apy- lets see you throw up all morning and then talk. its not uncommon for pregnant ladies to be on iv because they were throwing up so much. are you also going to blame the old lady for coming right before?
אל תדין את חבריך עד שתגיע למקומו
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What would you have done?
(97 posts)-
Posted 1 year ago #
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aries2756 - "True but so was the pregnant woman, even more so a reason to give her a seat."
Pregnant women don't fast Taanis Esther, as far as I know.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Yes I'm a man. No I've never been pregnant, that's one excuse I can't use for not coming on time to shul. It doesn't change the fact that 20 years later you are finding excuses for yourself and find the actions of everyone else, inexcusable.
That's besides the point though. The thread asks what one would do, I replied come earlier to ensure I got a seat. That is what I would do, still. I'm sorry to the one who finds that "mean", I'm sorry if someone feels they are being judged and I'm sorry I can't be 7 months pregnant and come to shul. I'm not sorry though for sayimg I would make sure to be in shul early enough to get a seat.
Posted 1 year ago # -
APY, with all due respect, you have no idea what a pregnant woman's life is like. She might have been ready to leave in plenty of time to go to shul, and suddenly had to use the restroom. She could have felt ill, she might have had any number of valid reasons for getting there by the skin of her teeth. None of us should be judgmental about this. BUT - we absolutely SHOULD be judgmental of the lack ofconsideration to allow a clearly pregnant woman to stand for 3/4 of an hour.
What would I have done? I would have sat down on the floor.
Posted 1 year ago # -
'lets see you throw up all morning and then talk'-
They're trying it out - on Purim!Posted 1 year ago # -
Health, Unfortunately, pregnant women have NO heter to not fast on Purim. IF a doctor tells them NOT to fast because it is detrimental to their health or the health of the baby then that's fine. But rarely will an OB tell a frum woman they shouldn't fast.
Posted 1 year ago # -
apushatayid, suppose you were in a weakened state, ch"v, and told people about it. Suppose none of the people whom you told that you were in a weakened state, offered you a seat, and ignored you standing for 45 minutes straight, afterwards explaining that had you wanted a seat, you should have come earlier. What impression would you have of them?
Similarly, very pregnant women are in a weakened state. They dont have to inform anyone that they're very pregnant. It's quite obvious.
Also, apushatayid, suppose for whatever reason a very pregnant woman can't get to Shul early enough to get a seat, would you suggest she stay home and not hear the Megillah in Shul, or search through her neighborhood for a Shul that hasnt started yet, where she'd have a seat?
In my case, if I would have left the Shul, my husband would have had no idea where I am. I couldnt disturb in middle of Laining to tell him I'm going to a different Shul. I had no option but to stay there and stand ~t h r o u g h o u t~ the Megilah, with your blessings. Nice.
Posted 1 year ago # -
"I would have sat down on the floor"
I hope your family would come looking for you afterwards because no way you would be able to get up by yourself. And you definitely can't count on all the women around you to help!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Could you have tapped someone on the shoulder and motioned that you needed a seat (at least during haman)?
Posted 1 year ago # -
aries - You mean TE, not Purim. I just looked up the Halacha. For the other fasts, the SA brings down pregnant women should fast. For Taanis Esther, the Mishna Brurah brings down a machlokes and he comes out in the Shaar Tzion that you should do whatever the Minhag is where you are. I think most pregnant women don't fast TE. And some pregnant women don't fast the other fasts besides Tisha B'av.
Posted 1 year ago # -
"I would have sat down on the floor"
I hope your family would come looking for you afterwards because no way you would be able to get up by yourself. And you definitely can't count on all the women around you to help !
Health, I cant take it! Im ROFL! Im gagging! I havent laughed so hard in months!!! Help!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Of course - "In my case, if I would have left the Shul, my husband would have had no idea where I am."
Now we know one positive thing with the requirement that everyone nowadays has a cell!
Posted 1 year ago # -
ofcourse - If it was really that bad, why didn't you ask someone for their seat?
Posted 1 year ago # -
RB, you can't speak during Megilah laining. You know that!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Consider to topic CLOSED.
She wrote she is MOCHEL, she was lomed z'chus.(she listened to my humble suggestion?).
What's all this bickering about. Men don't know how ladies feel in this matzav. Ladies don't know how men feel in THEIR matzav (Purin-Wine).
Case Closed!Posted 1 year ago # -
aries - There are ways to get the point across that you need a seat WITHOUT talking.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I dont understand the commotion. You asked what other people would have done. I told you, what I would have done. I'm sorry you feel it is demeaning, insulting or whatever. I cant, and dont concern myself with what other people should do, I do what I have to do. I cant, and wont assume anything. If I know that I MUST have a seat, I will be sure to be there early enough, to have a seat. Obviously, many people take a different approach.
Posted 1 year ago # -
RB, what more could she have done beside stand there with her belly in their face. You get that if she is standing and they are sitting her belly is literally in their face!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Health, I cant take it! Im ROFL! Im gagging! I havent laughed so hard in months!!! Help! "
Of COurse, I am delighted that my little post was the indirect cause of your simcha in Adar Rishon!!!
