MUST READ- Real Solutions to the Internet Challenge

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  • #603590
    AZ
    Participant

    http://www.madisontitle.com/tempdoc/KinusBrochure.zip

    The brochure includes:

    Challenges of our times, chochmo bagoyim tamin, solutions etc.

    I think the content of this extensive booklet will be VERY agreeable to all.

    This was what the Asifa was supposed to be about.

    What went wrong is not important.

    #922502
    Naysberg
    Member

    This is very helpful. But it must be said, the Asifa was absolutely wonderful and as close to perfection as possible.

    #922504
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I heard a decision was made not to distribute said booklet because R’ Matisyahu Shlita had an issue with something contained within, why are you distributing it?

    #922505
    AZ
    Participant

    APY:

    Don’t trust everything you heard becaseu it’s not true.

    I’ll take my chances after 120 with people who see this booklet.

    If you care about someone you’ll send them the link.

    It’s a wonderful piece of work.

    #922506

    AZ, why wasn’t this distributed then??

    #922507
    boysmom
    Participant

    The booklet doesn’t mention anything about a filter for a windows phone. Does anyone know of one?

    #922508
    AZ
    Participant

    RE: filter for a windows phone

    Call TAG (Technology Awareness Group). They will assist you.

    718 437 1TAG

    718 437 1824

    #922510
    apushatayid
    Participant

    What you ignored is, why you felt it appropriate to distribute something, the organizers deliberately chose not to.

    As an aside, how do you think they would feel about its distribution online?

    #922511
    jbaldy22
    Member

    @AZ “I think the content of this extensive booklet will be VERY agreeable to all.” you have to be kidding me my faith has been renewed in Rav Mattisyahu Solomon assuming he was the one who rejected this the beginning about filters is fine but the rest is anti-internet propaganda it is not helpful at all and would be a very big chillul hashem it does not appear to me that you read the whole pamphlet – this would have turned off a lot of people from looking at solutions.

    #922512
    MorahRach
    Member

    The Asifa is definitely the most talked about thing as of late of ywn. It is so silly to me that everyone is still on here, talking about the issur of Internet and arguing with each other. Do people realize how foolish it seems to others? I have made no such commitment but, come on folks.

    #922513
    AZ
    Participant

    APY:

    I received permission from the organizers to distribute it.

    #922514
    jbaldy22
    Member

    @MorahRach this is one of the most important issues of our generation and you think that it is foolish that people are discussing it? You can keep your condescension.

    #922515
    avhaben
    Participant

    AZ:

    What was the reason it was decided not to distribute this booklet and to cancel the planned exhibition at 5:00? Who made that decision and what was their concern that caused them to not want it?

    And what other things about the Asifa bothered you?

    #922516
    msseeker
    Member

    I’m getting rid of my internet but I need a few weeks to download everything I’ll need, like books and software to use instead. For example, I ordered encyclopedias to use for research and instead of dictionary.com. Any other ideas are welcome.

    #922517
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    msseeker:

    I totally agree with your choice. There is no reason for a Chassidishe Lady to be on the internet. In most cases, I would suggest that you use the internet at your local library. In your case though, you are doing the right thing by preparing.

    Hatzlacha!

    #922518
    MorahRach
    Member

    Did I say the Asifa was foolish???????? Did I at all????? I said people seem foolish for constantly starting new threads, online…about the Asifa. Get off the Internet then!!!!!! It makes Zero sense to me. Ywn is not for your Parnassa, you are on hear to give mussar about how dire it is to get rid of Internet. That is foolish if you are going to spend the better part of your day writing about it.. Online.

    #922519
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What was the reason it was decided not to distribute this booklet and to cancel the planned exhibition at 5:00? Who made that decision and what was their concern that caused them to not want it?

    There are groups who are opposed to the interent altogether , they were against the Expo and the booklets. In order to accomodate these groups they agreed to their demands

    #922520
    AZ
    Participant

    Av Haben:

    I am convinced you are trolling so i won’t respond but zahavasdad got the gist of it.

    The gave away their original motto “you can’t live with it, you can’t live without it”.

    They gave away having women attend,

    They gave away the expo

    They gave away distribution of the booklet

    They gave away the message of using technology responsibly al pi torah.

    It became DO NOT USE TECHNOLOGY

    Thus the actual event wasn’t broadcast on the internet (wouldn’t that have been a responsible way to use technology??)

