores. Talk about nonexistent events…

    “We don’t believe that everything posted on the CR is true even if you wish we would.”

    Neither do I. However, until I get a chance to look up this Gemora the only thing we know about it is what Ben Torah has told us.

  • #699039

    Sacrilege
    Member

    I’m going to play mediator here.

    I think maybe the reason most of the females where upset is because all they really wanted was tips for keeping on makeup for a 3 day Y”T. That being said maybe it wasnt the right place for you (mw13) to come in and quote that particular Gemara, as interesting as it was.

    Filters people, filters.

  • #699040

    mw13
    Participant

    “That being said maybe it wasnt the right place for you (mw13) to come in and quote that particular Gemara”

    I didn’t quote this Gemora! Ben Torah did! Everybody take it up with him!

  • #699041

    Sacrilege
    Member

    mw13 – LOL, ok well these women seem to be taking issue with what you are saying at this point in time.

  • #699042

    oomis
    Member

    “You can argue back that woman caused the first sin”

    Umm… actually… it was Adam Harishon’s fault for being untruthful in his instructions to Chava. By changing what Hashem actually commanded them to do, he was TOTALLY responsible for her being able to fall prey to the nachash.

  • #699043

    oomis
    Member

    “(sorry mods – i just saw oomis’ post:

    Oomis: Beautifully stated”

    Thanks, I was starting to feel a distinct loss of self-esteem. 🙂

  • #699044

    myfriend
    Member

    he was TOTALLY responsible

    Really? Why then was woman punished with the pains of childbirth and subjection to her husband?

  • #699045

    I’m sorry mw13 for getting stressed out. I am going to wait to respond to this topic for a few days. Thank you for your patience.

  • #699046

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Men are punished with toiling in the land.

    And if we were really worried about maintaining the pain of childbirth we wouldnt allow epidurals.

  • #699047

    SJS: My mother likes to quote Rebbetzin Tzipporah Heller saying, “There may be a curse, but we don’t have to do our utmost to maximize the impact of the curse – we can try to minimize it.”

  • #699048

    Helpful
    Member

    Sjs, you completely missed the point of the post you replied to.

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