Posted 1 year ago # -
rb, ofcourse - If it was really that bad, why didn't you ask someone for their seat?
If I would have felt dizzy or faint, I might have, but I just felt tired and ignored, among people with little etiquette. I would imagine that those around would have given me a seat if I would have fainted ch"v.
Now, years later, I think it's pretty funny, ~b u t~ had I ch"v suffered a miscarriage, or early delivery, afterwards, I'd have been more upset and remembered it with much more negative feelings.
Posted 1 year ago # -
oomis1105, absolutely! May you be a catalyst for Simcha til 120!
apy, if you have a wife (if you're male) does she agree with your opinion on this matter?
Posted 1 year ago # -
"אל תדין את חבריך עד שתגיע למקומו"
Put yourself in the shoes of those who were sitting. How many of them were possibly thinking, I should get up and offer this lady my seat, but by doing so there is a good chance it will create a commotion during the leining of megillas esther. Sometimes when people dont know what to do, they dont do anything.
Posted 1 year ago # -
"APY, with all due respect, you have no idea what a pregnant woman's life is like."
Oomis. Nor do I care to find out. It is a red herring argument though. Other peoples opinions were solicited, I offered mine.
Posted 1 year ago # -
apushatayid, when I was a kid I was taught to ALWAYS think about getting up and giving someone else my seat and I taught that to my kids as well.
We were in La Vista in '87. I walked into the lobby for an event and an elderly lady came up to me and pointed to my then 9 year old son and said "is that your child?" I got nervous for a second thinking "oh my what could he have done?" and answered in the affirmative. She said "a brocha oif zan kupf, you did a good job! He saw me walking into the room and ran to the other room to carry a chair in for me! Even the teens didn't think of that!" I smiled and said, "Yes of course, that is what he learned from us and from my parents."
So if my 9 year old learned that, I could expect that girls of that age and older 20 years ago could have done at least stood up.
Posted 1 year ago # -
aries - You did not answer my question - Why couldn't she ask?
Posted 1 year ago # -
rb, why ask her, I already answered above why I didnt ask:
rb, ofcourse - If it was really that bad, why didn't you ask someone for their seat?
If I would have felt dizzy or faint, I might have, but I just felt tired and ignored, among people with little etiquette. I would imagine that those around would have given me a seat if I would have fainted ch"v.
Now, years later, I think it's pretty funny, ~b u t~ had I ch"v suffered a miscarriage, or early delivery, afterwards, I'd have been more upset and remembered it with much more negative feelings.
~ ~ ~apushatayid, I was thinking about this all Shabbos.
What if instead of me, it was a woman, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 or 90 years old (or a man), standing throughout the Megillah, would that change your attitude?
Or, do you feel, regardless of age or gender, whoever needs a seat, should make it their business to get there early to secure one, and if they dont, they have no reason to have any negative feelings?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ah Gut Voch!
To all those who are bashing "ofcourse" about being earlier than she was, let me tell you a little story that happened to me recently.
Just a little background first. I had been coming a little late to Shachris every morning for a while(I mean between Baruch Sh'amar and Yishtabach and not later C"V). A couple of Months ago I decided that this can't go on and I needed to get there earlier. It is difficult but Baruch Hashem I'm getting there earlier than before but not quite there yet consistently.
So, I get up one morning a few weeks ago and decide today I'm going to get there before they even start. I leave about Seven minutes before they start Hoidu. Now, the Shul I go to is about Three away on foot so, that leaves me with Four minutes to put on Tephilin and I'm ready to go(I'd already said Berachos at home). I get to the corner of the Shul I was going to and whoops I slip on the Ice that was there. i fell on my hip and the whiplash sent my chin into the ground. I was dazed for a minute, someone helped me up and I started shakily on my way. I was determined to get to Shul early(still had a few minutes left). As I was going I decided to check my chin just in case it was bleeding. Turns out that it was, big time. To make a long story short,approximately three and a half hours and three different Doctor's offices later I got approximately Seven stitches( I say approximately because when I asked the Doctor he said, he doesn't count).
My point being made is, that nobody can judge why another person didn't make it somewhere early, on time or whenever. Like someone who's pregnant, like has been discussed in this thread at length.
We are entitled to our opinions but, we are required to be Dan L'kaf Z'chus.A week full of blessings to all.
\\Gam Zu L'Toivah//
Posted 1 year ago # -
For the final time. When I commented, I would be sure to get their on time to make sure I had a seat, that is what I would have done. It was not a commentary on the OP who took it personally.
Calm down. I'm sorry my way of doing things makes you uncomfortable and feel attacked. I'll try to avoid you so that I don't make you uncomfortable, I really don't know what else to say.
Posted 1 year ago # -
apushatayid, pleeeeeez, you dont have to avoid me, we just have a difference on this one issue.
I hope to end it here, but can you just please answer this:
If you and your 75 year old father, both had a valid reason for coming when there were no longer seats (so you couldnt offer him yours), were allowed to stand through the Megillah, when there were teens sitting, what would you feel?
Posted 1 year ago # -
ofcourse - So I guess it wasn't so bad if you didn't ask.
