First I would like to acknowledge that being a shadchan is hard work. Those who are involved in shadchanus lishma are deserving of our praise and are worthy of tremendous reward. It is truly avodas hakodesh and tzarchei tzibbur. Unfortunately, I have neither the time, temperament, nor ability to engage in it.
Someone with whom I work has been doing some shadchanus in his spare time. He has even had several successes. He is doing it purely lishma, and I envy the schar in store for him. His wife sometimes gets involved, especially to talk to the girls, if necessary. He sometimes will take a few minutes to share with me some of the stories. He will also sometimes discuss an issue or problem with me in order to get an outside thought or opinion, especially since he is still a bit of a novice, and also relatively new to the more right-wing “velt”. Today, he offered a story, and I in turn offered some constructive criticism where I thought he was wrong. He was very passionate for his side, and I wanted to share it with others, and also get your thoughts.
He told me cities, not names. I will not share cities in case of any sensitivity here on the web. FYI neither city is in the NY/NJ metro area
Here is the background. Boy from a city in the Pacific Time Zone; Girl from city in the Eastern Time Zone (i.e. long distance). Boy’s mother very involved in checking references, etc. For whatever logistical reasons, neither party was able to travel to meet the other in person; however there have been phone calls and “skype” meetings over a period of two to three months. Meeting was finally arranged – the boy was to travel to the girl’s city. The day before he was to travel, the boy’s mother calls the shadchan’s wife, says the shidduch is off, will not state a reason, and please let the girl know.
There are three issues that I would like to share, and get your thoughts on.
Issue number 1, which I shared with my shadchan friend, is that I believe that this phone call/skype thing should NOT be done long term. There should be one, two, or MAXIMUM three phone calls/skype meetings prior to meeting in person. If the neither person is unable to travel in the short term, the shidduch should be postponed. Both sides should pursue other options, and if both are still available when someone can make the trip, the shidduch can be pursued at that time. He agrees with me in theory, but feels that there may be instances in practice where it is not practical. I said that the problem (to be shared in issue #2) would not have happened if issue #1 was taken care of.
Issue number 2, in which my shadchan friend and I fully agree, is the reason he shared this story. He feels it is totally inappropriate to cancel last minute. It is not fair to the girl to get her hopes up and get her excited about the pending trip to end it at the last minute. It is disrespectful to all the work she likely put in making sure he had places to stay, eat, etc. during his trip. We don’t know what the issue is that is ending the shidduch, but to cancel last minute? The day before the trip? And if they have been dating two to three months, what business is there continuing with “checking her out”, especially when a trip was already arranged, with much effort on both sides?
Issue number 3 is my friend’s reaction to issue number 2. He feels that the boy is wrong, and he will not be the messenger for this. He called up the boy, tried to convince him to go through with the trip, and when that failed, told the boy that he needs to call the girl himself to let her know. I feel that this is completely wrong. The job of a shadchan is to be the go-between and pass messages. If a boy is calling off the shidduch because the girl is ugly, or fat, the shadchan does the dirty work. If a girl is ending it for a reason the shadchan feels is inappropriate, or even wrong, the shadchan tries to convince her it is wrong, but if he fails, it is the shadchan’s job to break it off. Perhaps, after the couple has been out several times, then it becomes appropriate for the couple to speak directly about things like this, but for sure not so early in the process. My shadchan friend is passionate about how wrong this boy is for cancelling last minute, and I agree with him (though maybe not as passionately). But my friend says if the boy insists on making this wrong decision, then he needs to “be a man” and tell her himself. I said that is not the system. The system is to save the couple from having to do this stuff themselves. We don’t want someone continuing to date the wrong person because he/she is afraid to end it personally. This is no different than if the boy is calling it off for a silly reason, like plastic tablecloth covers. The shadchan’s job is to convince the boy he is wrong, and if that fails, then his next job is to call the other party to pass the message that it is over. And for sure, if the shadchan is so upset by this development, he needs to call his rabbi (he does have a rabbi with whom he sometimes also gets guidance and shadchanus) and run it by him before becoming so angry at this boy and, in effect, abdicating his job as shadchan and making the boy call the girl directly to break it to her.
In the end, this all happened before he discussed with me. He did make the boy call the girl, which did happen, and the shidduch is off. After talking with me, he did seem like he was turning and starting to agree with me on issue #3, but since he was initially so passionate, I wanted to see what others think. Also, though we both agreed on issue #2, as I type this out, and the more I think about it, I wonder: if the boy knows it isn’t going to happen anyway, why waste everyone’s time with the trip? Too bad that this occurred last minute, but it happened, so is it really the right thing to go?
Anyway, I know I am on here quite rarely, and I post even less, but I wanted to share with all of you, and hopefully get some of your thoughts.