    B”H for now hopefully with the asifa behind us and forgotten.

    Each kehilla will move forward and for the most part disregard what was said at the asifa, and guide their kehilla as they see fit.

    #922521
    msseeker
    Member

    GAW, oh yes, there’s good reason for me. It’s really convenient for my work, but not absolutely essential. It’ll be pretty hard, but I feel the sacrifice is worth it.

    #922522
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Unfortunately, in the eyes of some they also gave away their credibility.

    #922524
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    msseeker:

    B’derech Klal, Chassidish ladies work as parents, which is the best thing that a mother can do, and the husbands work.

    If you are a “Yotze min Haklal”, and your Rebba said that you should work, then you should speak to him regarding internet as well. As far as you know, he may have good resons why you SHOULD have internet.

    As we always say here, ask your LOR.

    #922525
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Here is a text version of the introduction to the brochure which was supposed to have been distributed at the asifa. I will try topost more of it as I am able to format it.

    Throughout our generations of wandering since we entered this long and bitter golus, our nation has been faced with many trials. Only by standing together and remaining firmly entrenched in the faith of our fathers have we persevered. Yet today we find ourselves threatened by a test of frightening magnitude, one that has already done untold harm to our people. It is an unseen adversary that jeopardizes our very existence.

    To place this evening in its proper perspective, the following critical points must be underscored:

    Internet Solutions

    There is no excuse for using the internet where it is not absolutely necessary.

    Anyone who need not expose himself to a dangerous and highly contagious disease is forbidden by the Torah to do so, even if he takes all possible precautions.

    Uniting Against the Threat

    The Gedolim have urged Klal Yisrael to gather as one to fight a common enemy. The problem is truly universal, and requires a united front to deal with. At this historic asifa, we must establish a basic standard for everyone to adhere to in their relation with the internet.

    The purpose of our gathering together is to unify Klal Yisrael in recognizing the problem that affects all of us. Every Jew in every community must commit to dealing with it. The asifa will help us all understand what daas Torah dictates as the minimum safeguards that must be in place when we use the internet.

    Of course, each kehillah must have its own Rav, Rosh Yeshiva or Rebbe to serve as its guide in all areas of life. This issue is no exception. Every kehillah may build on these basic standards according to the needs of its members. Praiseworthy are the communities that are able to implement even higher and better standards!

    A Unique Opportunity

    We are one nation and our gathering together tonight was intended to emphasize this point. Many of our actions and decisions are directly affected by those around us. For example, most of us have little temptation to work on Shabbos or eat non-kosher food, because we draw strength from our peers and the community around us.

    This can be a powerful tool in the service of Hashem. At the same time, however, it makes our observance of the Torah and mitzvos much less personal. How much reward do we deserve for a mitzvah we may be keeping largely due to peer pressure?

    We must recognize this uniquely personal nisayon as a golden opportunity. Perhaps more than in any other area of our Torah-based lives, the internet gives us the opportunity to display our love for Hashem and our determination to fulfill His will.

    Each time a Jew holds himself back from visiting a website that he knows is not appropriate, from one wrong click, he is acting out his pure love and fear of Hashem. It is a moment to be tapped in to; a moment that calls out for reflection and prayer.

    Maintaining our purity when dealing with the internet is a supreme expression of our dedication to and love for Hashem!

    In Conclusion

    May your participation in this once-in-a-lifetime event carry you through all the trials you will face in life, and may this merit earn you unlimited blessings from above, for good health, abundant wealth and happiness for you and all of your family!

    *** ???? ??

    #922526
    Patri
    Member

    Is this the booklet they intend to distribute at the Flatbush Internet Asifa?

    Rav Solomon shlita will be there. So everyone can confirm he supports the psak announced at the main Asifa.

    #922527
    koachshtika
    Member

    The real solution is the same as for all challenges, exercise self-control.

    #922528
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This is the booklet that was intended to be distributed at Citi Field. I don’t know if it will be distributed in Flatbush.

    Note to moderator: the websites at the end of this piece were printed in the booklet, so please allow the entire post through; thanks.

    Family Security And Issues Of Lifnei Iveir

    Rabbi Yosef Viener

    Question:

    I have internet in my home and office, and a friendof mine claims that if I do not filter or monitor the content, I could be violating the issur of lifnei iveir lo sitei michshol. He argues that my allowing unrestricted internet use by my family and employees will no doubt cause them spiritual harm, and the responsibility for the damage will be partially my fault. This concept is new to me. Is it indeed necessary for me to install the proper filtering software, or is it merely a suggestion for those who want to be machmir?

