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Mezonos Bagels/Bread

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  1. SJSinNYC
    always pleasant

    A lot of poskim don't consider mezonos bread mezonos at all.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  2. mdlevine
    Member

    I was taught that if it comes from Barley, Oats, Rye, Spelt and/or Wheat and it is a bagel / roll / slice of bread then you need to wash.

    I have seen rice bread and almond flour bread and for those you do not need to wash.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  3. FunnyBunny
    Member

    I don't know the source for this, but my family holds that if it looks like bread we wash like bread, regardless what the guy behind the counter says.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  4. frum not crum
    Member

    If it's a kzayis or more (and BROWS: barley, rye, oats, wheat, or spelt) and it's the main dish of your meal/significant/ - I don't know how to explain that - then our family washes as if it's hamotzi.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  5. don't rely on this but we were told that is bread is baked with juice as apposed to water it is Mezonos, therefore, some stores add apple or orange juice to make the bread Mezonos.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  6. yankdownunder
    Member

    Mrs. Beautiful- I think you are right, I also heard if fruit juice is substituted in the baked flour mixture ( instead of water) then the bread when baked would be Mezonos. Matza baked before Pesach sometimes uses fruit juice instead of water, making the final baked product Mezonos (if this is true).

    Posted 5 years ago #
  7. cherrybim
    Member

    Most poskim hold that if you are koveia seuda with "mazonos" bread, you still wash and make hamotze. The exception would be in Crown Heights who follow the Rav Shulchan Aruch who has a different shita with regard to the shiur of what is mezonos versus bread.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  8. Feif Un
    Proud Modern Orthodox

    The reason is that bread baked with extra items not usually used in bread is called pas habah b'kisnin. Pas habah b'kisnin, is usually a mezonos. However, if you have enough to be koveia seudah on it, you have to make hamotzi on it. This is why many people wash for two slices of pizza - that's considered the shiur to be koveia seudah.
    There are other interesting things which arise from this. I learned this sugyah with a big Rav in Brooklyn, so I know some things about it.
    Many people buy frozen pizza. if you buy from one of the well-known pizza shops, you'd treat it as regular pizza, whatever your minhag is. However, there are also cheaper brands out there, who usually sell the pizza in a bag. If you look closely at it, the cheese and sauce were never cooked on it. They only bake the crust, add the sauce and cheese, then flash freeze it. When you warm it up, that is the first time the cheese and sauce are being heated. In such a case, you should wash even on only one piece. This is because when the crust was baked, nothing else was on it, so it's not pas habah b'kisnin. That rule only applies when the bread is initially baked with the extra ingredients.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  9. cherrybim
    Member

    Feif Un: "They only bake the crust, add the sauce and cheese, then flash freeze it."

    Thanks, that's a very important ha'ara. Who would've guessed?

    Also, I heard from Rav Scheinberg that today people are koveia seuda on even one slice of pizza. So according to Rav Scheinberg you need to wash and bentch when having one slice.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  10. smalltowngirl
    Member

    It is very unfortunate that many people (my children included) sadly miss an opportunity to wash and bentch to davka look for the "shortcut" with the mezonos bagels.
    This is a struggle in our home -

    Posted 5 years ago #
  11. Feif Un
    Proud Modern Orthodox

    cherrybim: I heard it from a prominent Rav in Brooklyn, while in a shiur on Maseches Brachos.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  12. cuty
    Member

    our rav told us that all breads and pizzas(even 1 slice) are hamotzi and there is no such thing as breads bieng mezonos.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  13. smalltowngirl
    Member

    Cuty,
    Clearly there IS such a shita, if you do not hold by it, that is ok -

    Posted 5 years ago #
  14. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    I don't know the halacha sevara, but I was told the following L If it is made with juice or not, if it resembles bread in some form and is made from the five grains, then you must wash and bensch, especially if it is being eaten as a meal. So a sadnwich made from whole wheat bread made with apple juice (if there is such a thing) requires a hamotzee. I was always confused about the one slice of pizza versus two or more slices, issue, requiring washing and bensching (my rov holds that you wash).

    Posted 5 years ago #
  15. Jewess
    Member

    I don't know the laws that make something Hamotzi or not, but I do know that when we bake bread (challah or rolls) we don't put eggs or sugar in it, so it will not be too cakey and then possibly be Mezonot.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  16. PM
    Member