Thanks.
YWN Coffee Room » Shidduchim
My friend, the shadchan, and his issue(s)
(10 posts)-
Posted 5 months ago #
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Too Long for me to read. Maybe you can make the paragraph a bit shorter.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Sorry. I figured more details would shed light on things and make it easier to provide productive and educated responses. Here it is in a nutshell:
Issue 1: Communication between the boy and girl in a long-distance shidduch where logistically, neither person is able to travel for several weeks.
Issue 2: A long-distance relationship where one person is scheduled to travel and calls off the shidduch at the last minute.
Issue 3: When messages should be passed through the shadchan and when they should go directly from boy to girl (or vice-versa).If you would like to speak generally regarding these issues, then this post is sufficient. If you would like to speak to the specifics of the situation I described above, please read the post above to get more details.
Also, I am sorry for the appearance of the original post. When I typed it, it was with paragraphs. Somehow it came into the coffee room as one long thing.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Skype for one two then meet is a good idea, long term like they did no good.
Boy to cancel after agreed to date is wrong so held R Aron Kotler zt"l once you agree to meet you can't retract, better to date and say not for you.
Regarding boy calling himself, I've had this issue and was told by a chashuva Rav whom is accepted in all circles that once you make dates on ur own u have to tell the girl urseld If you don't want to continue.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Interesting, I agree with you that in Yeshivish circles the shadchan should have made the call but Considering the reason the shidduch was called off wasn't given I don't blame the shadchan for getting upset and making the guy call himself. In more modern circles after only skyping with someone a few times you don't even owe them a reason for ending the relationship. It does seem like the guy cancelled the trip for a valid reason figuring he didn't want to waste anybody's time. A decent guy with a proper reason should be able to make the phone call to the girl and explain why he thinks it won't work out. Yes people feelings get hurt in shidduchim there's no way around that but if his reason is valid than she should be able to understand and move on.
Posted 5 months ago # -
1) Normally, I think it should be kept short. I would stress than a strong effort should be made to meet sooner, rather than postponing it.
2) You're probably right, but you can't be sure because you don't know why it was called off. I don't think checking stops until they're engaged.
3) You're absolutely right (in normal yeshivishe circles).Posted 5 months ago # -
Nope, I agree with him. If someone has been dating a guy/girl for a while (7 or 8 dates) and has already "gotten rid" of the shadchan then it is the one who is deciding to break it off responsibility to do the speaking to the other party. I think it is a cop-out for them to ask the shadchan to do it.
In this situation they had been skyping for 2 or 3 months. That is considered a long term relationship already, whether they have met or not. Imho, he should stop being a coward and do the calling himself.
Could be I'm wrong about this though.Posted 5 months ago # -
Whole LOTS of issues here. but ill be brief. Number. One Skype is a bad idea. Maybe its ok for a first meeting,if you are desperate, but West coast guy and East coast girl have no business agreeing to a shidduch if neither of them can stop what they are doing to pursue it properly.(and i will go so far as to say follow it thru to the end) meaning about one month committment of your time. If you are both in graduate school (which is the only reason ,short of sitting shiva CV i can imagine preventing the trip. THEN DO NOT GO OUT!!! PERIOD> No matter how desperate the matzav is today, if you cannot make the full committment of going out and following up with dates, and parent meetings, then do NOT begin the parsha. Same goes for NY to Balto. or anywhere else for that matter. But say they were "dumb" enough to do that. the next issue is why did he call it off. THe shadchan deserves that answer. he does not have to agree, but he deserves that answer under most circumstances. and if in fact these skype meetings and phone calls were moving along in the direction of building some kind of relationship, then shadchan friend is correct, it is the boy's responsibiltiy to "man up" and tell her whatever he thinks he should tell her to get off the hook with her. (of course , if this is something stupid, like his mother calling it off because she heard she once ditched class in 9th grade, then i feel sorry for him, to have to deal with a mother like that... but they do exist. Thats my two cents for whatever its worth. My biggest question here is why couldnt anyone get on a plane?
Posted 5 months ago # -
I agree with "RC" and really have nothing much to add except to remember that dating is NOT a game and needs to be taken seriously. Both parties have to respect the other and take their feelings into consideration. How would he and his mother feel if they made all the arrangements and bought the tickets and 2 hours before the flight SHE called it off? Once you set up a date you go through it like a mench and see where it takes you. If you can't be mentchelech about that, then the least you can do is man up and make the phone call to break it off yourself.
Posted 5 months ago # -
PEOPLE!!! I CAN'T SAY THIS ENOUGH!!! PARAGRAPH BREAKS MATTER!!!
Posted 5 months ago #
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