    Answer:

    We are going to discuss an issue that might seem like an old topic, because there have been many gatherings to address the issue. Much to my surprise and chagrin, however, the message does not seem to have hit home. The security we will discuss is that of the sanctity of the family, which is currently suffering from the most insidious and dangerous attack ever leveled against it: the internet.

    Yet, people are either oblivious to the danger or are deliberately choosing not to focus on it.

    The rest of the advice in this essay is addressed to those who must have internet access.

    No One is Immune to Harmful Influence

    Before we move onto the practical realm of how to deal with the internet, it is important to address those people who feel that their families are impervious to the temptation provided by the internet.

    One lesson we learn, then, is that no one can claim that he is impervious to the temptation of the internet. We must all seek ways to protect and distance ourselves from this threat to our spiritual security.

    But there is another important lesson that we can learn from the story of Yitzchak and Yishmael. All of the forms of security we are about to discuss will help only for our own homes. The safeguards we put into place will not help if we do not know where our children are at all times, with whom they are associating, and what those children are exposed to and able to access.

    So while we will discuss what can be done to protect our own homes, it is equally vital that you know where your children are going each time they leave the house. It sounds wearisome, but a momentary lapse in your vigilance can introduce them to a yetzer hara that is extremely difficult to fight.

    The Case of Shloimy

    fateful weekend, Shloimy began a descent on the slippery slope that has felled so many.

    internet access.

    Certainly, Hashem gave us a gift called teshuvah, and just as a computer has a delete button, Hashem can help a person delete those images as well. However, if the proper precautions are not taken, a relapse is possible at any time. An integral part of the teshuvah process is ensuring that the proper steps are taken to help mitigate the possibility of transgression.

    Issur Yichud with a Computer

    [the mitzvah to refrain] [such sins]. One should refrain from yichud, because it is the greatest cause [for sins of this nature]

    This boy explained that when he started failing in this area, he sank into a deep depression, certain that he was depraved and that no one else was struggling with this desire. Once I explained that it was normal, he felt that he could deal with it.

    Filtering and Accountability

    Let me outline the system that I feel must be in place on every computer that has internet access, whether at home or in the office. Again, the best solution is still to have no internet access in the first place, but in cases where that is not an option, we need to have a two-tiered security system comprised of filtering software and reporting software.

    Some programs do both filtering and reporting, and some do only one of the two; you can install more than one program on your system to provide comprehensive coverage.

    Let me explain the purpose and operating method of each of the two types of software.

    Filtering Software

    In addition, a determined child (or adult) can figure out a way to work around a filter so that he (or she) can get to the inappropriate material, or he can stumble on the password for the filter and disable it.

    It is therefore imperative that you add the second layer of protection: a reporting system.

    Reporting Software

    Employing this two-tiered system is the only way to have internet access without presenting a clear and present danger to the sanctity of our homes. Many people who have suffered from an internet addiction have been cured after installing such software and being forced to face a rav or Rebbi who actually took the time to read the reports and contact their mispallel or talmid and discuss it, thu successfully weaning him off of the addiction.

    I cannot overemphasize the need for the reporting software. Filtering is simply not enough. The people who invent these reporting programs consider it so vital that when you set up the options for the frequency at which the reports will be generated, you will notice that one of the options is to have a report sent every hour. If the team that created this software realized how dangerous the internet is, how much more so should we.

    A Word on Passwords

    Toward Greater Productivity: Internet at Home

    Toward Greater Productivity: Internet in the Workplace

    Similarly, if you are an employee in a firm and you sit alone in an office with a computer that is not filtered, make sure to get the computer technician in your office to place a filtering and reporting system on your computer. If it is impossible to make such changes in your office, perhaps it is time to reevaluate your working there. Remember, turning the Shechinah away from you will only hurt your parnassah prospects.

    A Note to Women

    Chazal teach that women lead the way when it comes to maintaining the sanctity of the home. In Parashas Bo, Pharaoh offers to allow the men to go serve Hashem in the wilderness, as long as the women and children would remain in Mitzrayim. In Divrei Aggadah, Harav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv explains that Pharaoh realized that if the men were allowed to serve Hashem on their own, they would not last long. They could only succeed if the women were backing and supporting them in their efforts.

