Nittel

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  • #1121669

    Josh31
    Participant

    Nothing energizes learning more than declaring it to be ossur!!!

    #1121671

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Sam2, next you’ll be complaining about Tisha B’ov and Yom Kippur. The whole point is that you don’t want to be bringing down a neshomoh when ???? ????

    #1121672

    Sam2
    Participant

    Millhouse: I don’t know about Mazals and such. I know that Yom Kippur is an Issur D’Oraisa and that Tishah B’av is because we act like we’re Aveilim. That’s entirely different from allowing a Minhag to make us be M’vatel a Chiyuv/Mitzvah D’oraisa. See Tosfos Bava Basra 2a V’havein.

    #1121673

    Me? What am I doing on Nittel Nacht? Just like me ole granny and hers before her: I’m staying home and ripping toilet paper all night!

    #1121674

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Well, not only did I learn tonight, but I even taught. Does that make me a chotei and a machati?

    The Wolf?

    #1121675

    cantgetit
    Member

    Wolf: That depends whether you hold of the Orthodox kratsmich or the Catholic kratsmich.

    #1121676

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, I don’t know why you would talk like that about Gedolei Olam who instituted this? There are those who are aware of Kedusha and the opposite, with its implications.

    If you are complaining about enforcing it upon those who don’t have the Minhag, you are correct. Is that your point?

    #1121677

    I’m staying home and ripping toilet paper all night!

    Today’s Daf Yomi {Shabbos 83} discussed various issues relating to utilizing stones to wipe oneself in bathroom. Can I fulfill my obligation to tear toilet on this nite by attending today’s Daf Yomi?

    #1121678

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: That depends whether you hold of the Orthodox kratsmich or the Catholic kratsmich.

    I don’t hold of either. I’m an apikorus of Christianity.

    The Wolf

    #1121679

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Absolutely. Choosing not to go to a Mikvah because you have a Minhag is one thing. Closing the MIkvah is something else entirely.

    #1121680

    Ender
    Participant

    This goes back to old posts. I was taught that December 25 (now Jan 6, because of the Gregorian Calender) was a pagan holiday for thousands of years. When they made up Christianity they wanted to appeal to the pagans so they made a Christian holiday the same day as the pagan holiday. The reason for Nittel is because of the pagan holiday.

    As an Aside, the pagan holiday was started from Adam Harishon who made a seuda out of Hakaras hatov to Hashem. As the days got shorter Adam thought that Hashem was destroying the world, but a few days after the winter solstice he saw that the days were getting longer, and the change must be part of the natural cycles that Hashem created. Therefore he made a seuda which was then repeated annually. However eventually as a”z became rampant, this hakaras hatov was warped into a holiday to the “sun gods”.

    #1121681

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    There are a few reasons brought down for nittel nacht.

    The Korban Netanel says it’s a form of aveilus.

    The Chasam Sofer rejects the opinion of aveilus, and say if that were the case, we’d be allowed to learn hilchos aveilus. It also would last the entire night, not just the first half. Instead, he says that the Christians would go to church at midnight for services. If they were running to pray and the Jews were sleeping, it would look bad for Jews. However, if the Jews got up at midnight, it would look like they were copying the Christians. So they instituted a rule not to learn the first half, but to stay awake doing other things. At midnight, they would begin learning.

    The Sefer Kedushat Tziyon says it’s to teach us a lesson. Jesus was a student of R’ Yehoshua ben Perachya. Before he turned bad, he was an accomplished and learned talmud chacham. He’s an example of the mishna in Avos, that says Torah learning, while important, is not the primary goal – actions are (living the Torah, not just learning it.) Therefore, on this night, we suspend learning to practice the actions.

    In any case, most of these reasons don’t apply anymore. Only the last reason does, and playing cards or chess is certainly not the actions that the mishna in Avos refers to.

    The Chazon Ish criticized those who held of nittel, and made sure to learn extra that night. The Steipler learned as well, and even told others not to let him know when nittel was, so he wouldn’t be distracted from his learning.

    #1121683

    golfer
    Participant

    Very interesting, Ender.

    #1121684

    R.T.
    Participant

    Ender — What you wrote is mainly true. But my humble understanding is that the Pagan Holiday was December 21st or 22nd, the day of the Winter Solstice.

    I heard from some shiurim that the early founders of that faith decided to synchronize the date with our Chanukah (25th of Kislev) since they understood the miraculous nature of 25 (for us).

    Notice that December 25 through January 1 (inclusive) is 8 days long. Perhaps that the initial reasoning why the compiler(s) of the present civil calendar made sure December has 31 days.

