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1. far vos
   Member

   For AZ:

   First let me say that I commend your plan to help solve the shidduch crisis. A lot of people talk about doing something, but very few are actually attempting anything. Kol Hakavod!

   That being said, I don't think your idea will help. Assuming that your incentives did lead to more shidduchim for "older" singles (which is not a certainty), all that this will accomplish is less shidduchim for "younger" singles. This will lead to an even bigger increase in older singles in the future. This is essentially what the government did when they implemented "cash for clunkers" and temporary tax credits for buying houses. They pushed up the demand for new cars (and houses) by a few months. They did not create any more demand. The same amount of cars and houses were sold. All that happened was that when the programs expired, demand fell off a cliff. I'm afraid this is what your plan does. It doesn't create any more shidduchim. It just changes who will be getting those shidduchim, thereby pushing the problem down the road. The "younger" singles you are taking shidduchim away from, will quickly become the "older" singles you are attempting to help in 2 or 3 years.

   Posted 6 months ago #

2. artchill
   Member

   NASI and AZ are what the mefarshim on Pirkei Avos warn that a machlokes leshem shomayim will never end. This is because the person feels they are mamash fighting for the sake of Hashem and will never concede defeat.

   Even after NASI spokesman admitted that the original statistics were fabricated in order to shock people into action; even after they admitted that they defaulted and didn't pay non-NASI afiliated shadchanim; even after they turned the current bnos yisroel into a commodity to be auctioned off by giving a price tag per age; even after NASI stated clearly if the girls don't get in the program they will be blacklisted by shadchanim; ARE THERE STILL 50 GIRLS STUPID ENOUGH TO TRUST THESE PEOPLE??

   Draw your own conclusions about NASI, but stay away from investing.

   Posted 6 months ago #

3. Dr. Pepper
   Ph.D.

   artchill-

   NASI and AZ

   AZ is NASI

   Posted 6 months ago #

4. artchill
   Member

   far vos:

   AZ already answered your question:

   Based on the feedback NASI has reduced the rates:
   22/23-$4,000 (previously 5/6k)
   24/25- $5,000 (previously 7/8k)
   26/27- $7,000 (previously 9/10k)
   28/29- $8,000 (previously 11/12k)
   30/31- $9,000 (previously 13/14k)
   32 AND OLDER-$10,000

   COMING SOON......BUY ONE GET ONE FREE!!

   Sick and getting sicker!!

   Posted 6 months ago #

5. bpt
   never caustic

   " BUY ONE GET ONE FREE!! "

   Hey, that might be something. That way, I could have one to work, and another to tend to the house.

   Yeah, very sad. Well intentioned, but for our young women to be spoken of like this, its deplorable.

   Posted 6 months ago #

6. charlie brown
   Member

   COMING SOON......BUY ONE GET ONE FREE!!

   Its not coming soon, its already here in the same post from AZ that you cut and pasted from. But its not exactly buy one get one free, instead its buy 2 get one on credit.

   Any family with more than two young women to enroll in the program needs to only put in the dollar amount to cover two of them and they can enroll all the sisters. Imy”h when one gets married they would then be expected to put in the dollar amount to cover the third sister.

   Posted 6 months ago #

7. SG345
   Member

   Daas Zekainim Mibaalei Tosfos says on the inyan of Lot's daughters - they said there is no one to marry us because they held they were meyuchasin.

   I question whether this is not the same with some of the shidduch crisis. While it is true that there is definitely an issue with a disproportionate amount of boys to girls. However, what needs to be addressed is that many older singles tend to have very picky parents or are picky themselves and that no one is good enough. Not everyone is like this. But many. This has to be a problem that has to be addressed in the course of solving the problem.

   Posted 6 months ago #

8. DaasYochid
   Member

   far vos, ... I don't think your idea will help. Assuming that your incentives did lead to more shidduchim for "older" singles (which is not a certainty), all that this will accomplish is less shidduchim for "younger" singles. This will lead to an even bigger increase in older singles in the future.

   Yes, but there will be a boy for all of them!

   artchill,

   Sick and getting sicker!!

   First, the complaint was that the dollar amounts were too high. Now the complaint is that it was lowered, which is worse??!! I don't get it!

