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This thread is now going places I really want to avoid, and I will now tr to refrain from posting here.
Can we at least agree that MO Rabbonim definitely are following/teaching a very valid derech? Yes, there are unfortunately those who don’t follow it, but that shouldn’t change the fact that the derech being taught is a proper one.
Personally, I try to follow what my Rav says. Are there times I slip? Of course – doesn’t everyone at times? But at the end of the day, I recognize my mistakes for what they are, and try to do better. I also think that almost everyone in my community is the same way.
Can we at least agree that MO Rabbonim definitely are following/teaching a very valid derech?
Not necessarily, it depends on how you define valid, and it probably depends on how you define “MO Rabbonim” (e.g. do you include Avi Weiss, Ari Hart, etc.).
What is the derech that MO follows and how does it differ from traditional Orthodoxy?
Joseph: Why don’t you go read your own posts?
According to people here, its proper to kick out people for not following your exact lifestyle and the people who are more accepting of people who might not follow everything are guilty of their averiahs because they do not kicking them out.
And I know of people who were kicked out of certain groups because their either cut their beard , cut their Peyos or refused to shave their heads
according to R Krohn (and others) in his book about naming a child, yiddish is secular.
With all due respect, why is Rabbi Krohn – certified mohel he may be – liscenced to decide these things?
What is the derech that MO follows and how does it differ from traditional Orthodoxy?
From the above discussion, it seems the difference between traditional Orthodoxy and MO is that MO doesn’t follow a derech.
DaMoshe:
Can we at least agree that MO Rabbonim definitely are following/teaching a very valid derech?
As DY pointed out, that depends on the definition of “MO Rabbonim”. Bur if we are talking about R’ Hershel Shechter/R’ Aharon Lichtenstein/R’ Mordechai Willig/etc, then yes. It may not be a derech that I agree with, but I do believe that it is legitimate one.
zahavasdad:
According to people here, its proper to kick out people for not following your exact lifestyle
Who here said that??
zahavasdad – Just like you ask that MO not be judged by those who are left-wing and use their MO-ness as an excuse to not follow Halacha, I ask you to not judge those who are not MO by those who use their “Frum-ness” as an excuse to insulate themselves from anyone (even other Torah Yidden) who is not exactly like them, and create a community of “like minded people” who truthspeak. (We are at war with Eastasia, we’ve always been at war with Eastasia.)”
A Galach is Frum, a Yid is Erlich.
according to R Krohn (and others) in his book about naming a child, yiddish is secular.
Exactly what defines a language as secular or relgious? Just because today only frum Jews speak Yiddish (except for some old people) that was not the case in the past. Yiddish secualr culture has a strong history with the biggest classic being Tevye the Milkman (Fiddler on the Roof)
I know they don’t because michael broyde had to write a giant article to be ‘melamed zechus’ on all the MO women who don’t cover their hair.
Sounds like he followed the lead of the Aruch HaShulchan.
Regarding Yiddish, from Wikipedia:
Yiddish (??????, ????? or ?????, yidish/idish, literally “Jewish”; in older sources also “Yiddish-Taitsh” (Judaeo-German)[3]) is the historical language of the Ashkenazi Jews. It originated during the 9th century[4] in Central Europe, providing the nascent Ashkenazi community with an extensive Germanic based vernacular fused with elements taken from Hebrew and Aramaic, as well as from Slavic languages and traces of Romance languages.[5][6]
I don’t know how either Yidden speaking it (English) or being sourced from German (Germans?) makes a language “holy”.
You probably have a better argument that Arabic is “Holy”, as not only is it similar to Aramaic and Hebrew, the Rambam (as well as others) also wrote many Seforim in that language.
Sounds like he followed the lead of the Aruch HaShulchan.
No, he sure didn’t. The Aruch Hashulchan (OC 75:8) specifically says that it is forbidden for a woman to go outside without her hair covered. He is only maikel regarding it being considered erva when a man must say a bracha, as long as the man cannot see her hair while he is reciting the blessing. But he decries in very strong words the women who didn’t cover their hair and does not justify it in the slightest.
Aruch Hashulchan 72:7: “Now let us come and cry out regarding the immodesty of our generation, because of our many sins. For many years (some) Jewish women have been neglectful regarding this transgression, and they go with uncovered hair. All which they (the leaders, rabbis) have screamed about this has not helped or accomplished anything. Now the plague has spread, that married women go about with their hair just like unmarried women! Woe to us that such has occurred in our days.”
