Marriage?

Home Coffeeroom Shidduchim Marriage?

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 64 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1485915

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Will we ever see day when it’s acceptable for a guy to have a normal job and have a chance at getting married? Must the first question whether on a dating app, shidduchim site or in person must be “so what do you do”?
    Does one need to make up a story, or just say the truth as “I work at a store” and then conversation is over? If someone makes a decent amount even around $3000 a month, which can probably cover living expenses without kids for the first year or 2, excluding his wife’s income, isn’t that ok?
    Is the woman’s income just hers to keep and use the hard working mans money for expenses or is she planning to help out as well? Is this what equality means? If man and woman both work, why are all girls so judgmental at ” what we do’. I get that noone wants to marry a bum who doesn’t work and noone wants to live in the street, but a genuine good guy who does work and makes enough for the time being but doesn’t have an exclusive career, why is that so bad?
    Is marriage even worth it or is it overrated. Most people you ask will tell you, it’s just something you have to do. Before you get married it’s all such a big fantasy, until you snap back into reality. Is it all worth the effort? Should a man who just has a regular job force himself to be attracted to someone way below his standards and be bitter all his life…even in kedushin it says “he should not be repulsed by her”. Seems it’s the only way for an average good looking guy to get married though in this day and age.

    #1485986

    Meno
    Participant

    I was unemployed when I got married. Making $0 a month.

    #1486025

    Joseph
    Participant

    The wife’s salary belongs to the husband.

    #1486032

    akuperma
    Participant

    If he wishes to marry a girl who wants a husband who learns full time, and doesn’t mind poverty, he never will. He should look for a girl who wants to be a bourgeois housewife, or an affluent “career” woman.

    #1486033

    Meno
    Participant

    The wife’s salary belongs to the husband.

    And in exchange, the husband is obligated to support his wife.

    Surely that’s what you meant, right Joseph?

    #1486040

    Joseph
    Participant

    Correct, Meno.

    #1486045

    First of all, I don’t know about the store you work in, but hearing someone say “store” sounds bummy. Unless it’s sefarim or suit store…most of the stores where I live are manned by bums, not the type of people looking for a marriage. Definitely not wearing black and white.

    Let’s say he is a great guy, works in a store, wears black and white, learns every morning or evening, works in a good environment, has a rav, and a million other things I check out for everyone, than why not?

    My question is if he is planning on making parnassah for 7-15 people, he needs a better job later on. So…why shouldn’t he spend the time now, when he is single and doesn’t desperately need the money to focus on excpanding his abilities and talents, so he could make more money in the future.

    #1486050

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Meno you were making 0$ a month, who did you marry, were you 18 or 19 when you got married so noone expected anything, do you come from a rich family and did your parents agree to support?

    So even when a man has a respectable job and is a hard worker and able to support all on his own, its not good enough since he isnt some bigshot accountant or lawyer. Its just funny how women are all about these equal rights and think so highly of themselves with their fancy careers, but yet they still need the mans money, my money mine! Your money also mine!
    What happened to building a family and growing together, I know the Torah is an old book but some of us still believe in it.

    #1486368

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Don’t marry someone you aren’t attracted to. Getting married is a very important mitzvah. You have to do your best to find a girl. There are frum girls who want working guys. Maybe that is more common in out of town cities so it may be worth traveling for dates. It’s a hard situation and the shidduch crisis is also for boys not just girls.

    #1486386

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    First of all, my advice is to see if a therapist, you shouldn’t get married if you think the only reason to do so is because “you have to”.

    And you definitely shouldn’t get married to someone you think is ugly.

    #1486044

    The little I know
    Participant

    Most threads have a mixture of comments, some nice and informative, others superficial, and even stupid. I see three comment son this thread, and I have not merited reading something rational and respectable.

    Firstly, marriage is something that is dear and precious, a huge portion of the continuity of Klal Yisroel, and a truly holy mission. The Torah also tells us about the failed marriage, with the parsha of gittin. The surrounding issues of marriage, finances, the circumstances of the family, etc. are all potential sources of challenge and conflict, as well as potential sources of great joy, simcha, and nachas. Marriage creates the completion of the individual. All this stuff is plentiful in seforim, and I do not need to copy and paste anything here. We can all find the material.