   I guess if someone wants to be cynical and negative, logic won't stand in the way.

   bpt,

   but for our young women to be spoken of like this, its deplorable.

   Nobody from NASI spoke negatively about our young women, unless I missed such a post. If so, please point it out to me.

   Posted 6 months ago #

9. popa_bar_abba
   Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a woman; not Mod 80. Sometimes a bit over the top.

   I like having NASI around. It is good to have someone to blame for our troubles.

   It is like when you stub your toe, and there is nobody to yell at. The best thing that can happen is someone happens to walk by and say something stupid, so you can be mad at them.

   Posted 6 months ago #

10. essy8
    Member

    lol bpt! "one to work and one to clean"
    may i add that there'll double the "income" as well -- two father-in_laws to support!
    they can even use the thought of less support to sell the idea to the prospective father-in-laws...
    "is the fact that you can't afford full support holding your daughter back? sign up for the new game changing '2-for-1' shidduch initiative and cut your support costs in half!!!"

    Posted 6 months ago #

11. far vos
    Member

    DaasYochid: "Yes, but there will be a boy for all of them!"

    Not necessarily. Under the NASI plan, older girls will be taking the place of younger girls. This will cause the younger girls to go longer before getting married...thereby causing there to be more older singles in the future. Everyone knows there are unintended consequences whenever implementing ideas attempting to manipulate an outcome. See above on what I said about "cash for clunkers". This plan is not solving anything. If anything, it will be causing more older singles in the future than there otherwise would have been.

    Posted 6 months ago #

12. oomis1105
    Member

    No offense intended at all, but are AZ and Daas Yochid the same person?

    Posted 6 months ago #

13. DaasYochid
    Member

    far vos,

    You don't seem to get the age gap equation. To simplify, let's assume there are equal numbers of 22-23 year old boys as there are 22-23 year old girls.

    If the 22-23 year old boys only married the 22-23 year old girls, there would be no gender discrepancy; there would be an equal number of older girls as boys. Say, for example, that 98% of all boys get married under the current system but only 92% of the girls do (made up numbers just for illustrative purposes). Under the revamped system, the rate would be 98% for the girls as well. The increased numbers of older girls you describe would be true for 21 year old girls, but once they hit the same age as the boys are when they get married (22-23) they would no longer be older singles, because they would get married.

    Oomis, No. In fact, there are aspects of the program which I disagree with.

    Posted 6 months ago #

14. Joseph / bezalel
    Blocked

    The "younger" singles you are taking shidduchim away from, will quickly become the "older" singles you are attempting to help in 2 or 3 years.

    And another $500 for NASI.

    Posted 6 months ago #

15. BTGuy
    Member

    Hi arthill. I am with ya' brutha'!!! Say No to NASI!!

    Posted 6 months ago #

16. miritchka
    Member

    i am not for the NASI project. I used to be, until the game changer plan.

    DaasYachid: you're right that people complain about the dollar amounts before adn after it was lowered. But your missing the point of the complaints. Yes its a fortune, but the majority of the complaints are because of the price, not because of the amount. And you're right, no one is talking negative about the girls, but putting a price on their head is negative.

    I believe AZ and NASI deserve our thanx for taking action, but i dont thing its the right way.

    Posted 6 months ago #

17. far vos
    Member

    DaasYochid: Unfortunately the age gap is not that simple. Let's say for example that there are equal amount of boys and girls at every age. Let's also assume that every year there is a 10% increase in the population (to keep things simple). Now take 3 different ages. For example, there will be 10 boys and 10 girls who are 22. There will be 11 boys and 11 girls who are 21. And there will be 12 boys and 12 girls who are 20. This means that there are 33 boys and girls between the ages of 20-22. However, because the boys don't start dating until later, there are in reality less boys then girls who are going out. This means that every year there will be roughly 10% (or whatever is the actual increase in population) of girls who don't have a guy to go out with. What I just described is the age gap theory. The NASI plan attempts to solve this by encouraging boys to date girls closer in age to their own. However, NASI doesn't take into account the UNINTENDED consequences this will cause. If, in the current state, there are "10%" of girls who don't have an equal guy to date...then with the manipulation of the numbers that will increase to lets say 20%. There won't be any more girls getting married. They will just be DIFFERENT girls getting married. These different girls (i.e. older) will be taking the place of the younger ones. Unfortunately, what will end up happening is that this plan will only lead to MORE older singles in the future. Not less.