Posted 1 year ago # -
rb, ofcourse - So I guess it wasn't so bad if you didn't ask.
Suuuuuuuuerre. Let's not be Oiber Chachumim here.
Like any pregnant woman or the company she's with, can predict what can and cant bring on labor...Gimme a break!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ofcourse, most men do not understand until you strap on a baby bump of 30 lbs on them and have them walk around that way for a week. Then when they complain that their back hurts, it is hard to carry so much weight up front that is not distributed evenly, their legs hurt, they don't feel balanced, they can't see their feet when they walk, down the steps or try to lift something off the floor, etc, etc, etc, only then do they get an inkling of what women go through. Of course they are missing the experience of getting punched from the inside out, just when you finally fall asleep.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I was once on the bus to Wlmsbg, and an older girl got up for me..
I told her its fine, I can stand.
She answered me that she gets up for any married woman (even if younger than her) Because 'u never know what situation they are in'..
Kol hakavod to her!Posted 1 year ago # -
I still don't understand how anybody can know that ofcourse was seen and ignored; maybe she was not noticed (even during haman).
Posted 1 year ago # -
u shudve asked someone for their seat??
teens dont really care abt other people and they dont like standing for 45 minutes either so u cant really blame them!!!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Tell your story to the rav of that shul before you go back. Perhaps he can talk about derech eretz sometime, or even ask the mispallelim right before megillah leining to look around and offer their seats to those who seem to need it more.
Posted 1 year ago # -
"I was once on the bus to Wlmsbg, and an older girl got up for me..."
Same happened to me. I was just married, looking young and fresh, but pregnant and weak inside. And I thought if I had to stand the entire way I'll just die. What a thoughtful girl.
Posted 1 year ago # -
DY I still don't understand how anybody can know that ofcourse was seen and ignored; maybe she was not noticed (even during haman).
I dont have a video of it as evidence, but there was no question about it. Its one room with everyone able to see everyone else (absolutely no hidden corners, room dividers, beams, etc).
What pleasure might I be gaining by changing details? If I wanted to make up or embellish a sensational story, I could easily get a lot more sensational or embellish a lot more.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I still don't understand how anybody can know that ofcourse was seen and ignored; maybe she was not noticed (even during haman).
That’s why she left that kehilah back then. She wanted a kehilah that would notice her. Fair enough?
By now that kehilah may have changed, as the whole BP has changed (for better or..)
Posted 1 year ago # -
I dont have a video of it as evidence, but there was no question about it. Its one room with everyone able to see everyone else (absolutely no hidden corners, room dividers, beams, etc).
What pleasure might I be gaining by changing details? If I wanted to make up or embellish a sensational story, I could easily get a lot more sensational or embellish a lot more.
I wasn't accusing you of fabricating or embellishing anything, but suggesting that they were concentrating on the laining.
That’s why she left that kehilah back then. She wanted a kehilah that would notice her.
Even during laining?
I just find it hard to believe that an entire shul would be so callous.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Even during laining?
Yep
Posted 1 year ago # -
1. Absolutely, someone should have offered you a seat.
2. I was horrified, a few years ago, in a Yerushalayim shul for Megillah where there were so few seats in the ezras nashim that there were more women standing than sitting. Still, those girls who were early enough to chop a seat did not offer to yield to the older women who were standing.
3. Once upon a time, I was shopping with a coworker lunchtime, and the clerk gave me the wrong change. I pointed out the error and she took care of it. My coworker asked, "Aren't you angry? She tried to cheat you!" I have just as often had a clerk hand me too much change as too little. Bottom line is, I need to count the change every time. But for my own peace of mind, I'd rather assume there was no harm meant.
Brooding over what happened in the past only hurts you. Learn from it - be more sensitive to other's needs, teach your own children better middos, and if you really need a seat, ask. Sometimes people are just too self-absorbed (or too intent on the davening?) to notice.Posted 1 year ago # -
Hadal - "I say approximately because when I asked the Doctor he said, he doesn't count)."
He's not getting paid for how many. I didn't count as a student and I got yelled at by my superior -"Don't you know the hospital gets paid acc. to how many stitches"?Posted 1 year ago # -
oomis1105, absolutely! May you be a catalyst for Simcha til 120!"
Amein. What a lovely bracha. Thank you. That is something I wish for everyone.
Posted 1 year ago # -
DY, yes people are callous, let me give you another example. There are women standing in back of the shul without a seat. There are seats scattered around the shul with coats on them. You would think that other women would take their coats off and offer the seats to those standing in the back. You would think right???????????????????????
You would think that if there is an empty seats scattered in the shul and there is a crowd in the back that women would go to the back and invite others forward or at least inform them of empty seats. You would think right????????
Or maybe that some would move in so the seats on the end would obviously be available. Why would anyone do that if others could stand??????
Posted 1 year ago # -
Health:
I just wanted to know for posterity sake. I've had over 300 stitches in my lifetime (most of it before the age of 9) so I was curious. And no that's not a typo. :)
Posted 1 year ago # -
BUMP
Posted 6 months ago #
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