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1. yitayningwut
   I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

   I was at the Shabbos table and I mentioned that when I was in eighth grade I was in yeshiva from 9 in the morning until 9 at night, learning first seder, second seder and night seder. The immediate reaction I got was “that’s terrible!” and “it’s not possible for someone to function properly in such a situation!”

   I said that I agreed, but only because this is the society we live in. Since a kid looks around and sees everyone else having it easy, he will develop whatever psychological issues victims of undue pressure develop. But I said that in principle I don’t think there is any indication that there is something unhealthy about a 12-13 year old kid learning all day. I added support to my argument by saying that back in the old country the kids all used to go to work at 11 years old (and we aren’t talking 9-5) and they managed just fine.

   They said that there’s no way those kids were happy. And they said there’s no way I can even believe what I’m saying and I must just be playing devil’s advocate. It’s absolutely impossible for someone to have such a “pressured” life and truly be happy.

   I thought that was stupidity.

   They started telling me about this person who has money issues and can’t make his tuition payments although the school is prepared to take his kid out of school, and another who needs to moonlight as a janitor in order to make ends meet.

   I listened and then said, “ok… so what’s your point?”

   “You really think they are happy? You’re crazy!”

   “I’m not saying I know they’re happy, I’m just saying it isn’t inconceivable and certainly not impossible. Why does difficult have to mean unhappy?”

   The response I got was a wave of the hand and a few not very well concealed looks of irritation. They seemed angry at me. Why? Why is it that some discussions make people angry when you don’t agree with them? Is it a lack of self esteem or something? Do they think that you are somehow incriminating them with your opinion? Is it a lack of confidence in their own opinion? I really hate when this happens because it’s like a wall goes up. There was a certain trust I had that we can talk openly about things and now it’s broken. Just stupid. Well, it’s their loss :-)

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. oot for life
   Member

   did you ask them to define happy? because it doesnt sound like they're happy

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. yitayningwut
   I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

   I had that thought too. But they didn't want to keep talking about it and were getting upset, so I let the subject change.

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. Derech HaMelech
   Informative Contributor to the CR

   In my albeit limited experience, I've found that a lot of people equate physical comfort with happiness. The concept of a "fulfilling life" seems to be a strange, alien thing. Today, only the (ayin)ashir can supposedly be the (alef)ashir.

   (I've had many a conversation (read: argument) with an important figure in my life, who believes that its imperative that I own more than three or four pairs of pants and shirts and two suits. This person gets angry that I refuse to buy more clothing on the grounds that I simply have enough to meet my needs.)

   B"H I find that in E"Y in my general community, I think that in most homes, this is no the case. The high school kids actually do put in a good 10-12 hours daily on Sundays too no less and because everyone else does it, no one seems to feel they're missing out on anything.

   No one looks down on the youngerman who tries to sell cakes to make a couple extra shekel. In fact, one of the happiest people I ever met actually did this when I was in yeshivah in order to put together enough money for Shabbos.

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. PrincessEagle
   Flying High

   Perhaps people get angry when you don't agree with them because they take it like a criticism. An opinion is part of you and unless you work or developed on it, it may feel like rejection of part of yourself from the other person. Most people don't like to be criticised, perhaps because we like to think of ourselves as perfect people, at least to the outside world?!
   Just a thought..
   Your thoughts on self esteem etc sounds true enough too... talk of if they're happy... ;-/
   Hope you're feeling better after ranting here. It is frustrating not to be heard out.

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. HaLeiVi
   Plays the aeolian harp by air

   When people are emotionaly involved in their opinion they can not agree to the opposite view. When you force them to do so they'll only get irritated. That is one reason that I ignore many threads here.

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. RSRH
   Member

   I have a VERY pressured life. It makes me exhausted, occasionally frustrated, often curt and impatient, sometimes very unpleasant to be around. it also makes me incredibly productive, fulfilled, and content. I most certainly am happy under this kind of pressure.

   BUT that doesn't mean everyone is. Some people thrive on pressure and rise to the challenge. Others are buried under its weight; they could achieve the same heights under a more relaxed regimen.

   SO, while it may not be unhealthy for you to learn 10-12 hours a day as a 12-13 year old (or 17-20 year old, for that matter), it may be very destructive for others. Chinuch l'naar al pi darcho. You are right, in thinking that some of this "softness" may be attributable to general social norms and standards where kids are under less pressure and so are unable to handle the pressure as well. But, the reality is that social norms are here, they do impact on how kids handle life, and we need to work with these realities rather than try to ignore them and expect kids to fall in line.

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. Imaofthree
   Member

   Sounds like they are jealous of you. Forget about it.

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. frumnotyeshivish
   as distinct from topknot yeshivish

   If a person is happy, then they must have accomplished something (excluding mind-altering substances). The more one accomplishes, the happier (in theory) one gets. Problems arise when one's personal recognition of accomplishment are skewed. This can apply to shabbos guests and to children equally.