    Please do not assume that you are not in danger as well. Although women are generally not as susceptible to the yetzer haras that plague men, the enticing nature of the web can (and unfortunately does) ensnare both genders.

    A small sampling of the many filter and reporting programs available:

    For a rundown on these and other filter programs, see internet-filter-review at www. toptenreviews.com. Also, see the Re-Solutions section of this publication.

    #922529
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “There is no excuse for using the internet where it is not absolutely necessary.”

    This is why everyone needs a Rav. What is necessary for me, may not be necessary for you. Perhaps there should be a prequel Asifa, discussing the need for everyone to have a Rav.

    #922530
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The following is a selection of some of the many stories of people who have

    fallen victim to the internet. They are far from the worst stories, but they reflect

    the broadest spectrum of people, experiences and communities.

    And yet, bad as we may think it is, the destructive influence of the internet is worse than people imagine. It is chilling to think about. Yet, this is the reality we live in.

    How the Internet Ruined Me Financially

    A chill runs up my spine as I recall the dismal levels to which I had sunk before Hashem guided me to the help I desperately needed in the nick of time. It is unnecessary to relate the entire chain of events in all its gory details. It is enough that I describe to you just the tip of the iceberg, enough to help you imagine just how destructive this technology can be, sans the proper precaution.

    It all started when I entered into a partnership with my friend, opening an online business together.

    I was delighted that I no longer had to haul heavy boxes or answer to a demanding boss. I was the luckiest person on earth, or at least

    I gradually became more and more hooked on this miracle technology, and I would spend hours upon hours in its tentacles. Everything fascinated me and I left nothing unexplored. It came to a point that I simply did not have enough hours in

    my day to visit all my favorite websites, to chatwith all my electronic friends, read all the interesting blogs and surf around the endless sea of the internet. I just had to spend every spare second I had in cyberspace. I would often tell my wife

    that I had to return to the office in the evening to finish up some business, and then I would sit there well past midnight, clicking my way through the

    great wide cyber world.

    But I finally had my rude awakening when I was struck with a heavy financial blow. My partner eventually realized that I was fooling around and my part of the work was not getting done properly. One dark Wednesday, after an acrimonious

    exchange, I found myself without a partner and without a job.

    job. This was now my official occupation all day long. I fooled myself into thinking I would find other employment shortly. Obviously, however, you find nothing by floating through cyberspace, except for more problems.

    #922531
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Koachshtikah,

    A quote from Rav Viener’s essay: “One lesson we learn, then, is that no one can claim that he is impervious to the temptation of the internet. We must all seek ways to protect and distance ourselves from this threat to our spiritual security.”

    #922532
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    koachshtika, I sort of agree with you, though I’d say it a little differently: The real solution is to give each of us the confidence and tools to overcome our yetzer harah, and not let the yetzer harah control us by deceiving ourselves into believing that we are powerless over it.

    #922533
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It would be so wonderful if we all had self control, or if you prefer, the confidence and tools to overcome our yetzer harah. Alas, for many,the yetzer horah is stronger.

    Here’s another story of someone who fell, lo aleinu. (Aside from these printed in the brochure from which I quote, there are thousands more. Many thought they had the self control/confidence and tools…)

    Hitting Rock Bottom

    It was as if I was glued to my chair in front of the computer and nothing could entice me to leave it. And when I absolutely had to leave, i.e. to go home for dinner or the like, it was always with much reluctance, and I impatiently schemed how I could quickly return to the magic of the screen. Not surprisingly, this addiction came at a cost.

    And then came Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year. At one point in the middle of davening, I paused to take stock of my ruchnius, or lack of same. I was overcome by a sudden surge of profound regret. I let my tears flow unabashedly as I thought about my abysmal state. Would Hashem ever forgive me? By motzei Yom Kippur I felt cleansed. I experienced a measure of tranquility that had eluded me for months.

    Today, I spend much of my time doing teshuvah and being mispallel that Hashem forgive me for all that I have wrought. But I know only too well that the decadence and indecency that I have imbibed will not soon dissipate and will always come back to haunt me. I no longer have a computer, but I do have a BlackBerry, albeit with a J-net filter.

    #922534
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    MP,

    You’re talking about a very wonderful ideal – that everyone had the tools to overcome the yetzer horah, and always utilized them, without any external help. We don’t live in such a world, though.

