Is it true that the bracha on "mezonos rolls" is really hamotzi?
So can you make Kiddush on them?
Is it true that the bracha on "mezonos rolls" is really hamotzi?
So can you make Kiddush on them?
I remember that somewhere in halacha it stated that kavanah was part of the reason that one makes HaMotzi instead of Mezonos. If one is reasoning that you're eating a meal (koveah seudah), irregardless of the amount of juice used instead of water, that the bracha is HaMotzi; not Mezonos.
Those "mezonos" bagels with a shmear are really "hamotzi" because that's your breakfast.
I always considered mezonos bread the same as the tooth fairy - neither really exists in reality.
If it quacks like a duck...
mik5 -"Is it true that the bracha on "mezonos rolls" is really hamotzi?
So can you make Kiddush on them?"
Ya' know 20 years ago all the Farfrumta guys I know started with there is no such thing as "Mezonos rolls". I, of course, being the naive guy that I am - of course believed them. In actuality there is a big Machlokes Haposkim regarding this. The reason that people call them "Mezonos rolls" is because the Rav Hamachshir on the bakery holds they are Mezonos.
So there are two reasons you can use these rolls for a Seudah:
1. You hold that they are really Hamotzay like some Poskim.
2. You hold like others that they are Mezonos, but the S'A Paskens you can make a Hamotzay on Mezonos if you are Koveah Seudah.
And of all places, in Willi, they only sell "Mezonos rolls" in restaurants, not really only but mostly. And they put meat on them like burgers & dogs. So their Rav Hamachshir obviously holds they are still Mezonos and eating them with meat doesn't automatically make them Hamotzay, not like other Poskim. And this isn't a mistake from the restaurant owner, because they all say the same thing -so they got this from their Rabbonim. I heard this for many years there in different restaurants.
Mezonos rolls are made with fruit juice and are p'as habah b'kisnin much like pizza dough is. The p'sak I've heard from multiple poskim is that if you eat it as a snack you can say mezonos, but if you're eating it as a meal you need to wash for it.
brisket -"Mezonos rolls are made with fruit juice and are p'as habah b'kisnin much like pizza dough is."
Most pizza dough is not made from apple juice and it still is Mezonos. Look up the Halachos.
"The p'sak I've heard from multiple poskim is that if you eat it as a snack you can say mezonos, but if you're eating it as a meal you need to wash for it."
Yes, this is the common Psak, but in Willi it seems they don't hold this way. I btw, washed in Willi, but noone else did.
I have an example where this Chumra craze has been a classic case of Al Tehe Tzaddik Harbeh and Kol Homosif Goreah:
The round Maacabee Pizzas when I was younger had one Hechsher and might not have even been Cholov Yisroel, Lo Aleynu.
Nowadays they have at least two Hechsherim and are CY.
I also noticed that one of the Hechsherim puts on the box -"Yozer L'chod -Birchos Hamotzay". When years ago it didn't tell you the Brocha at all. People who didn't know could always ask their Rabbi. I think that they are telling people this because of all the hullabalou about Mezonos. While they are correct about the Halacha - when something is baked first alone and it's basically flour and water then you make a Hamotzay.
So what am I saying that it's not baked first -this can't be -they know their product better than me? Yes, I know they know their product, but it's still Mezonos. Why? Because for something to be baked first and then baked again afterwards with stuff on top - in order to prevent in from becoming Mezonos it has to be baked well enough that it's edible. Even though Maacabee Pizza, not the bagels which are edible, are baked first alone -they are no way in an edible state. How do you know this? Because when I was a younger Bochur and I needed supper without having an oven -I knew about this thing that it was baked first, even though it didn't say so on the package -so I decided to let the Pizza defrost and I'd have supper. Cheese even though not melted would still be edible -same with the sauce. But lo & behold, I don't remember ever being so sick from food as I was that night.
So I know that that dough is Not edible. Whichever one of the Hechsherim on that Pizza decided it was Hamotzay because it was baked separately first should try eating it without the second baking at home. I guarantee you he will be singing a different tune when he starts feeling better after the stomach illness.
What we learned in Halacha class is that if it looks like bread and tastes like bread-- guess what, it's bread. If it's eaten with a meal-like filling (tuna, cream cheese, egg, etc.) no one can get away with calling it a snack. Technically, if you take 2 slices of marble cake and eat them with tuna in between, you have to make a hamotzi. We were taught that really people should wash on pizza, because its generally eaten as a meal, whether you have 1 slice or 2, and it has a "meal-like filling" (cheese and sauce)but that's a machlokes. Even it a person has a certain amount of, say, cake (don't know the amount- but a lot) they even have to wash on that (even if its just for a "snack").
As you see, this gets complicated. I suggest you ask your rabbi how he paskins.
There is no halachik basis whatsoever to make a mezonos on a mezonos roll.
nanny -"What we learned in Halacha class is that if it looks like bread and tastes like bread-- guess what, it's bread. If it's eaten with a meal-like filling (tuna, cream cheese, egg, etc.) no one can get away with calling it a snack. Technically, if you take 2 slices of marble cake and eat them with tuna in between, you have to make a hamotzi. We were taught that really people should wash on pizza, because its generally eaten as a meal, whether you have 1 slice or 2, and it has a "meal-like filling" (cheese and sauce)but that's a machlokes. Even it a person has a certain amount of, say, cake (don't know the amount- but a lot) they even have to wash on that (even if its just for a "snack")."
Yes, this is what's PC nowadays, but the only thing they forgot to tell you is a lot of Poskim don't hold this way in almost everything you mentioned.
So if you have a Rabbi, which e/o should, you should ask him what he holds and not rely on the Rabbi/teacher of your Halacha class.
MediumThinker -"There is no halachik basis whatsoever to make a mezonos on a mezonos roll."
Right; and all those Poskim who say these rolls are Mezonos are wrong because you say so and you know Halacha better than them.
It's one thing to say you hold like those who hold it's Hamotzay and it's another to say that you're way is right and e/o else is wrong. Where does this attitude from - Gaivah?
And btw, I've experienced this attitude many times before.
This is Linda Richman with coffee talk. Tonights topic, mezonos rolls, they are neither mezonos, or rolls.
Health, I loved that you were careful to specify that he"ll sing the different tune AFTER he recovers from the stomach illness.
Precision in Halachic matters is not to be taken lightly!
Egg Matzo is stronger candidate for Benediction of "Mezonos" than is so called Mezonos bread; So notwithstanding, if someone is still planning to utilize egg Matzo for haMotzie on Shabbos Erev Pesach [2021, 2025, 2045, 2048, 2052] then Kal vChomer that such people should be reciting haMotzie over Mezonos bread.
Mezonos bread is a stira. Uunless you can taste the apple juice, how can you consider it mezonot?
Where does this attitude from - Gaivah?
And btw, I've experienced this attitude many times before.
No one could have said it better.
Health, I don't think the Bracha comes from the Rav Hamachshir. I've heard of many such instances where the Rav was contacted and said that the Bracha, or some other non-Kashrus Halachik fact, was not his doing.
The OU, Rav Yisroel Belsky, shlita, Rav Hershel Schachter, shlita, and the Rabbinical Council of America take the bold position that the phrase “mezonos roll” is an oxymoron.
Rolls and mezonos can not coexist; mezonos rolls are a spurious term and the correct brochah for the so-called mezonos roll is hamotzi lechem min haaretz, with netilas yadayim a prerequisite.
See halachuc discussion and reasons:
FWIW, I always wash on "mezonos rolls." Unless, of course, I'm having them after eating "real" bread.
The Wolf (who is waiting for the "frummies' on the board to give him grief for this.)
Mr. Doniel -"Mezonos bread is a stira. Uunless you can taste the apple juice, how can you consider it mezonot?"
MezoNOS pronunciation is a Stira to pronunciation mezoNOT!
Now where did you get this from? Perhaps you mistranslated the OC:168:7?
Recognizing the taste is not the same as tasting apple juice. I can taste the difference between egg Challah and water Challah and so can most people, even though they both taste like Challah, and that's why these rolls (made from apple juice) are Mezonos.
The Shelah says that Pas (bread) that is mixed with milk (the same with other stuff like apple juice) and there is no water at all just milk alone, and the taste of the milk is recognized well - acc. to e/o this is Pas Haboh Bekissnin and you make a Mezonos.
So this is why nowadays you see on the package of some rolls - made with 100% apple juice.
If you look in the last page of the sefer "vizos habracha" he brings 4 letters from poskim about it 1. Signed by the American Poskim (R' Heinemann, R' Belsky + which says it's Hamotzi if you are Kovea Seudah on it 2.3.4 from R' Elyashiv, R' Nisim Kerelitz, R' Vosner, which say Bipashtus even if you eat a drop it's Hamotzi.
The basis for this is (seemingly) the M.B. in 168 17 which says that if something is generally eaten for the main meal it's Hamotzi even if it has the conditions od pas habah bikisnin
HaLeiVi -"Health, I don't think the Bracha comes from the Rav Hamachshir. I've heard of many such instances where the Rav was contacted and said that the Bracha, or some other non-Kashrus Halachik fact, was not his doing."
Oh and it's just a coincidence that all the different restaurants tell you the hamburger rolls etc. are Mezonos. And you see from OC:168 SK: 24 that even eating the Mezonos roll with meat you only have to wash & make Hamotzay if you become full from the amt. that you're eating.
There is simply no such thing as mezonot bread. Read the OU psak above. I agree 100% with it.
recipes -"R' Elyashiv, R' Nisim Kerelitz, R' Vosner, which say Bipashtus even if you eat a drop it's Hamotzi."
They have the right to Pasken this way and if they are your Rov -you should listen to them.
If you look in the Biyur Halacha over there he brings down a Taz
that says -"that the meaning of the Mechaber is only when you're Koveah Seudah". Otherwise it's a Mezonos.
A good example of this Mechaber is a pizza slice, which R' Moshe Z'tl wrote in his Teshuva like the Taz I just mentioned. (IDK if he mentions this Taz, but he writes it's Mezonos.)
I posted above -"Ya' know 20 years ago all the Farfrumta guys I know started with there is no such thing as "Mezonos rolls"."
So why are they Farfrumt -look at these Poskim that hold this way?
Because since when do American Jews run to the Israeli Poskim when we had the Godol here in America holding it's Mezonos?
There is simply no such thing as mezonot bread. Read the OU psak above. I agree 100% with it.
I've never seen the OU maligned so badly as the above. (even by me)
It is important to define the term kovaya seudah. The shulchan aruch 168:6 is clear that being kovaya seudah depends on the amount eaten and has nothing to do with the intent of the eater. In other words, it makes no difference if you are eating it as a snack or as a meal, the only thing that matters is how much you eat.
I posted the psak of the OU that it is Hamotzei. Some want to be maykil on this more than the OU while declaring that their standards of Kashrus and Halacha is "above" the OU. Ironic.
The OU does not seek extra chumros, in fact, whenever reasonable they will rely on kulos (e.g. bishul yisroel, chodosh, pas yisroel, cholov yisroel, bdikas to'loim etc.). If the OU and their Poskin (Rabbis Belsky, Schechter and the RCA) all INSIST that it is Hamotzei, one who makes mezonos on a so called "mezonos roll" is going below the halachic standards of even the OU.
Yes there are shitas on which to be somech, but a "kal sh'bkalim" is one who collects kulos and leads his life on the very fringe of halacha, utilizing any and all kulos available.
Shmendrick - Why do take for a davar pashut that saying mezonos is a kulah and hamotzi is a chumra? Saying mezonos and al hamichya on bread is at worst a bittul of a derabanan whereas saying birchas hamazon in place of al hamichya can be an issur d'oraysa of lo sisa.
Saying that I agree with the OU constitutes my maligning it?
If you look at Rabbi Bodner's sefer (Visen Bracha), he quotes from R' Shlomo Zalman as follows. In E.Y. where people eat pizza just for Seuda purposes the Bracha is Hamotzi even on a drop, In America however where people sometimes eat it as a snack it depends on one's Kavana (Meaning if your Kavana is for a seuda you make Hamotzi even on a drop,if your kavana is for a snack then you only have to make Hamotzi if you eat the Shiur Kovea Seuda) . I didn't see the Teshuva from R'Moshe you mentioned, but it's possible that that's why he holds in America it's Mezonos (bec. he holds eats mainly eaten for a snack) not bec. of the Shitas Hataz.
it was nice to see the halakhic give and take here!
some very valid points were made on both sides of the aisle.
may all of our discussions continue to be lhagdil Torah u'lhaadira.
sof dovor - bittul of only derabonon? is not birchas hamozon d'Oraisa? Or do you mean that since one can be yotzei d'O with 'brich rochmono marei' etc. But is hai pita mentioned in al hamichya? Also, I think the 3 brochos are d'O. (tov u'maitiv is d'R). and as such making only one brocho albeit meyeyn 3 would lichoira not be fulfilling the COMPLETE d'O.
looking forward to hear your reply.
sof davar - "Why do take for a davar pashut that saying mezonos is a kulah and hamotzi is a chumra?" The whole purpose and raison d'etrecof "mezonos" rolls is to avoid the need to wash and the "tircha" of bentching. That is what this is all about! Looking for kullas (or for the modern porthodox: kool-us).
garymeyers - yes, birchas hamazon is d'oraysa. However, one would fulfill the mitzvah d'orayasa with al hamichya which is a summary of the three brachos of birchas hamazon. In fact, the second and third brachos of bentching were established in the days of Yehoshua and Dovid uShlomo respectively.
Shmendrik - the fact that it is easier to say mezonos and more effortfull, to wash and bentch does not mean that mezonos is a kula and hamotzi is a chumra. Would it be OK for someone to be "machmir" and say hamotzi on a piece of cake? surely, he must say mezonos even though it is easier.
p.s. I respectfully request that this Torah discussion not contain any more needless attacks on our fellow Jews.
"ould it be OK for someone to be "machmir" and say hamotzi on a piece of cake? surely, he must say mezonos even though it is easier."
“The ministering angels said before the Holy One, Blessed is He: ‘Master of the Universe! (Concerning You) it is written in Your Torah: (G-d...) Who does not show favoritism... But,’ (they challenged), ‘Do You not show favoritism to Yisrael, as it is written (in the section of the Priestly Blessing), Hashem will lift up his face toward you (i.e., show you special favor)?’ Hashem said to them: ‘Can I avoid showing favoritism to Yisrael? After all, I commanded them in my Torah with the following imperative (Devarim 8:10): And you shall eat, and be satisfied, and bless Hashem your G-d; and they conduct themselves with extra stringency, (blessing) even on a k’zayis (size of an olive) or a k’beitzah (size of an egg).’”
The Jewish people’s performance in the area of bentching: Not only do they exhibit no laxity in the fulfillment of this mitzvah, but they have even adopted quite a stringent approach! They do not exempt themselves from this obligation even when partaking of a mere k’zayis or k’beitzah! As such, they are fully entitled to most favored status. They have demonstrated that – for this
nation – there is no danger of adopting laxity in the service of Hashem
(S’fas Hayeriyah to Ohel Ya’akov, parshas Eikev).
The halacha of kazayis and kabeitza was established by our chachamim in an era when they were mesaken brachos.
You have avoided addressing my case directly. I ask you again, would it be OK for someone to be "machmir" and wash, say homotzi and bentch on a piece of cake in order to be zoche to Hashem's favor? If the answer is no, then the same would apply to mezonos bread for someone who follows the psak of a competant rav who paskens that mezonos bread has the din of pas haba bekisnin. There are many such rabbonim who are talmidei chachamim and yorei shomayim and have reached this conclusion based on their understanding of the sugya. A talmid of such a rav would have no right to be "machmir" and say hamotzi.
"A talmid of such a rav would have no right to be "machmir" and say hamotzi." Even such so-called "Rabbonim" also agree that a person "can" say hamotzei if he is koveah seudah and eats a shiur. Saying only mezonos is a HUGE kulah.
I object to your disrespect towards many talmidei chachamim. Mocking their status as rabbonim because they have a psak with which you disagree is a display of tremendous chutzpah and arrogance. I will not continue discussing halacha with you until you retract and apologize.
Mr. Health -"I didn't see the Teshuva from R'Moshe you mentioned, but it's possible that that's why he holds in America it's Mezonos (bec. he holds eats mainly eaten for a snack) not bec. of the Shitas Hataz."
It's possible that's what he holds, but there are those who say Pizza is Pashtida, like our very own PBA from a previous topic.
PBA says -"I think you are making a mistake. Pizza is pretty clearly in the category discussed by the shulchan aruch in 168:17 regarding pashtida. The din of pashtida is that it is not pas kisnim at all, and one always makes hamotzi."
And I honestly agree with him. Even though I just read online a lot of articles saying this Chiluk that Pizza is Not Pashtida and if you're eating it as snack it's Mezonos -this really doesn't make any sense. First of all, some Achronim hold Pas without anything sweet is definitely Hamotzay like Pashtida and this is the definition of Pashtida. So right away R' Moshe zt'l has to argue in this definition and you don't find he argues. But let's say he argues and Pizza doesn't have to be Pashtida because it's on the outside instead of the inside -to me this is a big Dochek.
I think it's a less Dochek to say he holds like the Taz. Therefore
if you eat your hamburger slider (I picked a small burger -so people can't say -"1 regular burger is a Kveias Seuda which I really doubt) with a Mezonos roll then you make a Mezonos.
To make these Chilukim between Pizza, burgers and Pashtida is ridiculous to me. People here tell me that there is no such thing as a "Mezonos roll" and therefore this slider is Pashtida and Hamotzay, but pizza with the cheese on top is Not Pashtida acc. to R' Moshe zt'l. So what if I put the slider on top of the bun -so now I can make a Mezonos? To make all these Chilukim just to say R' Moshe doesn't hold like the Taz is in my mind a bigger Doichek than saying he Paskens like the Taz.
I saw written by the Rabbonim of YU that they hold a "Mezonos" roll is Hamotzay is because you can't taste the apple juice.
This I don't understand because the Mechaber holds that bread made out of "other" things is Mezonos. All he says that the "other stuff" has to be recognizable, if the Pshat is tastes like it - why wouldn't he hold like the Rema that you need all or most May Pairos? This would be more likely to taste the May Pairos than a little bit of Fruit. And yet he holds it's Mezonos, even with a little stuff inside.
I usually wash for "mezonos" rolls. However, when I was hospitalized (usually after giving birth) the ou slice of bread always irked me. I usually abstained from eating it. And I considered it a shame they weren't "meikel" on this and made it with juice instead. It's 1 measly slice per meal, probably not even enough for the brocha netilas yadaim. There's probably a heter for a chola, but mezonos would have made many patients happier--and fuller.
Airplanes are similar, how do you guys wash?
My sephardic friends are actually quite machmir as a result of the mechaber's shitta there, and will not use egg challa on shabbos because they are afraid it is mezonos.
"If the OU and their Poskin (Rabbis Belsky, Schechter and the RCA)"
The RCA is not one of the poskim for the OU.
Mammele -"However, when I was hospitalized (usually after giving birth) the ou slice of bread always irked me. I usually abstained from eating it."
Why? Even if not a Choleh -you can eat it. If no water around just don't touch the bread. Even with water around you wash your hands without a Brocha (I don't know if you even have to wash your hands at all). And then you make a Hamotzay. And Bench if you ate a Kzayis.
recipes -Also when I rearched the Net last night all I saw from many Poskim nowadays was that 1 slice is Mezonos and 2 slices you wash. I didn't see noone who says differently.
Now R' Moshe zt'l said 2 slices is a Soffek and they all are saying for sure Hamotzay.
IMHO it's just the opposite. Those days the slices were bigger and the people skinnier. So if anything changed nowadays, from R' Moshe zt'l's time, it's this - two slices isn't even close to a meal because the slices are smaller and people on the avg. are fatter. So it would take more food for a person to get full on - than less.
FYI, on a side note, I knew a real skinny guy who could eat a whole pie -I'm not talking about those personal pies, in one sitting. That's eight slices in a shot. I honestly don't know where he put it!
If you peel off the sauce and cheese from one slice and scrunch up the crust, you wont have a k'betzho or more? How about if you hold a kzayis is the size of a medium big olive? (See Chazon Ish igros kuf tzadi ches.
I have been enthralled in the give and take on this subject and would like to add my two cents:
We have a Halacha that seeing ones Rebbe acting in a certain way is considered his psak. When I was younger I had the merit to sit with the Bobover Rebbe HaRav Shlomo Ztl in his office discussing a communal problem. At one point his Mishamash came in with a tray of food and placed it in front of the Rav. It was known that the Rav had to eat at certain intervals under doctors orders. The tray consisted of cottage cheese with sour cream and a small roll. The Rav explained that the roll was a mezonas one made with fruit juice, and went on to eat it without washing together with the sour cream and cottage cheese. The Rav was makpid never to eat sandwiches and therefor ate the roll in small pieces together with his “main dish” of the cheese.
Many years later I was sitting at a meeting of Rabbonum and Dayonim and sandwiches were served. A discussion pursued regarding washing and hamotzi. The Dayan who gave the hechser for the sandwiches stated that one may make a mezones if he was eating only one or two sandwiches, another rav promptly got up and went to wash making hamotzi etc. I was taken aback at his chutzpa but that may not be the point here…. Personally I took apart the sandwich and ate the middle with a bit of of the mozonas bread as I had seen the Bobover Rebbe do. I share all this because I feel we should not be mekatrik on all the yidden who eat these sandwiches and pizza’s making mezonous. Our world is facing so many different trials and tests, we should be careful of putting down others who strive to live Torah lives.
polisha chosid - Respectfully, a Rebbe is not a posek and a posek is not a Rebbe. I mean no disrespect, but that is the fact.
Besides, you yourself write that he was under doctors orders, as such a choleh, which allows for kulahs and to be somech on the mattirim.
As far as not eating sandwiches, what is the basis for that chumrah? I am always interested in learning of new chumrahs to take on and would take this on if explained! Did he not eat korech at the seder?
polisha chosid -"Many years later I was sitting at a meeting of Rabbonum and Dayonim and sandwiches were served. A discussion pursued regarding washing and hamotzi. The Dayan who gave the hechser for the sandwiches stated that one may make a mezones if he was eating only one or two sandwiches,"
Yes, this proves that I was right when I said above they actually hold it's Mezonos and Not that the owners of the restaurants made it up.
The reason that I posted on this topic is that I find posters and people in general to have an attitude that my way and my Rabbi's way is right. Any other opinion is wrong.
This is quite evident from this poster:- "There is no halachik basis whatsoever to make a mezonos on a mezonos roll."
When people make comments like these, even if they got this from Their Poskim, I feel I can't keep quiet.
sof davar -"I object to your disrespect towards many talmidei chachamim. Mocking their status as rabbonim because they have a psak with which you disagree is a display of tremendous chutzpah and arrogance. I will not continue discussing halacha with you until you retract and apologize."
I have already done the same with that poster.
twisted -"If you peel off the sauce and cheese from one slice and scrunch up the crust, you wont have a k'betzho or more? How about if you hold a kzayis is the size of a medium big olive?"
I honestly don't understand your point. I tried to find R' Moshe's Teshuva about pizza, but I couldn't. Let's say that pizza is a Mezonos - if you do a web search -a lot of Kashrus agencies say that it is - and they say two is a Hamotzay. Now how could two be a Vaday Hatmozay? This I did find in the Teshuvous that R' Moshe says 4 K'beyos is a Seudah. I really doubt two slices is four eggs for sure.
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