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. Working on it
    Member

    yitayningwut -I think the problem is that there is WAAAYYY too much emphasis these days about everyone being happy. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should be happy. I just think that realistically, we can't all be happy all of the time. The issue is that kids are never going to be happy when they are told to do something. It doesn't matter if the school day was only 3 hours, they would be unhappy about that too. The constant desire to do things just to make kids happy is actually causing more harm than good. They never appreciate things anymore. I bet when you had a day off from school it was like going on vacation - what to do with all this free time? Do today's kids appreciate a day off? No. They want to know why they didn't get two days off, because that would really make them "happy".
    I think we would all be better off if we thought about what the kids need instead of what would make them happy

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    Thanks everyone for your input.

    Derech HaMelech - That argument you mentioned about the suit is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I'm glad you agree. And I know what you mean about Israel.

    PrincessEagle - Yup, it feels great to be able to rant here. Thanks for listening :) And what you are saying about criticism makes sense.

    HaLeiVi - I kind of noticed... It still upsets me whenever it happens though.

    RSRH - Good for you that you are able to be happy amid all of the pressure. And I completely agree with you; that's the point I was trying to bring across. They just couldn't fathom the possibility.

    Imaofthree - Ok, thanks.

    frumnotyeshivish - I'm not sure I get what you are saying. Can you explain?

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Yitay, years ago, in Yeshiva, I would get agitated about the fact that many discussions would end with, "Oh, fine, have it your way." It bothered me why we couldn't just argue out the merits to each side. After pondering it for some time I came to one conclusion: keep in mind who you are talking to.

    By now, to most people, who actually can't handle a normal argument I just nod when they say whatever ridicules statement, since I know that they will only get angry at my disagreement, and I will be stuck there going around the same point over and over. But with people who know how to get convinced (a great art) I still can discuss things.

    In short, don't enter an argument if you can't leave it.

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    Working on it -

    Interesting point. I also think that if we emphasized אזהו עשיר השמח בחלקו and actually taught by example, the younger generation would grow up a lot happier.

    HaLeiVi -

    In short, don't enter an argument if you can't leave it.

    Sounds like sound advice!

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. goldenkint
    Member

    generally,if people get so upset that you have a different idea than them and can;t accept it it is becuz they are jealous, or feel inadequate so they have to put you down. i know many people who work very hard and accomplish a lot more than me, and i admire them.i am not jealous so their accomplishments don;t bother me. but when a person has low self esteem,or feels guilty about their own choices,then they have to knock the next one down. dont sweat it.you are right.

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    goldenkint -

    Makes sense; I did think of that, but you said it well. Thank you.

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. OneOfMany
    The Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple ^_^

    I have to say, I don't think it's necessarily because they felt "inadequate" or "jealous". Like I said on the "What's the Idea with College?" thread - some people just don't get that other people are hardwired differently than they are, and therefore need different things to lead fulfilling lives. And then they get all passionate and stubborn about it, because they REALLY think that the other side is delusional - because they honestly can't conceive of living such a way.

    (I've had a lot of experience dealing with such people...I just keep telling myself that they are really well-meaning...)

    Of course, it's highly possible that they were just a bunch of mean old goats. I'm just saying.

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    OneOfMany -

    Wow, I hear. But why do you think they can't conceive that others are different than they are?

    Posted 1 year ago #

18. OneOfMany
    The Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple ^_^

    My own, very non-authoritative opinion: it's our generation's own brand of sinas chinam. There's absolutely no reason to care or bother about others' life choices, but we all keep on doing it anyway.

    Posted 1 year ago #

19. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    Haha

    Posted 1 year ago #

20. OneOfMany
    The Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple ^_^

    That's the spirit! :D

    Posted 1 year ago #

21. Nechomah
    Member

    I find it interesting that people insist on lower educational standards as a measure of happiness. I'm not expressing this well, but I think that there are two issues at hand. One is education and one is "happiness" or whatever that means to people. I think that in general we are in this world to "work" - omol. For men that would mean learning Torah/working, and for women that would be taking care of the children/house/working, etc. In order to succeed in learning/working, a person has to work hard to achieve a certain level. In many countries other than America, school hours are much longer and more rigorous. In EY, my 8yo son is in cheder from 8:30 until 5, 10yo until 5:30 and many 13-14yo boys are until 6:30 and it just gets longer after that. As far as secular education, I just read the in South Korea, school is from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. except on Sunday.

    I do understand that people need down time, recreational activities, etc, to be more productive and recharge batteries, but is that the equivalent of "happiness"?

    Posted 1 year ago #

22. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    The secret to happiness: Whenever a Bochur feels like it is too long, just take another coffee. If you are in 9th grade and they don't let, then it becomes an adventure so it is even more fun and a greater boost to continue learning Geshmak.

    Posted 1 year ago #

23. frumnotyeshivish
    as distinct from topknot yeshivish

    Inherently learning is the most productive thing in the world (to me, to you, and most importantly to Chazal when explaining God's will). Ergo, healthy people, when learning, should feel enormous accomplishment, satisfaction, and happiness. Sadly, the recent generation (myself included) is not that healthy. Despite actual accomplishment we don't feel it enough. Additionally, the values of Chazal May not be ingrained enough in us. Your Shabbos Guests seemed to exemplify this latter idea.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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