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Oyyoyoy- who says they aren’t okay? Why do you consider it incumbent upon yourself to make that judgment?
it’s my own feeling that it isnt ok but im not a rabbi. but neither are the people saying its fine so were all just saying our opinions. DY basicly did a great job by hisself showing and explaining why it shud be avoided, and i think common sense and a lack of complete amaaratzus wud agree. that’s who.
if you mean why do i feel it’s my job to let people know it isnt alright to go to a mixed gym, well i think most people watching a pirtza in klal yisroel going on and can stop it would at least try. i can not and will not sit idly by when someone with a lesschumra agenda wants to publicly disregard/promote basic shmirah for kedushah. if people wanna go somewhere assur i cudnt care less. dont go around saying “why is everyone being so strict? theres nothing wrong”
I didn’t notice anyone saying “it’s fine.” I did notice a lot of people saying it’s “assur.”
Reb Moshe’s tshuva regarding mixed beaches for health should enlighten you that it isn’t so simple. It isn’t a mitzva to asser something that isn’t assur. If by fixing “pirtza”s you mean espousing your “own feeling” at the expense of halacha or “Gods feeling” you think that is righteous?
DY was attempting to make a halakhic argument that imho was insufficient to prove issur in many circumstances. I can accept this. He feels he proved something. But where do others come off spouting rhetoric? You don’t want to go? Don’t go. Is it assur? In some cases, likely. Is it your job to publicly share your unfounded feelings? Only if you want to look like a fool in my eyes. You likely don’t care. I think we have come to an impasse.
Oyvey, do you also not sit by when it comes to other issues facing klal Yisroel? I wonder among the people who have posted here are such kanaim when it comes to other issues. People may be moreh heter to go to a mixed gym, but there are also people who are moreh heter in any number of issues, including cheating the government when it comes to taxes or applying to government programs, cheating in business, lashon harah, speaking in shul, and on and on. What about the chilul Hashem when frum people are walked away in handcuffs? I think those things are more harmful to klal Yisroel than if an individual goes to a mixed gym. People can be as machmir as they wish, but who says that makes them better yidden if they fall short in other areas of their practice? So best for a person to focus on himself and not be judgmental of other people. We are not privy to the extent of the schar or onesh for what we do, and it is possible that Hashem may look less kindly at a hypocrite in one’s life than someone who goes to a mixed gym.
Shulchan Oruch even ha’ezer, siman chaf aleph (previously cited by DY):
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Rambam hilchos tsheva, perek daled halacha daled:
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Then there’s the famous Gemera that a man who walks down a path where there are inappropriately dressed women is called a rasha, which has also been cited in this discussion. I’d like to add that I’ve seen it pointed out more than once (although unfortunately I’ve forgotten where) that the the Gemora calls the person a rasha just for putting himself in a situation where will be tempted to be oiver on “lo sasuro acharay… eynaychem”, regardless of whether or not he was actually nichshal.
One is not allowed to put himself in a situation that will cause him to be tempted to sin. And anybody who thinks that he can be in a room with women dressed for the gym working out and not see anything inappropriate is only fooling himself.
flatbusher:
“I l know from my own personal experience that some of things said here are just not true, especially concerning how people dress and interact at mixed gyms.”
Did you ask your Rav before your embarking on your “experience”? What did he say?
the plumber:
“Im just saying one line:
The chevra here are hocking about mixed gyms.
Do all of you have your internet blocked?
If not then going to a mixed gym is probably better for your neshama than staying at home”
I wholeheartedly second that.
Had anyone defended cheating the government when it comes to taxes or applying to government programs, cheating in business, lashon harah, speaking in shul, and the chilul Hashem when frum people are walked away in handcuffs, and we saw and didn’t comment, you’d have a point. As is, though, it’s really not supposed to be a competition as to which is worse. One is supposed to be the best he can in all areas of the Torah, and that includes (but is of course not limited to) shmiras einayim.
FNY:
“But where do others come off spouting rhetoric? You don’t want to go? Don’t go. Is it assur? In some cases, likely. Is it your job to publicly share your unfounded feelings?”
Isn’t that rhetoric based on unfounded feelings?
flatbusher:
“there are also people who are moreh heter in any number of issues, including cheating the government when it comes to taxes or applying to government programs, cheating in business, lashon harah, speaking in shul, and on and on. What about the chilul Hashem when frum people are walked away in handcuffs?”
All of the above is indeed reprehensible, but it has nothing to with the issue at hand. Other instances of wrongdoing do not effect this particular issue.
And again, I’m curious to know if you did indeed speak to your Rav before the aforementioned experience in a mixed gym, and what his response was.
False Dilemma Troll?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/time-to-go-troll#post-524070
Mw13: I think I founded my rhetoric quite well, logically.
I looked at Reb Moshe over shabbos. E”H-A-56. He goes through the sugya quite well. I would call it irresponsible to say that according to Reb Moshe it’s assur.
If someone were to go through that tshuva and come back and say I’m learning it wrong,that’s one thing. If not, don’t offer ignorant opinions.
Again, no one is saying “muttar”. Just stop saying “assur”. It isn’t always.
Cheeseburgers, also, aren’t always assur. Your argument means we should stop saying it is assur.
It’s fine if you aRe going to do your own thing
FNY- you wanna know why i think people think its fine. True, less people said so than i thought with my original scan of this thread.
you said “Being that everything is muttar until proven assur, and being that no credible source was given citing an issur [yet], this thread points to the assumption that mixed gyms are muttar. If you disagree, prove your point. As always, please consult with a rabbi before providing practical advice toward chumros and even toward kulos.” this seems like your main argument.
First, like some have already said, our topic is something that, to my knowledge, most orthodox consider a problem. Next, i agree with you that just being machmir always without finding whether something is really asur or not is wrong. The same way something assur is assur, something may be muttar and people shudnt be stopped from doing whats ok. Again, saying im not a rabbi. Due to the fact that none of us here are, this attitude doesnt work here.
You bring up good points, i dont have time and patience to respond right now to the rest of what you wrote. Just saying for now that on a largescale issue like this, i dont think people shud say “hey, noone proved it assur”
Flatbusher– i dont know how your rant relates to anything i said. BTW I admitted from the get-go that i’m a rasha. That doesnt mean i shudnt stand up when i think a large amount of people are being led in the wrong way regarding issues of kedusha and the flippancy in which it’s made away.
saw an article about a kosher gym with personal trainer in boro park. i’ll try to find it. also, shmoozed with some people about this and they said that they go at hrs when noones around
Lior: before or after you learned the tshuva? Cheeseburgers are inherently assur. Per the torah. Going places where there are women is not.
Don’t listen to the people here, it’s not always assur to steal or cheat from the government. Go ask your LOR.
Lashon hara is also not always assur. Go ask your LOR.
don’t assume it’s wrong
my friend said “i go eleven pm, noone goes there then.” i had another friend when i was in israel who went at 630 am and one went 1 am. Better Health Studios in boro park sounds good but i dont know so much about it.
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