    #1121685

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Jesus was a student of R’ Yehoshua ben Perachya.

    No he wasn’t. Jesus lived about 100 years after RYBP.

    Yes, the gemara records a student of RYBP who went bad — but clearly that’s not the same Jesus who is worshiped by Christians worldwide. It’s a different person altogether.

    The Wolf

    #1121687

    Naysberg
    Member

    Which histrocial time period Yushka Pundrik lived in, is not know with certainty by anyone (despite any claims otherwise.) The early Christians fabricated a large portion of their history, especially of their leaders. And during Yushke’s lifetime, he was no one especially notable. Just one of a bunch of tiny cult leaders that were pervasive at that time.

    #1121688

    phdmom
    Member

    There are many versions as to who Yushka was, and we have no definitive answer. the versions range from him being a complete fabrication, and there are several stories of a Yeshu in the gemora that may or may not be the Yeshu that the Christians called Jesus. In a historical book called Constantine’s Sword, written by a Christian, it describes the possibility of fabrication, as well as the motivations as to why that happened. According to the Christians though, it was not Jesus at all who “started” the religion, but rather, his disciples carried on his words and added liberally to them.

    #1121689

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Ramban in his Vikuach says that the one in the Gemara is indeed him, and he lived 200 years earlier than they claim. The Raavad in his Seder Hakabala brings both sides and seems to side with the view that it is him.

    Tosafos famously says that it can’t be him because Papus Ben Yehuda was in the time of Rebbe Akiva.

    You have to take this Shita with a grain of salt, since they might have been saying this to save their skin.

    #1121690

    cantgetit
    Member

    What does the Gemora say about him? And did the church censors force us to edit it out of the Gemora?

    #1121691

    dafbiyun
    Participant

    I found it interesting that the sugya of tumas avodah zarah was learned as the daf yomi on nittel nacht(and the following day).As many of you may know, it is a particularly difficult two blatt and it was wonderful to have 2 days off to prepare it properly. And I was pleased that everyone came to the shiur.( i know its not actually avodah zorah, but neverthelesss….)

    #1121692

    shmoel
    Member

    Reminder that tonights nittel (eve of Jan. 7.)

    Starting in 2101 it will be a day later, on the eve of Jan. 8. It will move an additional one day later every 100 years, except every 400th year.

    #1121693

    147
    Participant

    Please check this out, because some people at work told me that they are taking off January 8th, for Greek/Russian Orthodox xmas.

    #1121694

    WIY
    Member

    Nittel is a chassidish yom tov.

    #1121695

    Chortkov
    Participant

    What I don’t understand is: ??? ???? – Why does it start from Nacht of Christmas Eve? If it goes by the Jewish date, it should be nothing to do the 25th of December. If it goes by the Gregorian calendar, then it should be from 00:00 on the 25th, not from nightfall the night before?

    #1121696

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Somebody asked ?’ ????? ???????? that the world cannot exist without ????? ????, so he answered that ???? ????? ????.

    But then it follows that one cannot keep the ?????

    #1121697

    yichusdik
    Participant

    From a simple etymological perspective, nittel comes from the word “natalis”, which means “birth of” in Latin. But its not what you think. The date in late December was celebrated by sun worshippers (of whom there were many, all over the Mediterranean basin, 1900 years ago) as natalis invictus, the birth of the invincible sun, as that was the day the days began to get noticeably longer. Mithraism was more popular than christianity for a long time in the Roman empire, and they celebrated this particular day. Most scholars of early christianity will accede that if jesus was a historical figure, December 25 was not his birthday, and was adapted as such, like many pagan holidays (Samhain, Eoastre, etc.) to make the “new” religion more palatable to European and Levantine pagans.

    #1121698

    apushatayid
    Participant

    a “yom tov” 4 days before and after the equinox has been around since adam harishon.

    #1121699

    golfer
    Participant

    Yekke2, your question about starting the night before at nightfall has been addressed. Not by any Shu”t I’m familiar with, but by an old badchan routine. Perhaps you haven’t attended many chassidish weddings’ mitzvah tantz this time of year?

    Q. Farvooss on nittel, a goyishe choggeh (as in chag) do we begin the night before, and Peerrim, a Yom Tov bei Yidden, we celebrate the night after (the seuda usually goes on through the night of 15 Adar) ??

    A. Veill nittel halt men nuch a Yid- (we celebrate after a Jew), and Purim we celebrate after a goy- (we’re celebrating the hanging of Haman) !!

    #1121700

    Joseph
    Participant

    Is sackcloth donned?