    As for the income, it is not an unimportant issue, but it is a secondary one. Many of us may know someone who was wealthy, but in an unhappy marriage. Gehinom on earth. We might also know someone who has a difficult financial situation, but has a happy family. Who would you rather socialize with? Who would you rather be?

    Lastly, the wife’s salary belongs to the husband. There is some truth to this statement. But there is more myth to the way things are portrayed by that statement. This depends on much, it is a takonas Chachomim, but within a context of other takanos. When the “salary belongs to the husband” issue gets raised, there is a troublesome situation going on, and being small-minded enough to deal with that without addressing the need for a couple to live in peace, harmony, and affection, is a disservice. I have observed countless people who consult with non-professionals (such as the overwhelming majority of well-intentioned rabbonim) only to get piskei halacha thrown at them. This is a huge problem that contributes handsomely to the scourge of gittin. Once we enter the divisive approach of “this is mine, not yours”, we feed the barriers between a husband and wife. You cannot call this shalom bayis. It certainly defies the great virtue we speak of every morning when we list אלו דברים שאדם אוכל פירותיהם העולם הזה והקרו קיימת לו לעולם הבא, when we list הבאת שלום בין איש לאשתו. Getting into the mode of “You’re right”, is one of the ingredients of the problem. Am I the only one that recognizes the stupidity of just doing more of the conflict that divides them?

    The place we need to be with the financial issues of a couple is, “We have financial burdens that we need to resolve,” not me against you.

    #1486470

    laskern
    Participant

    I will repeat what I said before:

    The word for marriage in hebrew is Nisuim to elevate, that is to put each other on a pedestal and only see good in each other. When loving each other, each partner is willing to accept criticism to improve each other spiritually.
    I lost my wife around 8 years ago. When you become old and children are married off, there is someone who takes care on the other. Living together without marriage is goyish.

    #1486483

    Joseph
    Participant

    TLIK, instead of being a cosmopolitan Jew, try living like a shtetl Yid.

    #1486488

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The wife’s salary belongs to the husband.

    Only if she wants. She is also able to say that she will feed herself in exchange for her salary.

    The Wolf

    #1486497

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Shopping613- your name says it all. You are one of those people who just want a husband to throw money at you so you can shop all day on his expense.
    What does black and white have to do with anything? Not everyone can afford to spend their whole day in yeshiva.
    Stores sound bummy and are managed by bums? Now I’m starting to understand the reasons for shidduch “crisis”.
    7-15 people? How did we get that far already? I guess on the first date we should talk about how we plan to support 20 kids because hey you never know right?

    #1486501

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    And to all those posters giving personal advice, please keep it to yourselves. I didn’t start this topic to rant about my own life, rather the general picture of nowadays shidduch problem and many people I know who have encountered it. It is a known issue of how nowadays women disrespect men’s jobs if they are not up to their “standards”. Also many good hard working guys who are embarrassed to even look for a shidduch because they will be shunned down right away by either the shadchan or girl as soon as that question arises of “so what do you do”? And unfortunately, you don’t have to wait for more than a second after you’ve met to be asked that. I wonder what would happen if noone would ask until after 7 or 8 dates. Would the girl not care as much what the guy does if they gave the chance to see that they found a great guy but with an average or above average job and planning to move ahead in life as well? Makes me wonder.
    And then the girls wake up to see they are over 30 and still single. Now let’s see them find their dream boy. Will they have many candidates?

    #1486534

    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    “instead of being a cosmopolitan Jew, try living like a shtetl Yid.”

    Not sure what you want. If I lived in the shtetl, and had ch”v a medical issue, I would not seek help from the rov, shammes, shneider, or vasser treiger. I would do as most would do, travel into the city, and consult with a professional.

    What do you mean by cosmopolitan Jew?

    #1486535

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    this whole thing is stupid,
    the women should not judge you by the type of job you have, if your earning enough money to manage and your a good boy and all other more important stuff in marriage then the fact that you work in a store means nothing at all, why should you have trouble finding a girl?
    when did the girls become like this?

    #1486543

    @litvishechossid.

    1. I made this account when I was 14. I haven’t the faintest memory or idea why I have this username. But people here know me as this, so I haven’t changed it.

    2. I live in Israel, my own family and most people I know live month by month, with limited money, getting one outfit for pseach and one for sukkos. Please don’t throw accusations around me, all I did was say what I personally think when I hear a bochur works in a store.