Herschel Goldwasser essentially justified the crime, not denounced it like the AH”S. Which is why HaGaon HaRav Shlomo Miller shlit”a likened it to Aharon Chariner, whom the Chasam Sofer compared to Acher.
“Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein, of blessed memory, was a man of giant intellect, equally at home in the literature of the sages and of the world, a master talmudist, a profound exponent of Jewish thought, a deep and subtle thinker who loved English literature and whose spiritual horizons were vast.”
– the above was written by one of the leading figures in the MO community. He equates rabbi lichtenstiens gadlus bitorah with gadlus in literture. To the charedi community this korov liapakarsus. (I am not saying anything against rav lichtenstien . there is not necceserily anything wrong with knowing literture – perhaps it is even required altz torah im derech eretz. But to say that was an ikkar chelek of his gadlus is pretty silly.)
DaMoshe and mw13:
Let’s be very clear, since it should be offensive to any Torah Jew when they see anyone trying to adulterate the Torah and claim that as authentic.
The gedolim have declared unequivocally that MO is not a valid derech. See Joseph’s post linked on the first page for some quotes. There’s much more, though.
For example, Rav Shach strongly condemned (in writing) Rabbi Soloveichik (“the Rav”, in MO terms), stating specifically that his words (related to Zionism) were heretical to the point that it is shocking to even see this kefirah. The Imrei Emes wrote that Rabbi Kook, despite his great knowledge of Torah, cannot be a valid transmitter of the mesorah.
Both Rav Shach and the Imrei Emes wrote about these men (respectively) that their “ties” to the philosophies and movements of the time (e.g. Nationalism) is what caused them to write these terrible things, to project these heretical philosophies as Torah.
Since Rabbis Soloveichik and Kook are essentially the sole underpinning of MO theology, it follows that MO has absolutely no “mesorah” (including from Rav Hirsch whose views are also very much opposed to these heresies).
None of this should, CH”V, be taken as casting negativity on MO adherents who don’t know any better; they are likely simply following the misguided theology that they learned in their institutions.
But the fact remains that MO’s “derech” is absolutely baseless, no matter who professes it.
HaKatan – Only if you hold Zionism is a Pasul. Of course, as Rov Yisroel takes Tzoinishe money, how Pasul could it be? 🙂
Nobody calls Rav Kook MO. The only differnce between Rav Kook and other Charedi Rabbis was that he was very Zionistic which was controversial for his time
GAW:
No gadol holds that Zionism is “kosher”. To do so would be preposterous.
The “pasul” of Zionism, and the gedolim’s various statements about it, have been posted many times on these boards.
Satmar, to their credit, minimizes their interaction with the Zionists as much as possible. Others also do not take Zionist money.
But that’s not really relevant because the Zionists invaded Eretz Yisrael even though the Jews did not want them there and the Zionists therefore administer the infrastructure, etc. as much as the Jews wish they didn’t.
So Jews need not leave Eretz Yisrael just because the Zionists invaded, although Brisk seems to be getting a little closer to possibly leaving, as Rav Meshulam Dovid mentioned not that long ago.
ZD:
I did not mean to imply that Rabbi Kook was MO. But he is the basis for the heresy and idolatry (gedolim’s words) of “Religious Zionism” which is an essential tenet of the MO faith.
“Herschel Goldwasser essentially justified the crime”
My wife read the entire 83 page paper. She concluded that Rabbi Broyde had NOT made a convincing argument that married women did not need to cover their hair; she was convinced after reading it that it is a binding chiyuv d’rabbanan.
“He equates rabbi lichtenstiens gadlus bitorah with gadlus in literture. To the charedi community this korov liapakarsus. “
That is because the charedi community loses out in that they can’t understand the brilliance of the Torah of Rav Lichtenstein z’tz’l because they are unfamiliar with the literature he references.
That is because the charedi community loses out in that they can’t understand the brilliance of the Torah of Rav Lichtenstein z’tz’l because they are unfamiliar with the literature he references.
Was he unable to express his Torah without reference to literature? Or did he not care if people were able to understand it?
Or did that not happen?