    #1121701

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    A reason I heard when I was younger (I do not have a mekor, so don’t bother asking for one) was that the minhag came about due to the chiefly Catholic practise of midnight Mass (a Christian prayer). Seeing as the Christians would get up at midnight to pray, it would create a kitrug against the Yidden for not going to the same lengths. Therefore, it was deemed better not to learn at all and not create an unflattering comparison.

    If you accept this reason, then it makes sense to say that if you learn at all, you should learn the whole night. And that’s exactly what I intended to do, right up until the point I had to call the police after a fat man in a red suit broke my electric fireplace.

    #1121702

    oomis
    Participant

    When the goyim were out at their late-night services, if they were to see Jews coming and going to and from learning, they could be all stirred up from their anger at the Jews for “killing” their deity. So it was safer for Jews to not go to the Beis Medrash on nittel nacht.

    #1121703

    GG yekke
    Member

    i heard that some people ‘keep’ (r”l) nitul on the 25th, some on the 6th, some from the 25th to the 6th…. i keep it from the the 6th to the 25th

    #1121705

    Mammele
    Participant

    Look, you can choose to not approve my posts, but then maybe delete Sam2’s. Or at least get him to name the Mikvaos as it’s misleading at best.

    #1121706

    I saw an ad somewhere recently for a sefer that would address

    the gap between Jewish and secular history, because apparently

    there’s more than a century of missing time to account for. Maybe

    that has something to do with the Yoshke issue mentioned 2 years ago…

    #1121707

    Mammele
    Participant

    Okay, so now I look like a fool… But all I’m allowed to say that will hopefully go through is that just as one may learn after Chatzos on Nittel night regardless of how Chasidish one is…. so no mikvah I know of is closed for Nittel as there’s a simple solution.

    And since I don’t live everywhere or know everything those with concrete information to the contrary can chime in. That includes Sam2, who’s admittedly very reasonable and his posts are usually well thought out. I did not mean to hurt him, just felt this issue needs clarification.

    #1121708

    Mammele
    Participant

    Wow the Shidduchim topic sure is hot right now but I’d still appreciate it if someone can chime in here…

    #1121709

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    On which topic, the one you aren’t able to post?

    #1121710

    Mammele
    Participant

    Sorry Halevi, in case you’re serious. I wasn’t trying to be vague, and I did manage to get the gist of my post through this year.

    All I’m asking is whether anybody knows of Mikvaos closed Nittel night – let alone 4 nights as Sam implied earlier in this thread. No need to explore the “banned” part of my post.

    Once that’s settled we can continue talking about Shidduchim – and affording to be married – which is the topic weighing so heavily on our collective minds.

    #1121711

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If you’re taking a poll, I haven’t heard of it. At least not in Boro Park.

    #1121712

    dnetsk
    Member

    If Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam, it is astonishing that it would be banned for any other reason other than saraconos nefashos which would have been a problem in Europe. Having said that Minhagei Yisroel Kedoshim Haim, and a rav would need to be consulted today. I don’t see any quoted here. The gemara gives the name without a vav. Commentaries do suggest many gemara citations of the same name, so it’s not clear who it is, at all, by any stretch in the gemara stories.

    #1121713

    Mammele
    Participant

    Thanks Halevi. I’m not sure poll is the right word, I want to clarify it however possible.

    Sam2: Were you discussing Chabad maybe? Can you check your sources?

    I just want to get to the truth…

    #1121714

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mammele: I believe look in the Nitei Gavriel on Nittel.

    I also think there was also an article about it on Kikar last year.

    #1121715

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1121716

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: You’re right. I had forgotten. He was the source brought against the article on Kikar. But there was an article about which Chassidish groups in Meah Shearim (I think) close the Mikvaos and when, and it mentioned that some were closed all 4 nights so as not to upset nearby people with the different Minhagim.

    #1121717

    Mammele
    Participant

    Thanks Sam & DY.

    It seems almost everybody agrees that after Chatzos it’s okay.

    I haven’t read or heard about that Kikar article so I can’t comment on that. Any chance that we have a Meah Shearim resident (if Sam’s recollection is correct) here that can help us out? I’m still curious about that angle.

    As an aside it’s funny how my posts were getting deleted but B”h sforim (links) aren’t getting censored here…

    #1121718

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    So what do we wish each other, have a meaningful Nittel?

    #1121719

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Checkmate!

    #1121720

    Joseph
    Participant

    Anyone else donning sackcloth?

    #1121721

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Anyone else donning sackcloth?

    Nope. Not changing my routine at all.

    The Wolf

    #1121722

    golfer
    Participant

    In case anyone didn’t notice the date,

    the Nittel thread is back up.

    Ahhh…

    The wonders and benefits of the coffee room are numerous.

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 119 total)
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