    3. Most of the people working in stores over here are etheopians, arabs, and people who aren’t frum. It may very well be different else where, besides sefarim, suit stores, telephone stores…and maybe in the supermarkets, most of the workers are what I said above, at least in the area I live in. This is not only what I see, but everyone else in my city. If you live in a place where they are bochurim stacking shelves in the local dollar store, than great!

    4. Black and white is a separate topic, regardless of whatever the bochur is doing. That’s something I’d check out with anyone, a store working bochur is no different.

    5. Wait, you can’t afford to stay in yeshiva? Is the tuition too high? All I want is someone who learns. Whether it’s a shuir, by himself, chavrusa, with his rabbi, in the amazon rainforest, I don’t care. I never said anything about yeshivah. But if someone is NOT in yeshivah, I would like to know why, that’s all. Not such an insane request…is it?

    6. 7-15 people…Um, you, your wife, and 5 kids is 7. I believe 5 is the average frum family in Israel. I’m being realistic. My neighbor’s oldest child is 6, and they have 4, and they have 5 kids. Who is to say that will not happen to me? It’s not my cheshbon. Also, my family is going to be paying ZERO support. Nothing, zilch. So….rent, food, everything will be on my husband. I will definitely help out as much as I can, but once I have kids, I need to first be a mother.

    I hope you understand me clearer now.

    #1486564

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Only if she wants. She is also able to say that she will feed herself in exchange for her salary.”

    Correct. I mentioned the legal default which applies to the majority of marriages where the wife doesn’t invoke the exception. Btw, it’s more than just feed herself; it involves her completely supporting herself. Which means she then gives up, even as much as, the right to have her husband be obligated to redeem her should something occur to her.

    #1486578

    Meno
    Participant

    but a genuine good guy who does work and makes enough for the time being but doesn’t have an exclusive career, why is that so bad?

    What happens after “the time being”?

    #1486581

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    shopping- when i mentioned store i meant jewish owned business or office or whatever i didnt mean at the dollar tree making $10 an hour minus taxes with the threat of getting fired at any moment. But even managing yiddishe owned business/store, restaurant, or working at an office isnt good enough for girls/women nowadays. The reaction would be this; ” oh, cool”. Or “oh, ya thats, thats nice”, and then you know its already over.

    I agree with meno, if its a good guy who makes enough to support then why is it such an issue.
    Why do the parents and friends have to instill this craziness into the girls mind like, “listen honey, if he doesnt make a minimum of $70K then hes not for you, do you want to live in the street? Do you want to see your children starve when he cant put any food on the table?”
    Does anyone think that if someone currently manages a business or has some other average job that he plans to stay in it forever? What I really dont get is that almost all women work nowadays and in many cases make more than the men. So why are we so worried financially? Oh if she has to leave for pregnancy, ever heard of maternity leave? Ya those things exist and they get off days with pay! Better conditions than men!
    The funniest requests are from those girls who want a great looking guy, who is a full time yeshiva bochur and also a full time doctor or lawyer. That joke never gets old. Oh and also has time to babysit the kids while shes at work.

    #1486594

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Meno- the time being meaning a good few years until kids start to actually get expensive. Also time being meaning guys work on getting better or higher paying jobs/positions simultaneously.

    Noone knows what would happen in the future people can have great jobs and lose them too.This is where Bitachon comes in.
    Another explanation for time being can be that until then, he can use his own money to support without even needing a cent from his wifes salary, when the time comes and more money is needed to support, then maybe she can use some of her precious dollars towards the family.
    If it cannot be accepted that some good guys just have average jobs, i guess they just dont deserve to get married. עכשיו נודע הדבר.

    #1486596

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    oopss I didnt mean meno I meant I agree with Malach, they both start with M.

    #1486606

    Meno
    Participant

    This is where Bitachon comes in

    So you’re saying girls should be willing to marry a guy with no forseeable way to support her long-term, and just have bitachon that it will work out? Who’s being the picky one now?

    #1486616

    Joseph
    Participant

    Meno, I thought you were unemployed when you got married.

    #1486617

    TheGoq
    Participant

    “First of all, I don’t know about the store you work in, but hearing someone say “store” sounds bummy”
    I work in a store.

    #1486651

    Meno
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I was unemployed but I had a degree and a plan other than “I’ll figure it out”

    #1486654

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Meno- “I was unemployed but I had a degree and a plan other than “I’ll figure it out”.

    wow a degree and a plan, sure doesnt sound like, ill figure it out.
    Now that i come to think of it, having a “degree” and a “plan” and being broke, is just so much better than having an actual job that brings in enough cash to support.