I usually just read here but I felt the need to respond to those so arrogant as to slander the hashkafa of so many Orthodox yidden
To Hakatan and all the other am aratzim on this thread:
You don’t hold a finger to Rav Soloveitchik zt”l , Rav Kook zt”l, Rav Lichtenstein zt”l, or any other MO/ Zionist gedolim about whom you are so brazen to speak negatively about. You are way out of line. You will never be in the same stratosphere as any modern Orthodox gadol, whom are just as knowledgeable as any Haredi gadol. Shame on you
And we don’t need the approval of peasants for our lifestyle
I hope the mods will let this be posted.
Yes, just to show that being affiliated with any particular Hashkafah does not make one immune from Gaavah or Sinah.
regardless of his being right or wrong in content, you can’t call it gaiva to say your leaders are better than a random poster. vehemently defending the rabbeim you follow is actually the modus operandi around here.
What about calling others Am Hoaratzim and peasants?
Yes, that too is modus operandi
PBA: I heard the Mashal he gave was like a bagel and cream cheese. The Torah is like the bagel. It’s the important part and what sustains you. But sometimes, if you have the other knowledge to use in conjunction with it, it tastes even sweeter. The knowledge of the natural world (and, to him, literature) was like the cream cheese.
PBA: I heard the Mashal he gave was like a bagel and cream cheese. The Torah is like the bagel. It’s the important part and what sustains you. But sometimes, if you have the other knowledge to use in conjunction with it, it tastes even sweeter. The knowledge of the natural world (and, to him, literature) was like the cream cheese.
That is very much worth discussion.
I’m more targeting the assertion that he expressed his Torah in terms of literature in ways that people without knowledge of the literature therefore will miss out on his torah.
regardless of his being right or wrong in content, you can’t call it gaiva to say your leaders are better than a random poster. vehemently defending the rabbeim you follow is actually the modus operandi around here.
What about calling others Am Hoaratzim and peasants?
yes, that too is modus operandi here
Sam, the words of Torah are ?????? ???? ????? ????? on their own.
“the words of Torah are ?????? ???? ????? ????? on their own. “
While that is true, we all have our ways of relating and expressing ourselves; i.e. we are material beings in a material world.
PBA: They’d miss out on the cream cheese. 99% of what he quoted and discussed were Rishonim. So if you missed the two minutes he threw in Kirkegaard, that’s fine. You certainly would understand what he’s talking about.
DY: So? Even honey can be sweeter if you add more sugar. No one would eat the cream cheese straight. It’s only when on the bagel that it has value. That’s why the Moshol is apt.
“No gadol holds that Zionism is “kosher”.”
I would say that none hold of secular Zionism. We all believe in the coming of Mashiah and returning to the Land.
Sam, I disagree. Secular knowledge can be useful to understand Torah, but the Torah itself must remain unadulterated.
You are not merely tasting the bagel, you are tasting the cream cheese.
Rav Kook was a gadol, Even the Charedim thought so, they just did not like that he was too close to the early zionists
“Was he unable to express his Torah without reference to literature?”
If you have to even ask that question you are clearly unfamiliar with his work.
“Or did he not care if people were able to understand it?”
His students were well-educated and he spoke in language that they could understand.
If you read Milton, Blake, and Cardinal Newman you, too will understand.
“Secular knowledge can be useful to understand Torah”
My favorite example:
The Latin word “familia” appeared in a gemara we were learning. I immediately raised my hand to ask the maggid shiur why Chazal used “familia” and not “mishpacha”. Before he could respond a frum high school Latin teacher who was also in the shiur explained that in classical Latin, “familia” has a broader context than do the cognate words today, that it included not just relatives but slaves and servants. Chazal were deliberately using a broader term in order to be specific. Without that understanding from a secular source you would not understand exactly what Chazal meant.
Rav Kook, Rav Herzog, and Rav Soloveitchik all had good relationships with charedi gedolim even when they were disagreeing on secular education and Zionism. The language being used to attack them is really out of line here.
Charlie, where is that gemara?
I’m glad we found an example where studying latin for tens of thousands of hours can lead to figuring out one minor detail in a gemara.
I would like to posit that studying additional Torah for tens of thousands of hours would probably also lead to figuring out at least one minor detail.
“Was he unable to express his Torah without reference to literature?”
If you have to even ask that question you are clearly unfamiliar with his work.
“Or did he not care if people were able to understand it?”
His students were well-educated and he spoke in language that they could understand.
I’m a bit confused. First you seemingly take me to task for not being familiar with his works, but then you say that he spoke in a language that only his students could understand.
Also, for the record, his students were not well educated in literature. I’m friends with many alumni (alumnuses? alumnosouruses?) of Gush and they know less secular literature than I do.
I would like to posit that studying additional Torah for tens of thousands of hours would probably also lead to figuring out at least one minor detail.
For example, were he learning Talmud Yerushshalmi Sotah, and he came across the word “familia” and wasn’t sure if it included non family members of the household or not, he could spend hours studying Latin to figure it out, or hours learning Gemara, and having come across gemaras in Chullin and Sanhedrin using the same term, also figured it out.
Doesnt Rashi occasionally use French terms in his Perush
ZD, yes, he’s referring to Old French when he says “???”?”.
Too bad I don’t also have a doctorate in old french.
Charlie, the word “familia” is the same word we normally pronounce “pamalya” (see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/two-groaners) and is often found referring to the Heavenly Court, called “pamalya shel ma’alah”, and appears in the famous song “Kad Yasvun” attributed to the Vilna Gaon.
Charlie, the word “familia” is the same word we normally pronounce “pamalya” (see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/two-groaners) and is often found referring to the Heavenly Court, called “pamalya shel ma’alah”, and appears in the famous song “Kad Yasvun” attributed to the Vilna Gaon.
You might add: And is so widely known among bnei torah that VM used it in a joke.
ronald9:
Perhaps being MO (if we are peasants then I guess you are aristocracy?) prevents you from understanding that I merely quoted preeminent Torah giants. I did not attack anyone.
Unfortunately you seem to also not understand that a great amount of Torah knowledge does not guarantee gadlus baTorah or anything close to it. If one corrupts one’s mind with secular values, particularly if those foreign values are antithetical to Torah, then they end up with…anti-Torah things that MO rabbis have said, as per the greatest Torah sages.
I posted some examples earlier, such as Rabbi Kook’s claiming secular nationalism as Torah, as per the Imrei Emes.
If you disagree with the likes of the Brisker Rav (again, a generation BEFORE your “Rav”), Rav Shach, the Imrei Emes and others, you’re welcome to your opinion. But it would not be reasonable to expect others to concur.
MDG:
Zionism does not hold anything of the sort. Judaism, lihavdil, believes in the coming of Moshiach, may it be BB”A.
ZDad:
Nope. Please see my post above.
Charlie:
Having a good and even respectful relationship with someone does not at all condone acceptance or agreement with them or their views. Rabbi Kook, in particular, had immense political power, and others were certainly mindful of this.
Hi-
I always try to stay neutral, and stick up for the weaker side, or at least give perspective to those who don’t see it from the other side.
But I am quite fed up.
I am not modern orthodox. But I can proudly say that I genuinely love modern orthodox people. I became right wing after growing up modern orthodox, and at a point I would have considered myself chareidi. I used to stand in my MO shul and hiss at the “taf” instead of “saf”. I used to look at the people around me who didn’t follow halacha up to standard, whether they know its right or not (that is irrelevant and not for me to judge).
But I tapped into this part of me that tried to love them, but still secretly hated them. And I unlike of most of you (unless you come from the same background as me) have the right to hate it, because I came from it and left it. I realized that my whole reason of becoming more machmir, more aware of Halacha was to be a better Jew, but in the route of doing that I realized there was just this notion going around my “new crowd” that MO people weren’t frum. And it started to get to me. Because they ARE frum.
And so I started to deviate a little bit away from the chareidim, and now I stand here without a title. Why? So I can love everyone, because that is Hashem’s greatest Midda. And not to overgeneralize, because I respect and admire everyone here, but many of you, while trying to be impartial and say “I’m not saying the MO people who follow Halacha”, or “The ones who just learned blindly in their institutions” or “Zionism is pasul.”
It is irrelevent.
What they do, no offence, is irrelevent to you. You say it’s relevant because you care that they aren’t following the Torah. Maybe not to your standards, but to their standards they are. Until you go into an MO institution with unbiased eyes and tell me their shuls don’t have the same good (learning, daf yomi, minyanim, shiurim) and bad things (talking) as yours do, you should not be saying anything. If you TRUELY cared that they weren’t following Torah to your standard, you wouldn’t be typing it here and telling your children how false they are. You would embrace them, do “kiruv” the same way you would to someone who TRUEly isn’t frum. Maybe you all do that too, and shkoyach to those who do. But it seems as though you look down on MO community, which is totally wrong. You can say it’s not sinas chinam, but when you think about it, you are putting your serving Hashem as better than someone elses. That is most definitly not what we should be doing, even if we are 100% right.
And trust me I know a lot of people in the MO community who don’t love you guys too, who think you are too closed minded to appreciate that they are frum too. But the reason I voice myself to you is because I hold you guys to a higher standard. I would hope to see pure love. But I don’t. I see you all making loop holes why you can’t accept them. Acceptance doesn’t mean become them. Hopefully your strong enough to be yourself no matter what situation your placed in (if you aren’t, that’s fine, but you don’t have a right to put them down).
I hope mods let this through, I genuinly hope whoever reads this can think about what they are actually saying. I turned away from your true hashkafa only because of this exact one point: you* aren’t accepting and loving.
*you doesn’t mean everyone, I would just rather not point fingers. I know it isn’t everyone, and I even have respect for those that do talk like that- because they love Hashem so much they are willing to sacrafice everything for Hashem. I just think others feelings must be taken into account.
OURTorah:
I appreciate the sincerity and thoughts expressed in your posts. But I disagree with both its premise and conclusion.
None of us knows whom are anyone’s friends, whom are their family members, in which shul do they daven, which day schools/Yeshivos they attended, etc.
None of us also knows who is “accepting and loving” and (if any) who is not. I haven’t seen anything in this thread about hating MO people, CH”V.
To illustrate this point:
The Satmar Rav, a known great anti-Zionist, is reputed to have cried when he heard of an Israeli soldier that died. Why would an Anti-Zionist cry over the death of a Zionist soldier? Because that soldier happened to be a Jew.
VERY importantly, however, this did not change even one iota his definition of right and wrong. Zionism was still the same tumah, heresy, idolatry, shmad, et al. as it was before. But he still mourned that Jew.
Unless someone explicitly states it, I don’t think you have a right to accuse anyone that they “aren’t accepting and loving”.
Just to further clarify the point, and not to make a direct comparison:
If you knew of a Reform or Conservative (or perhaps something less offensive) community that was successful, happy, learned lots of Torah and thought they were the greatest Jews alive, how would you respond if they posted here “so we all agree that we have a legitimate derech, too, right?”
Unfortunately, the answer to that question is, of course, “Absolutely not; you do not have a valid derech.” That doesn’t mean we love MO any less than we do Traditional Orthodox Jews. But we dare not accept as a valid Torah derech, anything that is, lihavdil, heresy or idolatry, or even general laxity, as stated by our gedolim.
In addition, this point remains even if this hypothetical Reform or Conservative group were the greatest philanthropists in the world and learned Torah 24/7. Because, very simply, a valid Torah derech cannot have in it anything that is against the Torah.
And side note- when I say respect and accept the other, I’m not saying you cannot disagree, of course you can. But the way you talk on here is disagreeing with an ugly tone. With a tone that looks down upon them. That is what I am referring to. It’s saying that you are a Torah Jew and they aren’t. That’s not disagreeing that’s putting them down. They aren’t doing kefira- they literally follow the same Torah you do. If your sad about how influenced they are by society then daven for them, don’t say that they aren’t being frum. Get your minds around the fact that every person is different. What you see on the outside might not truley reflect the inside. So please please PLEASE stop calling people names (ronald9) don’t call out your own brother on not being frum. If t was your own biological brother you would hopefully embrace them no matter what hashkafa they hold.
Ha katan- have you ever been to an MO institution? Did you grow up MO? What is your personal exposure?
Hakatan I have an author whom I strongly recommend. Called the Rambam. Judging by your stance on secular studies you’ve obviously never opened one of his sefarim. But maybe he’s not gadol in your eyes.
Again MO Judaism is not one iota less legitimate than whatever you call yourselves. And again so sorry those gedolim I posted are on par with reform rabbis in your holy eyes. Your gaivah is truly astounding. Why don’t you spend less time in the coffee room lecturing those less kodesh than you and go open up a mussar sefer.
Imagine a mo yid ripping on Rav Kanievsky ch”v. Now switch it around and you have Hakatan belittling Torah giants who espoused a different hashkafa. You’re not in their league, or even within 10000 leagues of their toenail. Enough.
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