    Generally speaking baked goods where the primary solid ingredient is flour from one of the 5 species of grain should be hamotzi no matter what amount is eaten. One exception to this rule mentioned in the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch is called pas haba'ah b'kisnin, which is mezonos unless one eats a quantity that most people would consider a full meal when eaten with appropriate side dishes. The Beis Yosef explains the underlying logic is that pas haba'ah b'kisnin is a form of bread that has lost the primary quality that gives bread its special beracha; it is not usually eaten as the mainstay of a meal.
    The Rishonim give three different explanations for what qualifies as pas haba'ah b'kisnin, the one relevant to our discussion is dough kneaded with sweeteners such as juice or sugar. According to the Mechaber if the sweetness is significantly noticeable it loses its status as regular bread, according to the Rema it needs a predominantly sweet flavor. Cake is the most obvious example of this form of baked goods. Some Poskim, notably the Maharsham in Daas Torah, write that if the majority liquid in the dough is other liquids such as juice and not water, the item needs not be extremely sweet to be mezonos. Based on this, many have come under the impression that there is such an item as a "mezonos roll".
    However there are numerous problems with this conclusion. Most "mezonos rolls" are made with reconstituted juice where the water is actually of greater volume than the concentrate. According to most Poskim, only the concentrate counts as juice and in fact the roll contains a majority of water. Additionally, these rolls are designed to be eaten as a sandwich for a meal, and fail to meet the underlying logic of pas haba'ah b'kisnin. Rather they are considered in Halacha to be regular bread. The Marsham himself clearly is only referring to a food that is not eaten as a meal because of its sweetness, because he writes that eggs do not count as "other liquids" to render a pastry baked with them as the primary liquid a non-bread item because they are not sweet. Clearly it was never his intention to consider water the sole qualifying factor to determine what beracha is said on baked goods.
    So it seems to me that a mezonos roll or bagel must be hamotzi even if only a small quantity is eaten.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  17. PM
    Member

    Some have proposed that pizza should qualify as pas haba'ah b'kisnin because of the tomato sauce and cheese. The second of the 3 catagories of pas haba'ah b'kisnin is a filled dough such as a pie. However the Magen Avraham clearly writes that to lose its bread status the pastry must be filled with a sweet filling that would render the item more suitable for a desert then a main course. He writes that meat fish and cheese do not qualify and a shepard's pie would be considered regular bread that requires hamotzi even on a minimal quantity. This is the accepted position in the Poskim, although as often there are those who disagree. Therefore pizza would not be mezonos by virtue of the cheese topping.
    Many pizza shops feel they are better serving their customers if they can save them pizza that does not require washing and bentching, so they make the dough using apple juice or milk, in effect a "mezonos roll". While Reb Moshe zatzal seems to have accepted this, but as we mentioned previously it is conditional on considering pizza a snack and not a meal. If pizza is generally eaten as a meal by most people most of the time, it CAN NOT be pas haba'ah b'kisnin and is always hamotzi, even for HALF a slice or less.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  18. mazal77
    Member

    Ames, sephardim hold differently, If you are unsure ask your Rabbi. Just like Sephardim are stricter on Pat Yisrael, then Ashkenazim, there are differences in opinions regarding Mezonot Bread.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  19. PM
    Member

    Sefardim follow the Mechaber/Maran who lowers the bar for being considered a "sweet" pastry, however the requirement to not be eaten as a staple remains. I asked the Rav of the Sefardi community in Beitar and he agreed that today egg challa should be hamotzi even for Sefardim because no one would eat it for desert.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  20. Midwood Yid
    Member

    Eating mezonos bread/bagles without washing shuld only be done when there is no water around (eg. on a trip etc.) not when you are home or in a place where there is water and your just too lazy to wash.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  21. feivel
    talmid

    irarab

    IF the mezonoz bread requires you to wash then you CANNOT eat them without washing, either with water, "washing" on a rough surface, or eating the bread without touching it, or some other aitza that substitutes for washing, but you CANNOT just eat it stam.

    if it doesnt require washing then you should not wash (with a Brocha)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  22. Mezonos Maven
    Member

    feivel, you can eat bread without hamotzi if you eat it without touching the bread with your hands?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  23. feivel
    talmid

    maven

    NO not HaMotzi

    al netilas yadaim

    but thats not what i was referring to. what i said was that if the "bread" was poskined as being mezonos, then if you want to wash out of safek or something, you cannot make the al netilyas yadaim, (unless it is of sufficient quantity and you are being kovayah seudah.

    dont ask me
    im no authority

    Posted 5 years ago #
  24. cherrybim
    Member

    PM: "I asked the Rav of the Sefardi community in Beitar and he agreed that today egg challa should be hamotzi even for Sefardim because no one would eat it for desert."

    Does the M'chaber make the criteria for PHB "desert" or is it "snack" food? Also where does the M'chaber bring down the sweetness factor?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  25. PM
    Member

    the Beis Yosef writes אין דרך בני אדם לקבוע סעודתן עליו . The source is OC 168:7

    Posted 5 years ago #
  26. cherrybim
    Member

    PM- "the Beis Yosef writes אין דרך בני אדם לקבוע סעודתן עליו . The source is OC 168:7 "

    OK, that takes care of PH"B as a snack food, which includes desert but not limited to desert. But what about your criteria that PH"B needs to be sweet?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  27. PM
    Member

    The source is OC 168:7. The Magen Avraham is at the end of the siman.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  28. How about wraps (i.e. tuna wraps, etc...)?
    Are they hamoitzee, or are they so unlike bread that they are legitimately mezonos?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  29. cherrybim
    Member

    PM-"The source is OC 168:7. The Magen Avraham is at the end of the siman."