    If we did, we could leave our doors unlocked at night.

    If we did, Chaza”l would never have had to institute any gezeiros.

    If we did, we wouldn’t daven “al t’vieinu lidei nisayon” because we would relish the challenge.

    Rather, we are supposed to dread sin and distance ourselves as much as possible, especially as it pertains to these specific desires.

    #922535
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Hitting Rock Bottom

    It was as if I was glued to my chair in front of the computer and nothing could entice me to leave it. And when I absolutely had to leave, i.e. to go home for dinner or the like, it was always with much reluctance, and I impatiently schemed how I could quickly return to the magic of the screen. Not surprisingly, this addiction came at a cost.

    And then came Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year. At one point in the middle of davening, I paused to take stock of my ruchnius, or lack of same. I was overcome by a sudden surge of profound regret. I let my tears flow unabashedly as

    I thought about my abysmal state. Would Hashem ever forgive me? By motzei Yom Kippur I felt cleansed. I experienced a measure of tranquility that had eluded me for months.

    Today, I spend much of my time doing teshuvah and being mispallel that Hashem forgive me for all that I have wrought. But I know only too well that the decadence and indecency that I have imbibed will not soon dissipate and will always come back to haunt me. I no longer have a computer, but I do have a BlackBerry, albeit with a J-net filter.

    Trust me. I know.

    #922536
    apushatayid
    Participant

    DY. The Skverre Rebbe Shlita disagrees with you. He is on record as having said, a person filled with yiras shamayim and a healthy entusiasm for yiddishkeit is unlikely to fall victim to the internet. Unfortunately, too many people live, what R’ Shafier Shlita calls, “robotic judaism”, they are bored and unenthusiatic aboit yiddishkeit. Into that void comes the lure and excitement of “the internet”. It need not be the dark seedy side of the web, it could be something as silly as spending all ones waking hours playing solitair. In conjunction with facing the challenge of the web, is an even greater challenge, how to instill in each and every person the enthusiasm for yiddishkeit and the yiras shamayim that leaves no void for anything labeled “tuma”to enter. enters.

    #922537
    Chulent
    Member

    apushatayid: And there is no internet connectivity in any home in New Square. I’m pleased you appreciate the Skverrer Rebbe’s position on this matter. (Which is the reason no home in NS has internet.)

    #922538
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    APY,

    There is nothing in your presentation of the Rebbe Shlita”s viewpoint which I disagree with.

    I’m not sure why you think there is.

    I’m sure you don’t imagine that the Rebbe Shlit”a has internet access.

    #922539
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    When I Lost My Husband

    It is not easy to talk about it, but it is crucial for people to hear about the havoc that the internet can leave in its wake. Until recently, I would never have believed that the internet could so effectively destroy someone. Even today, I do not entirely comprehend the powerful grip it could extend to the point that a normal intelligent person loses complete control of himself. But, simply put, it happened to me.

    silly tricks and stunts and other nonsense), chat with pals he befriended on the internet (for which he even set up a microphone system), play games for hours on end, manage bank accounts, do computer-related favors for family members like finding the cheapest prices for anything they might want to purchase, Googling any phone number or address they needed, and providing them with computerized directions to any destination. And last but not least, checking for new emails every few seconds and then forwarding them on to others. I felt he was interested in everything in the world except me. I simply did not hold his interest.

    Nothing. Zero.

    Save your shalom bayis before it is too late.

    #922540
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    “MP,

    You’re talking about a very wonderful ideal – that everyone had the tools to overcome the yetzer horah, and always utilized them, without any external help. We don’t live in such a world, though.”

    DY, first off, I don’t really intend on getting into another discussion about this with you, though our first one was pleasant and civil, and I thank you for that. But I just want to say a few things:

    Of course we currently don’t live in a world such as the one I described. If we did, there would be no reason for any concern. But I believe that is what we should be STRIVING for. It is not unattainable. Now, you said “without any external help”. I believe, as I’ve said before, that having external help (such as filters) is a very good thing. But it’s not THE solution. It’s just a temporary patch on a problem that runs deeper. External help doesn’t take away the source of the problem. INTERNAL strength is what does.