    Posted 6 months ago #

18. DaasYochid
    Member

    miritchka, Yes its a fortune, but the majority of the complaints are because of the price, not because of the amount.

    Amount of what?
    My point was to question why artchill said it's worse now that the price (amount?) was lowered.

    putting a price on their head is negative.

    There's no "price on their heads". There's compensation for helping them. It's exactly the opposite of how some people are mistakenly conceiving it!

    Imagine a king whose precious only daughter was ill. He sends messengers throughout the land announcing that whoever can find a cure will be paid five thousand gold rubles. Has he degraded her? No! Just the opposite! He's showing just how valuable she is by offering such a high sum.

    Posted 6 months ago #

19. DaasYochid
    Member

    far vos,
    It's about 3% a year, the 10% number out there is cumulative, accounting for the 3 or 4 year typical age gap between husband and wife. If it were 10% a year, we'd really be in "g'hokta tzuris".

    There won't be any more girls getting married. They will just be DIFFERENT girls getting married. These different girls (i.e. older) will be taking the place of the younger ones.

    True, but you're still missing the point. The current system has the older boys "borrowing" from the younger girls. It's like a Ponzi scheme*; the same number of girls get married either way, but with the current system, some girls nebach get left out at the expense of the younger, ever increasing population. With the proposed system, all of the girls get married, albeit a few years later. Those few tears are, in effect, being distributed to the girls who wouldn't otherwise get married.

    *No, I don't mean it's a fraud; it's not. I mean to compare the math; in theory, a Ponzi sheme could go on forever, with everyone getting their money, as long as the supply of investors keeps growing at a certain pace (which it doesn't, the reason why Ponzi schemes eventually fall apart).

    Posted 6 months ago #

20. miritchka
    Member

    DaasYachid: With all due respect, if a shadchan told me that in order for them to put a girl on their list i would have to pay, and not only to pay but the price goes up as the age goes up, that is called putting a price on the girls.

    I like the moshol you used. And like the king, most parents would pay any price to find their 'cure'. Difference is that whereas the king is offering the reward, here its the doctors demanding the reward. And not just demanding the reward but saying you have to pay 'interest' as the years go by.

    If a parent says "I'll pay you $5000 to find my daughters shidduch", thats great! But for a shadchan to say,"I'm not going to look at your daughter unless you agree to $5,000"

    I hope i was clear this time :)

    Posted 6 months ago #

21. far vos
    Member

    DaasYochid: As I mentioned, I was using "10%" as an example to keep things simple.

    "With the proposed system, all of the girls get married, albeit a few years later. "

    First off, only Has-em has the ability to say "all of the girls get married".
    Second-- I think mathematically it just is not true. All you are doing is creating MORE older girls in the future. Instead of the 3 or 4% that you say get left behind....that will become 8 or 10% (due to the incentives skewing who gets married). You will have an even BIGGER problem in a few years. You still haven't solved the "supply" side of the equation. Those 8 or 10% of girls are still going to be up against the "younger population" for dates.

    Posted 6 months ago #

22. DaasYochid
    Member

    miritchka,

    It's not the shadchanim demanding; it's a third party (NASI) encouraging and facilitating the parents to offer the $5,000. The whole thing is optional, no one has to sign up, and shadchanim are free (and undoubtedly mant will contiue) to redt shidduchim for the regular fee.

    Posted 6 months ago #

23. DaasYochid
    Member

    Those 8 or 10% of girls are still going to be up against the "younger population" for dates.

    Not nearly as much if NASI is successful. (I didn't literally mean all will actually get married, I was referring to the goal.)

    Posted 6 months ago #

24. far vos
    Member

    DaasYochid:
    NASI might achieve the goal of getting more CURRENT older singles to get married. However, as I keep saying, this will adversely affect the FUTURE amount of older singles. The NASI initiative doesn't take into account the unintended consequences. They are changing one "variable" while assuming (incorrectly) that everything else stays "constant". In other words, even if everything goes according to NASI's plan--there will be more older singles than there currently are. I just don't think that, mathematically, it would makes sense to implement this.