    I think that the Mishna B'rura holds that smaller unsweetened dough that is filled with meat (frank in blanket) or cheese (pizza), etc. or any hors d'oeuvre, which would not normally be considered a meal in itself; would be the same as pas haba b'kisnin.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  30. mazal77
    Member

    I just went to check a Halacha Site(Daily Halacha) for Sephardim, and basically The Rabbi summarized it as," According to Sephardic Custom, Challah baked with honey, sugar, and other sweetening agents, and the bread has a sweet taste, requires the Bereacha of Mezonot and may not be used as the bread for Shabbat Meals. A Sephardi may use such bread as Ha'Motzi, only if he eats a quanity of 216 grams."

    "Accordingly, Chacham Ovadia Yosef in his recently published works, on the laws of Berachot, (page.55) rules that Sephardim may not recite Ha'motzi and use such bread for the Shabbat Meal, since the bread baked with the sweetening agents that can be tasted in the bread, does not, according, to Sephardic Halacha, have the status of "bread" Sephardim must use only Water Challah- or other non-sweetened bread Challah. Sweetened Challah maybe used, only if the sweetened agents can not be discerned in the Challah"

    Posted 5 years ago #
  31. I've learned that there's a problem with the mezonos rolls they give on airlines. Even if you do consider mezonos ROLLS a Pas Habo'oh B'Kisnin because of the fruit juice, then there is still a problem of being kove'ah seuda on it, because you are eating a meal with it (the food becomes 'part' of the bread.) Most Pas Habo'oh B'Kisnin doesn't usually have that problem, because you'd have to eat half a pan of cake to make a k'vias seuda and wash. Although it's not impossible.... :P

    Posted 5 years ago #
  32. cherrybim
    Member

    "I think..." the bold think was highlighted by the mod, not cherrybim. Many times I try to avoid definitive statements and though I'm quite sure of what I'm saying.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  33. Joseph
    the first

    Is this one of those times?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  34. PM
    Member

    cherrybim is right. The Biur Halacha does hold that dough filled with not sweet filling would be pas haba'ah b'kisnin if it is small enough that it is clearly made to be a snack and not a meal. He does not bring any source for this seeming compromise between the Magen Avraham and the Taz, and it is difficult to understand his logic. The best explanation I can put forward is that the Biur Halacha paskens a tziruf of the Taz with the Ma'aseh Nisim, even though he never mentions the shita of the Ma'aseh Nissim' and in other places makes it clear he does not hold like his shita.
    In any event it is clear that Mishna Berura paskens that anything meant to be eaten as the mainstay of a meal is ALWAYS hamotzi, which would include pizza.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  35. cherrybim
    Member

    sh'koach.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  36. PM
    Member

    I realize I referred to the Ma'aseh Nissim w/o bringing his psak. The Derech HaChaim in Kuntras Acharon explains that the 3 examples of pas haba'ah b'kisnin are nothing more then "examples", but any baked product that in this time and place most people do not eat as the mainstay of a meal looses its status as true bread and is mezonos unless one eats enough to be a full meal. According to this it need not be sweet or filled. Reb Shlomom Zalman Auerbach paskened this way, and therefore he held that the beracha on pizza would depend if it was eaten in the US or EY, since it is eaten differently.
    This could explain the Biur Halacha cherrybim mentioned that small hors d'oeuvres are mezonos even though filled with meat, because their size indicates they are clearly NOT the mainstay of the meal. However regarding deserts the MB paskens that one only says a beracha on pas haba'ah b'kisnin if it meets ALL 3 shitos, because otherwise it is a safek pas gamur. According to the Maaseh Nissim this would be unnecessary, just look and see how most people eat it and there should be NO SAFEK involved.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  37. cherrybim
    Member

    I'll borrow from another current thread; a major pet peeve of mine is at fancy shmorgs where you have a bread display, m'zonos of course, or at the meat slicing area. In the opinion of certain Rabbonim, this is clearly a case of nichshel es harabim even if they provide for washing outside the room.
    When I make a simcha, the caterer is instructed to exclude this setup. One time they set it up anyway and I had them remove it.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  38. PM
    Member

    I've never seen a "smorg", only heard stories which I hope were greatly exaggerated. However Reb Moshe and the Aruch HaShulchan write that at a simcha even if one eats real pas haba'ah b'kisnin it may be necessary to say hamotzi, if the sum total of food being consumed including shehakol foods is the size of a full meal. My impression is people eat a lot more then that at a "smorg".

    Posted 5 years ago #

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