    Thank you for posting all those tragic stories about people who’ve ruined themselves, and their families, due to making bad choices on the internet. But you see, those stories are the ones that people tell over to everyone, and that gets everyone scared that they will fall to the same fate, and that having proper control and responsibility is impossible. But we don’t hear about all the people who use the internet responsibly, and that’s because there are no issues to report. All your stories scare people into believing that they are powerless, and the the INTERNET is the problem, that the internet is some vast, poisonous beast that is evil and tears us apart no matter what we do. But the real problem is not the internet, it is US. When WE make bad choices, when WE don’t have the skills, maturity, and control necessary, we fall pray to our yetzer harahs. It’s the bad choices that are the PRIMARY cause of a person’s destruction, not the tool used to make those choices. And the internet is just a means that the yetzer harah uses, it’s merely a tool, and because of it’s ease of access and opportunity to lead us into BOTH (good and bad) extremes, it has become the easiest way for our yetzer harahs to control us.

    It is when people view the internet ITSELF as evil, as a sin in itself, that we have these issues. But that is a very warped perspective of what the internet is, and people get that perspective when fed all these horror stories and are forced into believing that they have no control, and never will. It’s only a nisayon if you make it out to be one. But it doesn’t have to be one. I would say though, that while a person doesn’t have the skills, confidence, and maturity to use the internet responsibly (which may be many frum people, at this point), having a filter or supervision is vital, because without the control necessary, everything you are saying is correct, and it is a nisayon, and caution is of the highest importance. But if we really want to solve this problem, we must be able to believe that we DO have the capabilities to use the internet responsibly, we CAN have the control necessary, and just that confidence alone can provide a major step in the right direction.

    #922541
    Naysberg
    Member

    MP: Most people who leave a loaded gun on their dining room table, their kids don’t kill themselves or a sibling with it. It is only the horror stories that you hear about. So it really is okay to leave a loaded gun on your dining room table.

    #922542
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    MP,

    Since Adam Harishon, we’ve had a yetzer horah, and that isn’t changing. We have to deal in that reality.

    Rav Mattisyahu Salomon has said on many occasions that the internet is not evil, just a nisayon. You appear to have been misled into thinking that there’s a campaign to call the internet evil. There isn’t. There’s a campaign to educate (in some cases, in very forceful ways), that it’s potentially dangerous, and must be treated as such. But it’s not about calling it evil, just a very powerful tool i the hands of the yetzer horah.

    On e comment of yours really puzzles me. You write, “It’s only a nisayon if you make it out to be one. But it doesn’t have to be one.” What does that mean? It is one! Can someone decide that yichud “doesn’t have to be” a nisayon and therefore ignore those halachos? HKB”H wired us a certain way, and demands of us that we deal with that reality, not in a world of ideals.

    The Gemara says, “???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???, ?????? ???”? ?????, ???? ???? ??”, that without Hashem’s help, we are unable to overcome the yetzer hora. The “confidence” you speak about is misplaced. One can only be confident that he can overcome the yetzer hora if he has Hashem’s help. How can one expect Hashem’s help when he doesn’t follow His guidelines?!

    My next post, also copied from the Kinus Brochure, will highlight the aspect of the need for yiras shomayim.

    #922543
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We know that everyone who needs the internet needs ways of protecting

    Simchas HaChaim Foundation).

    QUESTION

    When saying Shema Yisrael, what should you think about?

    ANSWER

    That is one kavanah [one meditation]

    [See also: Sing, You Righteous, para. 470-476.]

    #922544
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m told, someone please correct me if I’m wrong, that in NS, those who are allowed to have an internet connection (for whatever reason) may have one, however, it may not be in their home, it may be in their neighbors home.

    Be that as it may, my point was, and is, everyone is harping on “the internet” and not focusing on the other portion of his statement. Excitement for yiddishkeit. Filled with yiras shamayim. Where is discussion about that part of the equation? If that remains neglected, the “internet” will just be replaced by something else.

    #922545
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Naysberg, you are coming from exactly the same angle as DY, and essentially saying the same thing, just using an analogy instead. You are comparing children with loaded guns, who lack the maturity to use them properly, to particular adults who lack proper responsibility to use the internet. And your analogy would work when referring to those particular adults. My point is that adults can be responsible, attain the necessary skills to make the right decisions, and be in control. And for those adults, your analogy doesn’t work at all. Whereas children generally cannot be trusted with guns, adults who are responsible, are. Children don’t generally have the maturity to use a gun. But adults do. We generally trust adults with guns, unless they’re lunatics. And adults also have the maturity to be able to use the internet properly. I am referring to mature adults in my post. And those tragic stories that DY posted are of adults who DIDN’T have that maturity and responsibility. Regarding children with the internet, OF COURSE it is unsafe to allow children unsupervised internet access, because they generally won’t be able to understand why certain things are not good for them, and how much it can affect them. There will come a time when the children grow up, and will be able to learn those things, and it is very important that they do.