    Posted 6 months ago #

25. DaasYochid
    Member

    far vos,NASI might achieve the goal of getting more CURRENT older singles to get married. However, as I keep saying, this will adversely affect the FUTURE amount of older singles.

    I'll try one more time.

    If NASI is successful, the definition of "older singles" will change, as will the percentage of girls overall who have a corresponding boy.

    In a "perfect" scenario (mathematically), every girl will have a potential husband.

    Say there are 1000 girls born in a given year, and 1000 boys, and nobody marries someone born in a different year. There are 1000 potential shidduchim, with nobody left out. If the next year there are 1030 of each, and they still only marry someone from that year, we again have accounted for everyone, and so on and so forth.

    If the age of all of these Yidden is 23, and you still consider a 21 or 22 year old girl as "older", then, indeed, you could claim that there are more older singles than ever, despite the fact that the shidduch crises has been solved!

    Posted 6 months ago #

26. far vos
    Member

    DaasYochid: I don't think he definition of "older singles" will be changing. At least according to NASI, it seems pretty clear that 22+ is "older". That is their definition.

    "In a "perfect" scenario (mathematically), every girl will have a potential husband."

    Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfectly mathematical world. If we are going to solve problems, let's try and do it while dealing with reality. NASI's idea will work only if EVERY person marries someone born in the exact same year. That is definitely not going to happen, nor should it. The fact is that, as things currently stand (meaning without economic incentives), there is a percentage of girls who get left out. What is that percentage? There is no firm answer, but let's assume it is the 3 or 4% that you say. Now, once there are incentives to redt shidduchim to older (in place of younger) girls, the amount of "younger" girls will quickly turn into "older". Meaning all NASI is doing is replacing who gets married now, without taking into consideration the future older girls (however you want to define "older"). I'm not arguing with the concept of the age gap. I am just pointing out that there are unintended consequences to the plan set forth by NASI.

    Posted 6 months ago #

27. passfan
    Member

    far vos: If NASI is successful in its goals, it'll cause the average age of girls getting married to be older than the current average age of girls getting married. But it won't cause some of the current younger girls to not have a husband; it'll just cause them to get married at an older age than they would have under the system as it stands currently.

    You wrote: "NASI's idea will work only if EVERY person marries someone born in the exact same year."

    Actually, all that is needed is for the AVERAGE age gap to be about zero. So one chosson could be 5 years older than his kalla, while another kalla could be 5 years older than her chosson. That would eliminate their being too many girls and too few guys for them to marry. BUT even if that goal is not entirely achieved, but the average age gap is just REDUCED from what it is currently, then it will still cause a lower percentage of girls that won't have who to marry than the current system causes. Which is an improvement over the current system, even if it doesn't resolve the problem 100%, it might fix the problem -say- 85%.

    Posted 6 months ago #

28. far vos
    Member

    passfan:

    "But it won't cause some of the current younger girls to not have a husband; it'll just cause them to get married at an older age than they would have under the system as it stands currently."

    That is not necessarily true. This is what I was referring to above when I said that predictions like these are assuming that everything else will remain "constant" despite the changing of a "variable". You are assuming that the same girls will get married just at a later age. But says who? Guys that they were being redt to (and subsequently marrying), will now be redt to older girls and marry them instead. In a best case scenario, these same girls will get married but at a later age and to different guys. In a worst case scenario, many of these girls will be looking for a shidduch for a lot longer period with some maybe being left out. But either way, there will be a much larger shidduch crisis of "older" girls, down the road, due to the attempted manipulating of the market.

    "Actually, all that is needed is for the AVERAGE age gap to be about zero. So one chosson could be 5 years older than his kalla, while another kalla could be 5 years older than her chosson."

    Yes, but this holds true with or without the NASI project. The point I am raising is that the project might end up having the opposite effect of closing the age gap.

    "it might fix the problem -say- 85%"

    How do you get that percentage?

    Please don't get me wrong. I applaud NASI for attempting to help solve the problem. I just feel that that there are always unintended consequences, and that this might not be the best way to go about things.

    Posted 6 months ago #

29. DaasYochid
    Member

    Passfan,

    Well said, I'll just add one point. Statistically, there are 105 males born for every 100 females. If this holds true in the frum world as well, the gap does not have to be closed to zero, theres some leeway. In fact, closing it to zero would actually cause an imbalance the other way, in favor of the girls.