    #1486661

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Instead of I work in a store say you are a consumer commodities consultant entrepreneur.

    #1486653

    Schneubs
    Participant

    Question-obviously the cost of living and other expenses vary depending on location etc.

    How much do you (the commenters) think a couple needs to start out with?
    How much do you think one needs to make in 5 years? 10 years?

    I know that it will vary greatly, but what are ballpark figures?

    #1486668

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    JJ2020

    Ha!

    #1486677

    “…most of the stores where I live are manned by bums, not the type of people looking for a marriage. Definitely not wearing black and white.”

    Cannot fathom how you can write a paragraph like this without realizing how judgemental and offensive it comes across.

    #1486681

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Schneubs- upwards of $100,000

    #1486682

    Phil
    Participant

    “Now that i come to think of it, having a “degree” and a “plan” and being broke, is just so much better than having an actual job that brings in enough cash to support.”

    Actually, it might be better to start with a degree and a plan over an actual job that brings in enough cash for now. The reason being that the right degree can help land a job that brings in enough cash now as well as in the future when living expenses are much higher. A non-professional job that doesn’t require a degree might not have the same earning potential.

    As far as cost of living, it most certainly depends on where a family lives but $35K-$40K to start with seems like a good ball park figure. Five years down the road could mean three kids and by the time ten years passes there could be at least six. At that point tuition becomes a big budget item and you might need at least $100K in many communities.

    #1486684

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    Many girls have smartphones and constantly see the super awesome glorious lifestyle of everyone else. This causes a normal reaction of wanting the same for themselves and whereas in the past even though it was normal for a girl to want to live pampered, now a larger number of otherwise good people have gotten sucked into materialistic dreams. As a result, these girls’ friends, that aren’t really constantly shown off to, end up being around a much higher standard and the norm changes.

    So they want a rich guy.

    Just a theory

    #1486703

    Schneubs
    Participant

    I know of two guys personally that are in the construction business.
    Both are pretty serious guys.
    The first one got married not long after he started.
    The same thing happened to the second one. (he’s currently engaged) He is Bucharian, and his kallah is related to him somehow. I suspect some would say that doesn’t count.

    Is a serious guy in a brick-and-mortar store so different than these guys?
    Both were in-towners in an OOT yeshiva.

    #1486711

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    oyyoyyoy- You raise the point we are all trying to make, its exactly the reason why its a problem in our times that we have no choice but to deal with. And its not the smartphones per se, its the whole internet in general, exclusively social media and yes also smartphones which have the ability to run all kinds of social media and communications (whatsapp) on the go which exposes these girls to everything whether it is just a false sense of reality that someone is trying to portray, or anything similar.
    The competition has no limits and people are constantly trying to show others how “fabulous” their life is.
    This is a serious issue and prevents many shidduchim and negatively affects many marriages or even ruins them.
    I give props to the chassidim in boro park and williamsburg who live such modest lives raising over ten kids in whatever conditions they need to since they know what really matters. If they need to use yiddishe organizations for assistance they do, aside from the husband working hard. I know that there are many chassidish people who are sitting real well on the wealthy side, but again I am not referring to those people.
    The way I see it is as long as the guy is willing to work and has a decent job, it should not stand in the way of getting married if its a real match. To those girls who wont settle for any less than a doc or accountant and a life of “glamour”, I say good day.

    #1486732

    Syag and Goq: I re-explained myself in my last post. It’s true I live in a large frum community and there’s many frum, respectable people working in stores. Perhaps I just immediately think of the stores I see often, like cofix, the local supermarket, baazar strauss, etc,

    But yes, you guys are correct. It really depends what store, but if you do not give any details, where the store is, what the sell, what type of clients they have, my mind hears store and goes to the etheopian women stacking baby socks at baazar strauss, or the arabs stocking shelves at the supermarket, or the nonreligious young men manning the majority of cofizz and cofix stands.