    #922546
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    APY,

    Possibly, the moderator on duty is scared of copyright issues, although I see no problem since the PDF of the brochure has been made publicly available (I’ve just copied, reformatted, and pasted).

    It’s clear to me, from the words of Chaza”l, that a yarei shomayim is supposed to impose gedarim on himself to avoid sin, and not merely rely on his yiras shomayim.

    #922547
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    MP,

    Who determines which adults DO have the necessary maturity and responsibility to avoid the pitfalls of the web?

    #922548
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    DY, very good points. Though I would say that in some circles, there most definitely IS a campaign to show that the internet is evil. And even in other circles where that isn’t the campaign, we see a common human characteristic, which is shifting blame when we don’t want to face an uncomfortable truth. For example, in many of those stories you posted about people who had made bad choices and didn’t take control of their yetzer harahs, there are some lines that portray this idea:

    For one of the stories, the title is “How the Internet ruined me financially”. That title is very wrong. He HIMSELF ruined himself financially, by having a lack of maturity and responsibility, and the tool he used was the Internet.

    Now, here’s a problem. You said “There’s a campaign to educate (in some cases, in very forceful ways), that it’s potentially dangerous, and must be treated as such.” Now, the people who didn’t yet know that internet can be potentially dangerous probably don’t have the internet. So they are probably clueless about using the internet altogether, for good or bad. So “educating” them strongly about the dangers it contains will most definitely cause them to believe that the internet IS BAD.

    If I grew up not knowing anything about guns, and then my parent told me that guns kill people, and said countless stories that show it, I will think that guns are completely evil. That is NOT proper education. Proper education is showing, yes, guns can be used for bad, but they do have a positive side as well (and in the case of guns, it is for self defense, so it’s not exactly a good analogy), and showing the benefits of using a gun properly, and showing, and understanding, the downsides of using it improperly. That is real education.

    I agree that we have a yetzer harah. That is the reality. But the reality is also that we have the ability to overcome it. And yes, you are most definitely right, having siyatta dishmayah is a key component in overcoming it. But we must make our OWN efforts, and yes, having filters is an effort, but a greater effort is to try to gain the maturity and responsibility to exercise self control. THAT is real effort. That shows Hashem that we are really trying, and in turn, Hashem will help us too in overcoming the grasp of the yetzer harah. But if we don’t have the confidence to even try that, then we’ll never get anywhere. So the confidence I speak of is, I don’t think, misplaced, rather it is a goal. It may not be where we are holding now, but it where we should want to be.

    About the nisayon aspect, you are right. I was very wrong in saying that it doesn’t have to be a nisayon, because it IS a nisayon. I should have said “It doesn’t have to be an insurmountable nisayon. It can be a nisayon that we are able to deal with.” I think the reason I said that it doesn’t have to be a nisayon is because that is how I have been able to live my life. I’m not sure if you are aware of my family issues, though I mentioned them on a few other threads, but suffice it to say that I went through, and continue to go through, extremely difficult situations because of my father.

    And the main thing that has kept me going is realizing how the situation I was put in is really ideal for me and the best way for me to grow to my full potential. So I am using my “nisayon” in a way that shows that it really isn’t the nisayon it seems to be. Rather, it is the best thing for me. Are there difficult times? Yes. But those difficulties continue to make me a better person. And I believe that is true with any nisayon. Yes, we shouldn’t run after them, but if we do encounter them, we should realize that it is an opportunity for us to grow and become more holy. And this idea is in one of your posts:

    “We must recognize this uniquely personal nisayon as a golden opportunity. Perhaps more than in any other area of our Torah-based lives, the internet gives us the opportunity to display our love for Hashem and our determination to fulfill His will.

    Each time a Jew holds himself back from visiting a website that he knows is not appropriate, from one wrong click, he is acting out his pure love and fear of Hashem. It is a moment to be tapped in to; a moment that calls out for reflection and prayer.