    Posted 6 months ago #

30. AZ
    Member

    Far Vos:

    "At least according to NASI, it seems pretty clear that 22+ is "older". That is their definition"

    Incorrect (you'll probably say... " "ay" they started the program for girls 22+...." that is simply a statement of total lack of undestanding of the situation, the project in general, and this program in particular.

    DY feel free to explain.

    "NASI's idea will work only if EVERY person marries someone born in the exact same year."

    Incorrect

    DY feel free to explain

    humble suggestion: prior to offering a "authorotative" opinion on the issue why not first spend some time understanding the issue. Or you could contact NASI and they'd be glad to exlain it to you patiently.

    Posted 6 months ago #

31. DaasYochid
    Member

    AZ,
    Far Vos:

    "At least according to NASI, it seems pretty clear that 22+ is "older". That is their definition"

    Incorrect (you'll probably say... " "ay" they started the program for girls 22+...." that is simply a statement of total lack of undestanding of the situation, the project in general, and this program in particular.

    DY feel free to explain.

    You could do a more accurate job than I; you contemplated and consulted on this and came up with the ideas, I'm just figuring it out based on the program. But I'll try, and you'll please correct me when necessary.

    Here goes: 22 is not the age at which a girl is "older" in terms of marriageability, they're trying to get them married before they become "older"; an ounce of prevention...

    "NASI's idea will work only if EVERY person marries someone born in the exact same year."

    Incorrect

    DY feel free to explain

    It will work to whatever extent the age gap is closed. My example was an extreme (halevai it should work that well) to illustrate the point.

    far vos,

    "Actually, all that is needed is for the AVERAGE age gap to be about zero. So one chosson could be 5 years older than his kalla, while another kalla could be 5 years older than her chosson."

    Yes, but this holds true with or without the NASI project.

    The NASI project is designed to bring the overall average age gap closer to zero. This is not happening without NASI, currently.

    "it might fix the problem -say- 85%" (passfan)

    How do you get that percentage?

    It was obviously an example and illustration, not a real number (although it's a real possibility, if the age gap can be closed). You did the same thing with your example of 10% annual population increase.

    Posted 6 months ago #

32. far vos
    Member

    AZ: "humble suggestion: prior to offering a "authorotative" opinion on the issue why not first spend some time understanding the issue."

    This doesn't seem like a "humble suggestion". Why try and make things personal? I went out of my way to NEVER criticize NASI on a personal level--only questioning the solution proposed. There is no need to offer up statements like, "that is simply a statement of total lack of undestanding of the situation, the project in general, and this program in particular.". I would hope that someone whose goal is to solve a problem, would be open to feedback and questions and not resort to belittling those who question a proposed solution.

    DaasYochid and AZ: Neither of you have yet to refute (AZ hasn't even attempted) my question as to how this will cause there to be any less older girls in the future. The only answer you keep coming back to is that in a mathematically perfect world, everything evens out. But I repeat, that is not our reality! It comes down to one simple question that I would hope you would be able to answer: what makes you think that every other factor will remain "constant" in the face of manipulation?

    Posted 6 months ago #

33. apushatayid
    Member

    For any initiative to be successful, some mindsets have to change. One of those mindsets is the idea that girls are somehow corrupted and are no good (certainly no longer the best or the ideal) by exposure to college and/or the workforce. If we are encouraging prioritizing shidduchim for girls 22/23 over those 19/20, girls will have to find something to do for 4 years. How many frum female OT, PT or Speech therapists can the market bear, especially those educated at degree mills that promise degrees in 10 months or less? How many morah/teacher positions are available? Girls will start going to 4 year programs, getting 4 year degress in things like accounting and start working 9-5 jobs. Will those girls be looked at sidways as "college girls" and "modern working girls"?

    I dont know what the answer is, but if the goal is to stop marrying at 19/20 and instead do so at 22/23, those 2-3 years will have to be filled with SOMETHING.

    Are there any shadchanim who believe that even today, a working girl (this does not mean a pre school assistant or a PT in a frum firm) or a college educated girl is not somehow looked on as inferior goods? If not, please let me know, I know several wonderful girls...

    Posted 6 months ago #

34. miritchka
    Member

    DaasYachid: Its good that NASI is encouraging parents to offer money. But we're back to square one - they are putting a price on the girls heads.
    I know shadchanim are working hard now for teh older singles. By telling parents their 30 year old daughters wont be looked at for less than $10,000, its not right because even though they dont mean to, shadchanim may demand teh $10,000 even if the girl is not part of the NASI list.
    I hear what you are saying, and i dont think either of us will back down on how we feel about this. And this is why I dont think this game changer will work.

    Posted 6 months ago #

35. far vos
    Member

    DaasYochid:

    "The NASI project is designed to bring the overall average age gap closer to zero. This is not happening without NASI, currently."

    I agree it is designed to bring the age gap down. However, sometimes, doing something is worse then doing nothing. I am pointing out that there are unintended consequences. This plan doesn't allow for any other variable to change. It assumes everything else stays the same. Why?

    "It will work to whatever extent the age gap is closed. My example was an extreme (halevai it should work that well) to illustrate the point."

    Again, this doesn't allow for anything else to change.

    Posted 6 months ago #

36. passfan
    Member

    Thank you DY.

    far vos: It seems to me that you are having a hangup with the semantics. Whether an "older" girl is defined as 22, 24 or 26 is almost irrelevant. That is merely semantics. It is true, as I've said above, that the NASI initiative will cause girls to marry at a later age than currently. So, yes, as a result girls may be "looking for a shidduch for a longer period" than they are now -- if she starts looking at 18/19 or so she'll be looking longer since the NASI project will result in girls, on average, getting married later. So if she starts earlier, she'll be looking longer. That being said, she will be MORE likely to actually find a shidduch and get married than under the current system. This is because with NASI encouraging closer-in-age shidduchim, there will be more available boys. Thus more girls will be able to get married.

    Posted 6 months ago #

37. AZ
    Member

    1. Scientific definition of older girl:

    young women above age "x". Age "x" is the age at which the number of reasonably age appropriate men available are fewer than the number of available women. 22 is most certainly BELOW age "x". In fact at 22 there are far far more available young men, then young women. Simpyl becasue many young women got married at 19/20 and very very few young men get married at that age.

    What age is age "x". No need nor benefit in speculating in this forum, but one thing is certain. As a result of the efforts of the last four plus years and the changes wrought in overall dating attitudes of young men to young women their own age or even slightly older, B"H age "x" is higher than it was 4 years ago.

    That is a MAJOR accomplishment.

    2. The reason the program MUST start at 22:

    (qoute from YWN with minor adjustments)

    Q: Why does it start at 22. It’s so insensitive to make the 22 year olds to feel like they are “older” or nebach cases.

    It’s not because the 22 year olds are Nebach’s. The vast majority of shadchanim (probably well over 80% of both the full time/part time) barely spend any time on the young women 25 and up. This is because the larger pool of dating young men is 22-24. The shadchanim spend their time on compatible matches for boys in that age range. As a result of a program for 25 and up there will certainly be more attention paid to those young women, but the vast majority of attention will still be focused on the young men 22-24.

    Are the shadchanim going to redd those boys to 19 year old young women or to 22 year olds ???????

    The answer to this question will determine whether today’s 22 year old young women (and 19 year old young women) get married or whether today’s 22 year old young women (and 19 year old young women) become tomorrow’s 29/32/42 year-old, single young women.

    If this program focused only on those 25 and older, shadchanim would continue to redd the 19 and 20 year olds to the larger pool of dating boys. By starting the program at 22 there is NO doubt that the tremendous group of 22 year old young women (and 19 year old young women) will NOT become 42 and single.

    Have a nice shabbos

    Posted 6 months ago #

38. Raphael Kaufman
    Member

    DY, Just a point. While it is true that there are 105 boys born per 100 girls, boys have a higher infant mortality rate so that by age 5, there are 102 boys per 100 girls.

    Posted 6 months ago #

39. DaasYochid
    Member

    far vos,

    Neither of you have yet to refute (AZ hasn't even attempted) my question as to how this will cause there to be any less older girls in the future.

    Untrue; I have.

    The only answer you keep coming back to is that in a mathematically perfect world, everything evens out.