    #1486734

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    jj2020
    hahaha

    #1486736

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Syag
    Yes it’s judgemental. So what. Humans are judgmental. She is commenting on her opinion of who to spend the rest of her life with. She should reserve judgement??? She even went so far as to explain herself what I thought was pretty obvious. Most minimum wage menial jobs are filled by people that she would not want to spend the rest of her life in private company with.
    She did not say she talks down to them when she goes shopping. She did not say she treats them with disdain.
    Someone stocking grocery shelves, unless they are a friend or relative of the owner, In which case it’s usually getting paid to help out not a career, is usually not someone in the upper strata of society. That’s a fact. Does no good to deny it and nothing wrong with anonymously expressing your feelings that you would not want to marry them.

    #1486735

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    having a degree and a plan may sound good but at the end of the day you never know what will happen, the person with a job that is good “for now” can we/ Hashems help easily get a better one when he needs while the one with a degree can get stuck not finding the job and working at a simple one while his degree collects dust in the closet.
    its all about Bitachon after all.

    #1486743

    MTAB
    Participant

    It is interesting how many posts here are from working guys who can’t get a shiduch. It supports my argument that the boys don’t all have lists. Only the learners and those who pretend to be do. And the girls who are on wait list are there because they insist on the learning boy. It’s not because there are more women than men and not because there are more good women than men. The working boys get lost in the fray and not enough people are looking after them.

    #1486748

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    having a degree and a plan may sound good but at the end of the day you never know what will happen, the person with a job that is good “for now” can we/ Hashems help easily get a better one when he needs while the one with a degree can get stuck not finding the job and working at a simple one while his degree collects dust in the closet.
    its all about Bitachon after all.

    👍

    #1486763

    Schneubs
    Participant

    I wouldn’t say that I can’t get a shidduch….
    I haven’t started yet, as I’m currently in the middle of taking a course in computers.
    Be”H I hope to get a job in IT, then start.

    Although I am a little nervous about shidduchim, I have come a long way as to accepting that I’m not a full time learner.

    #1486764

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    I think we already clarified quite a few times that store does not refer to working at the Dollar tree or CVS stocking shelves at minimum wage minus taxes. There are enough yiddishe owned businesses that will hire a responsible yid to work or manage the business and will pay much more than minimum wage especially if they see you are serious about it. They know that you need to live and if married need to support a family and they will usually work with you on a salary that is livable.

    #1486929

    Thank you klugeryid.

    #1486963

    The little I know
    Participant

    The hurtful thing about this subject is that the “working boy” stands at least the same chance of maintaining a Yiddishe home, with the values of Torah as does the “learning boy”. The big difference is that the working boy approaches parnosoh as his responsibility. The learning boy is convinced that his food and shelter are someone else’s burden. I am privy to plenty of couples where the “learning boy” is basically “kvetching a bonk”, and the working boy is doing a fine job in being a star to Klal Yisroel and his family.

    People need to enter the careers that are compatible with their skills and talents. These broadbrush statements that everyone needs to remain in kollel are completely irresponsible, and create far more problems than imagined. Likewise, sending everyone to work and/or college is also irresponsible. Not everyone belongs there. I envision, in my utopian reverie, that our Roshei Yeshivos would have individual, close relationships with each and every talmid, understand the range of skills and interests, and be the ones guiding these talmidim how to best utilize their potential. The myth that everyone needs to be a learning boy is not an indication of much thought to the process. This serves the interests of Roshei Yeshivos who get to have larger kollelim, but are too often a disservice to the talmid and his family.

    Our community suffers from a pervasive sense of entitlement and dependency. If you approach this objectively, it is simply foolish, and definitely not Ratzon Hashem.

    #1486985

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    The little i know- i don’t agree, the learning boys i know simply see the importance of their learning and view it as their role in life, i believe the boys your talking about that “kvetchy a bonk” lack something in their middos and priorities in life, they are definitely not the majority.

    #1487222

    “Someone stocking grocery shelves, unless they are a friend or relative of the owner, In which case it’s usually getting paid to help out not a career, is usually not someone in the upper strata of society. That’s a fact. Does no good to deny it and nothing wrong with anonymously expressing your feelings that you would not want to marry them. ”

    sure, klugeryid, nothin wrong with expressing your anonymous feelings about a non anonymous group of people. Nothing like assuming all guys in that position fit your own personal viewpoint and image of a job in your corner of a world. Nothin wrong with it at all, if you don’t mind being the kind of person who worries more about expressing their opinions than who they offend. Which, by the way, is just the kind of person I judgementally would cross off my list as a potential spouse for any of my kids in a heartbeat.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 64 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending