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1. Ofcourse
   Medium Size Shadchan

   I will try to be as brief as possible. This happens to be very timely, now before Purim.

   About 20 years ago, my husband and I davened in a well known Yeshivish Minyan in BP, with very Choshuve people, where we were comfortable. One Purim, when I was very obviously pregnant, we went to Shul for Megilah Laining. Because I am thin, there is no way anyone couldnt have noticed that I was very pregnant. Exactly as I got to the womens section, the Bracha was being said. It was perfect timing. There were many females of all ages who were there. I am fully aware that one may not speak during Megilah Laining. Yet with that, I couldnt believe that not a single teen motioned to me, to offer me their seat, nor did a mother motion to her teen to do so. I told my husband that I felt so badly treated by that, that I asked him to leave the Minyan and we did. People ask me why we left. I tell my very close friends and relatives why, to others I just give a random excuse.

   In the 45 minutes of Megilah Laining, with brief stops for Haman's name, I think someone should have offered me their seat. Think a skinny person holding a watermelon for 45 minutes. As the Megillah ended, no one commented or apologized either. I felt like I must have been invisible.

   To this day, I wonder what others would have done.

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. apushatayid
   Member

   Dont take this the wrong way. I would have come a little earlier than "Exactly as I got to the womens section, the Bracha was being said" to be sure I got a seat.

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. Tums
   Member

   I second apushatayid.

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. truth be told
   AKA tbt

   Your reaction is understandable. (Some invalid excuses: the poor teens were fasting all day... Many/most of the people there were not regulars either, so they didn't feel at home and comfertable welcoming others. Still, a seat should have been offered and it's very hurtful)

   apushatayid: That sounds a little mean

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. Sacrilege
   the real one

   Um, its 20 years later.

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. Ofcourse
   Medium Size Shadchan

   apushatayid, I wasnt late, I was on time! I feel that might have excused others from not offering me a seat if I was a teen, not a visibly pregnant woman. Did that make the others free to ignore the fact that a very visibly pregnant woman stood through the entire Megilah? I sinned for not coming earlier, so I had it coming to me?!?!

   I think a pregnant cleaning person should be treated better.

   Your reply sort of feels like victims who are blamed for anything. They brought it on themselves. I dont know.......

   Sac, trust me I dont think about it that often, but now and then I do, and I thought this was the right forum to discuss it.

   Tums, if you're female and come across a very pregnant woman standing throughout the Megillah in the same sitch, this coming Purim, you'd ignore and if you're male, you'd have your daughters ignore? Okey Dokey.

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. gavra_at_work
   Member

   I don't see a problem with what you did by leaving the shul. Had Ittisa told me a simliar story, I would probably do the same.

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. deiyezooger
   Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

   Every "Ezras Nushim" should have a Gabbai'ta just the way the man have that should make sure that the unregulers (like young mothers who only come on special ocations like purim, simchas torah, rosh hashana or doring a simcha) should be welcomed, seated and given a siddur etc.

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. mytake
   Member

   ofcourse

   I guess you should try to be Dan L'Kaf Z'chus the women and girls in the shul, because that's the right thing to do.

   Personally, I find it pretty embarrasing that such an incident can take place in a frum shul. It is completely unacceptable.

   Where I daven, no girl would have the audacity to sit if there is an older woman standing! And if it's a pregnant woman, you would find bubbies offering their seat to her!

   This better be a one-in-a-million situation....

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. mikehall12382
    Member

    Manners, simple as that...but it's been 20 yrs so I think it's time to move on?

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. apushatayid
    Member

    Just as they are starting the bracha is not on time, (unless you are a yekke?).

    I'm not condoning not getting up for a pregnant woman, however, you were certainly NOT on time. You are also wrong, even if after 20 years you won't admit it.

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    apushatayid, ok I hear you, but if I had a million, or even a thousand, for every person who regularly comes in to the Megilla the exactly right time, Id be richer than Bloomberg.

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. Moderator-80
    Member

    i think what a pushetayid, and some others were trying to say, is that if someone has a very important need for a seat, it behooves them to come well on time (rather than relying on the good manners of others). if its not such an important need then its fine to come at the last minute. as they said of course that doesnt excuse the failure of good manners on the part of others

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    Mod 80, I hear your point, but suppose an older child held me back, despite the best of intentions to get there earlier? Im generally NOT a last minute person. Should I have gone searching for a different Minyan where Id have a seat? I had no idea one wouldnt be offered.

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. Moderator-80
    Member

    yes
    youre right

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. smartcookie
    Member

    Of course, you hve to understand, that in most Shuls, Megillah is a time you hve to come early and CATCH a seat(bec so many woman are there).

    These girls were definitely acting without much mentchlichkeit, but you gotta realize that they couldve come an hour early to get a seat.

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. smartcookie
    Member

    And BTW, I always thought you're a young teenager, and a boy at that!

    Posted 1 year ago #

18. Moderator-80
    Member

    i would love to ask all those girls and women why they acted as they did (assuming they were asked the next day). It would be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

    Posted 1 year ago #

19. aries2756
    Smartness runs in my family.

    Ofcourse, you are 100% right without a doubt and I am glad you brought up this story before Purim. Maybe it will have an impact on readers and they will remember it if the situation arises this year in shul and they will have the proper manners so as not to hurt someone who is in the situation you were in at that time. You are teaching a good lesson at an appropriate time. Kol Hakovod to you.

    For those who do not understand this, I feel sorry for you. There is no excuse for NO ONE offering her a seat. And the issue is not WHY she came just in time, the issue is what middos were these young women taught if they did not have the common sense to do so?

    Posted 1 year ago #

20. doodle jump
    Member

    Of course: I feel bad that you have not gotten over it. Chas veshalom, I am not minimizing the feelings that you must have had and still have. I guess people did not take the time to look around and see that you were standing there. I am sure it was not personal. Careless, yes. Personal, no. I feel that to leave one's shul over this is a little drastic. Just my opinion.
    Let it go. It has been twenty years. There is a freedom in letting go of annoying situations. Why carry it around?

    Posted 1 year ago #

21. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    Mod 80, I assume everyone was into their own life, thinking of their Purim chores, not thinking to hurt me in any way. Theyre def not a bad bunch of people. Maybe what they call "Kalte Lutvaks", not exceptionally warm. What else could it be?

    Posted 1 year ago #

22. Moderator-80
    Member

    probably
    they probably would say they didnt notice you
    maybe they noticed you but were concentrating and figured someone else would surely give you a seat
    whatever it is, i find it difficult to condemn a whole bunch of frum Jewish women who come to shul to hear the Megillah
    i understand how you feel, and i wasnt there, and im sure the best of our Jewish women would have made a point of noticing you and giving you a seat,
    but i just cant condemn themthere is always another side to the story
    and usually when we hear it our heart softens and we drop our previously harsh judgement
    thank you for not getting defensive and for listening thoughtfully to those here that did not fully agree with you.

    Posted 1 year ago #

23. Moderator-80
    Member

    you probably need a different type of kehilah, where everyone feels like a family and is always looking out for others. where people tend to actually be on the lookout for opportunities to do Chesed. thats the kind of place i also like
    i think you made the right decision in going somewhere else

    Posted 1 year ago #

24. smartcookie
    Member

    thank you for not getting defensive and for listening thoughtfully to those here that did not fully agree with you.

    Oh yeah! You can say that again! Doesn't happen too often here!

    Posted 1 year ago #

25. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    Mod 80, funny you say that. Its especially on my mind now, bec we're considering going back bec our present Minyan is slowly disappearing. There's limited selection for us in BP these days.

    Posted 1 year ago #

26. ZeesKite
    Because Mommy Said So

    Let me try. For 20 years I was trying to find some merit to their behavior. So here goes. While YOU know your outline & shape, it's quite possible these women & girls did not notice, they were intently concentrating of the reading. It happens. Sometimes things are more obvious to you than to others. Please be mochel on the twenty first Yom Kippur following this incident.
    Yay, I did my first Limud Zchus mitzvah for today!

    btw I find myself too in such situation (not exactly the same), if the need truly arises, I would somehow muster enough courage to request courtesy.

    Posted 1 year ago #

27. canine
    Joseph

    Like someone mentioned, it was after everyone was still fasting for a full day.

    Posted 1 year ago #

28. aries2756
    Smartness runs in my family.

    True but so was the pregnant woman, even more so a reason to give her a seat.

    Posted 1 year ago #

29. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    Zeeskite: "While YOU know your outline & shape, it's quite possible these women & girls did not notice"

    Think tall pencil with watermelon in the center. Hee hee.

    Posted 1 year ago #

30. bpt
    never caustic

    You did right for leaving, as who would want to daven in a place where there is no middos?

    The only thing I would have done, was tell people the REAL reason you left. Its not loshon horoh, its fact.

    No one stood up, because no one cared. And if no one points it out to them, they will keep making the same mistake.

    Posted 1 year ago #

31. Imaofthree
    Member

    Ofcourse...I am sorry you still feel bad about what happened and that it hurt you. If you could find it in your heart to forgive these people it would be such a zechus for you and your family.
    And IY"H you will teach your children and teens to give an adult a seat (even if she's not pregnant). good shabbos

    Posted 1 year ago #

32. bpt
    never caustic

    And for those who are using the " they were fasting all day" defense, watch how quick and nimble these girls will be packing / delivering Shlach Monos right after they break their fast.

    Are some women weak? Perhaps. But to say that NO ONE had the strength? No, its that no one had the interest.

    A friend of mine has a great line, for when things get pushed off by people who were asked to help out, and are given plenty of notice; "you don't have a scedule conflict.. you have a priority conflict".

    Do things sometimes not work out? Of course. But for not ONE person to have the strength to stand up?

    Please.

    Posted 1 year ago #

33. ZeesKite
    Because Mommy Said So

    OK Round one didn't work. Let's move on to round two.
    I know the shul you went to. It was for handicapped girls. You had two feet, they would have loved to stand up for you. I heard of a familiar story, a boy on a bus in Eretz Yisroel didn't stand up for an elderly man. He felt everyones stares and hung his head low. Finally someone pushed him off his seat, and then noticed his crutches. The boy hobbled of at the next stop.

    Posted 1 year ago #

34. ZeesKite
    Because Mommy Said So

    While we're at it we'll proceed to Round Three. Question (private) Was that a sudden condition. You just became 'obviously pregnant' while in shul? Or maybe you came in shul with the intention to push out first-class-high-priced-seat occupants with your belated appearance? Did you even know how much they paid?

    Posted 1 year ago #

35. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    Ok, so Im Melamed Zchus and wont think negatively, bec truthfully I cant remember which women were the closest to where I was standing, or even which women were there that night. Obviously Im not overcome with ill feelings, if we're considering going back.

    Now, next question, any reason I/we should or shouldnt consider going back 20 years post-experience?

    Posted 1 year ago #

36. commonsense
    not so common

    although I agree someone should have stood, personally once the megilla starts i concentrate on every word so i don't miss, i probably would not have noticed you unless you were standing right on top of me.

    Posted 1 year ago #

37. ZeesKite
    Because Mommy Said So

    I most definitely think you should go back, especially if you're in the same condition!

    Posted 1 year ago #

38. canine
    Joseph

    Go back. It'll help begin healing your 20 years of unmitigated pain.

    Posted 1 year ago #

39. observanteen
    trying to shteig in midos

    "Now, next question, any reason I/we should or shouldnt consider going back 20 years post-experience?"
    You can learn from your mistakes. But, dwelling on hurtful memories won't do you any good. It's a skill that takes some time to learn. You gotta forgive others as well as yourself. In my life, I've made MANY mistakes. I used to dwell on them over and over again - which of course made me pretty upset. I finally learnt to let go of them and move on with life. Of course I make sure not to do them again, and I try learning from my mistakes. I'm still young and I'll make some more mistakes in the yrs to come, won't I? Also, ppl are HUMAN just as me and you. I'm NOT justifying their actions (I personally don't understand how that happened in a frum shul), but, maybe try being Dan Lekaf Zechus. And YOU'll make sure to teach YOUR kids to do what's right! Hatzlacha!

    Posted 1 year ago #

40. Understand
    Member

    They may have thought that you were standing on purpose. My mother stands for the reading of the megilah.

    Posted 1 year ago #

41. aries2756
    Smartness runs in my family.

    After 20 years the playing field has changed, there are new people mixed in with the old and you should feel comfortable no matter the crowd. BTW, the kids who were then seated will probably be the preggers this time around.

    Posted 1 year ago #

42. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    commonsense,
    i probably would not have noticed you unless you were standing right on top of me
    You dont even look up by Haman?

    ZeesKite,
    I most definitely think you should go back, especially if you're in the same condition!
    Same condition? Please clarify.

    Understand,
    My mother stands for the reading of the megilah
    Ive never seen anyone but the Bal Koreh stand. Interesting thought.

    aries,
    the kids who were then seated will probably be the preggers this time around.
    Yup, I was thinking the same (but prob in Lakewood, with everyone else's kids).

    Posted 1 year ago #

43. ZeesKite
    Because Mommy Said So

    Do I have to spell it out?
    What I indicated is, if you're in the same matzav now (watermelon), go back to the same shul and give shevach v'hoda'ah!

    Posted 1 year ago #

44. sms007
    Member

    ook, first thing straight- to all those who say you should have come on time, who are you to judge why she didn;t come on time? i know that i myself was pregnant last year purim and made it right before the megillah because i was busy throwing up in the bathroom the entire morning and couldn't pry myself away from the toilet to make it there earlier. so i don't deserve a seat because i was late? What if I can't find parking? APY, i can tell you are not a women, so don't rush to conclusions like that. do you know what its like to be pregnant? do you know what the i-cant-breath-have no-energy-and-feel-like-im gonna throw up on your head feeling is? what about women with circulation problems? what about if she was in the ninth month when its very painful to stand? contractions can happen from seventh month, although not painful its uncomfortable. your gonna tell this poor lady you have to suffer because you came right before for whatever reason - which isnt even late?! coming earlier is smart planning, but i challenge you to time a pregnant lady and see how fast she can move especially in the morning.

    Posted 1 year ago #

45. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    ZeesKite,
    if you're in the same matzav now (watermelon), go back to the same shul and give shevach v'hoda'ah!
    I suspected you meant that and the answer is no. Did you think I remained that way throughout 20+ years?

    sms007,
    APY, i can tell you are not a women, so don't rush to conclusions like that. do you know what its like to be pregnant?
    Right you are! I believe there were some women who echoed his sentiments though.

    Posted 1 year ago #

46. ItcheSrulik
    Resident College "Shaigetz"

    I think you were right to leave the shul.

    Posted 1 year ago #

47. apushatayid
    Member

    Interesting. You are quick to point out that they had no excuses to remain seated, yet 20 years later you are still making excuses for yourself why you couldn't come earlier.

    Posted 1 year ago #

48. aries2756
    Smartness runs in my family.

    What makes you think that had she come 10 minutes earlier someone would have given her their seat or that there would have been an empty seat 10 minutes earlier?

    Posted 1 year ago #

49. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    apushatayid, are vomiting or attending to the needs of a small child, typical things that make young women late, not valid enough excuses? How on time are you when you have a stomach virus?

    aries2756, yes, that might have been the case, even if I had come earlier. Although I remember many people arriving at the same time. Possibly I didnt push ahead of others, in my condition, to grab a seat.

    Uh Oh, what have I started here?

    ItcheSrulik, thanks, at least some men understand.

    Posted 1 year ago #

50. Health
    Member

    You bring out some interesting points:
    1. That there is a lack of Derech Eretz in our generation starting at least twenty years ago. I don't think such a thing would have happenned when I was a kid. But, even some shuls nowadays this wouldn't have occurred. I know the Rebbitzin of my shul makes sure every lady has a seat!
    2. Not speaking out then to whomever -to complain and just bottling it up inside of you, has done nothing but cause you uneeded anguish. You proved the point -Never bottle up anything inside!
    3. When did it become more important to listen to Megilla than keep Derech Eretz? I find many people who have every chumra on every D'rabbonim but keeping D'oraysahs of Bein Odom L'chavero is non-existant! Who was Mechanech these people?

    Everyone please remember, even if you yourself have Derech Eretz, you should make a Mechoh (protest) if you see someone not doing what they are supposed to. My mother sometimes can't believe certain behaviors. People jumping into a parking space, while she was waiting. Not letting her go ahead of them in line, being that she is old and only has a few items.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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