    We are declaring through our actions: ‘Hashem, I am Your son! I love You and I want You to be proud of me! Help me overcome my yetzer hara, help me fulfill Your will!'”

    #922549
    apushatayid
    Participant

    And the skverre rebbe is saying that one who is filled with yiras shamayim is unlikely to fall victim of the internet. He implies strongly, that ingredient is missing.

    Take away “the inernet”, great, the nisayon will just manifest itself in some other way. I’m not into predictions and won’t say what that might be, but someone who is not equipped to handle a nisayon, is not helped in the long term when his immediate nisayon is removed from him, the yetzer hara will simply find another for him. These are band aid solutions, and very good ones, but long term, a generation steeped in yiras shamayim will easily recognize a nisayon for what it is and deal with it. Of course there will always be individuals who do not or can not, but won’t reach a tipping point where gedolim feel the need to fill citi field and address it.

    #922550
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Skeverer Rebbe attended the asifa.

    If people had proper yiras shomayim, they would take the proper precautions.

    One who doesn’t take appropriate precautions is not a yarei shomayim.

    #922551
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Little Anecdotes of Internet Victims

    A businessman relates:

    We once encountered a problem with our computers at the office. Everything began going ever so slowly and freezing. I needed to call an internet technician. His diagnosis was that a virus had entered through one computer and infected the entire network. He found the computer that had started it all, which belonged to a certain young man who had been working at the company for many years.

    After taking care of the problem, he showed me the history of that computer, which included everything our employee had been up to. It emerged that this employee had been spending hours on countless websites that had no connection to his work duties. And I had only become aware of this after he had been working here for three years! (As an aside, according to the computer technician, the virus had entered the computer through one of the decadent websites.)

    #922552
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In my mind, saying “the poisonous internet” is basically saying “the evil internet”

    I disagree. Poison also has it’s positive uses. Which is why it’s a powerful metaphor.

    So the confidence I speak of is, I don’t think, misplaced, rather it is a goal. It may not be where we are holding now, but it where we should want to be.

    Dovid Hamelech had that goal, but failed his test. We are to take a lesson from him that this is not where our avodas Hashem is. Our job is to avoid nisayon wherever possible, and, yes, build ourselves so that the nisyonos which will inevitably come will be conquerable.

    Yes, we shouldn’t run after them, but if we do encounter them, we should realize that it is an opportunity for us to grow and become more holy.

    I think in this paragraph you said it better than I did.

    In my view, the Citifield asifa, the directives issued, and all of the follow up is directed at the first line in that paragraph.

    For all practical purposes, based on human nature, allowing oneself such free and easy access to the temptations available on the internet is running after nisyonos. In the scheme of things, a filter, or refraining from an internet connection altogether, is merely a tool. But the magnitude of the problem, with lo aleinu thousands of “korbonos”, necessitated that a spotlight be shone on this tool.

    #922553
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    DY, regardless of the technical definition of “poisonous”, I doubt the author had that in mind. As for the rest of what you said, we both agree that trying to avoid nisyonos, when we can, is a good thing. But we obviously just disagree on whether the internet is an “avoidable” nisayon. I say it’s not, and therefore, we must properly educate ourselves on how to deal with it. You obviously think it is. And again, for what feels like the 5th or 6th time, I think filters are a good thing, you don’t need to convince me of that. And quite honestly, I feel that I don’t need to say anything more because just about every point I’ve made in my previous post holds ground. And you’ve made some great points as well. So that’s all that needs to be said. Thank you for this discussion.

    Just one question though: Something that I quoted in my last post from one of your posts seems to be something that you would vehemently argue with, and so I wonder what you think of it. Here’s the quote:

    “We must recognize this uniquely personal nisayon as a golden opportunity. Perhaps more than in any other area of our Torah-based lives, the internet gives us the opportunity to display our love for Hashem and our determination to fulfill His will.

    Each time a Jew holds himself back from visiting a website that he knows is not appropriate, from one wrong click, he is acting out his pure love and fear of Hashem. It is a moment to be tapped in to; a moment that calls out for reflection and prayer.

    We are declaring through our actions: ‘Hashem, I am Your son! I love You and I want You to be proud of me! Help me overcome my yetzer hara, help me fulfill Your will!'”

    Obviously, you believe that doing the above in wrong, because it’s wrong to put ourselves into such a situation altogether. Yet it is part of the same brochure that was supposed to be handed out at the asifa.

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