    Again, untrue. As I've already pointed out, there will be a higher percentage of girls who marry, according to the degree of closure of the age gap. It would work on a sliding scale. Your implication that it's an all or nothing proposition, or that anyone claimed that, is inaccurate.

    It comes down to one simple question that I would hope you would be able to answer: what makes you think that every other factor will remain "constant" in the face of manipulation?

    Simple answer: every other factor does not have to remain constant for closing the age gap to be an effective measure in closing the gender discrepancy.

    This plan doesn't allow for any other variable to change. It assumes everything else stays the same.

    A false assumption.

    miritchka, they are putting a price on the girls heads.</em.

    Nobody can stop you, or anyone else, from taking a negative perspective on this, but there's absolutely no reason to look at it this way.

    By telling parents their 30 year old daughters wont be looked at for less than $10,000, its not right because even though they dont mean to, shadchanim may demand teh $10,000 even if the girl is not part of the NASI list.

    I don't think shadcanim would have the gall to demand such a thing on their own, although I suppose if this initiative works, we'll see if I'm right. Al pi halacha, I highly doubt that they would have a right to demand it after the fact.

    Posted 6 months ago #

40. DaasYochid
    Member

    RK, where did you get that statistic from? I've seen various numbers. The ratio definitely changes with increased age (in fact, it shifts towards females) but at least according to some charts, it stays at approximately 105 until the lower 20's. I wonder how much of the shift which takes place after that is health related, and how much is violence related.

    Posted 6 months ago #

41. far vos
    Member

    To DassYochid, AZ, and Passfan:

    This is going in circles and not accomplishing anything. I have never posted before on the Coffee Room and I do not plan on posting again. I just felt that I had to point out some potential flaws in the plan. I have said my piece and the public can decide what they want. I never intended to criticize anyone, and hope that there are no hard feeling held against me. All the best.

    Far Vos

    Posted 6 months ago #

42. yeshivabochur123
    Member

    This whole idea is idiotic. Hashem decides who gets married and when. this initiative shows a tremendous lack of bitachon.

    Posted 6 months ago #

43. DaasYochid
    Member

    This whole idea is idiotic. Hashem decides who gets married and when. this initiative shows a tremendous lack of bitachon.

    So when you're ready to get married, don't bother meeting any girls; that would show a lack of bitachon.

    According to your logic, the first NASI initiative also was based on a lack of bitachon. I guess you're frummer than the 70 roshei yeshiva who supported it.

    Posted 6 months ago #

44. DaasYochid
    Member

    far vos,

    Nothing personal, I was just showing how your fears are unfounded.

    All the best to you as well.

    Posted 6 months ago #

45. oomis1105
    Member

    it's a third party (NASI) encouraging "

    You say encouraging, I say demanding. Potato potahto.

    Posted 6 months ago #

46. DaasYochid
    Member

    oomis1105 You say encouraging, I say demanding. Potato potahto.

    As far as I can tell, it's voluntary. I'm not sure how they could demand participation even if they wanted to.

    Why are we bringing Dan Quayle into this? ☺

    Posted 6 months ago #

47. FL613
    Member

    I think that one reason that NASI did this was to get everyone's attention as to the problems with older girls getting Shidduchim. Instead of everyone complaining, how about we brainstorm on how to solve the problem.

    I'll start. How about everyone taking 2 girls under their wings. Its sometimes easier to promote someone else than your own daughter. Whenever you shmooze with people, let them know about these two wonderful girls who need a shidduch. Do they perhaps know a boy who would be compatible?

    What do you think???

    Posted 6 months ago #

48. mazal77
    Member

    If anything, putting a specific price on the girls, will mean, that the girls parents, will want to have their daughters married before they turn 22, so they won't have to worry about how to pay $4,000.00.

    Posted 6 months ago #

49. mazal77
    Member

    You will have more girls who will want to marry so before they hit the 22 year old threshold.

    hurry, we have to get Chanie married before she hits 22 years old,otherwise, we have to pay 4 grand.

    Posted 6 months ago #

50. mazal77
    Member

    or the other scenario, shadchans not making shidduchs for girls under 22 so they can make money, once the girls hit the 22 years mark so they can earn more.

    Posted 6 months ago #

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