No Sinas Chinom

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  • #1537565

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I was walking today, and saw a man who was clearly on a different level of religiosity than me (I could tell by the way he was dressed).

    With Rosh Chodesh Tammuz coming up, I’m aware that the Beis Hamikdosh was destroyed because of baseless hatred.

    So I need a basis on which to hate him.

    I noticed two things he was doing wrong.

    1) He has a smartphone.
    2) He was smoking.

    Which one is worse? Which one should I make a thread about saying what a chillul Hashem he’s making?

    Both?

    #1537589

    DovidBT
    Participant

    1) He has a smartphone.
    2) He was smoking.

    Is it possible that he needs the smartphone to stay in touch with a Smokers Anonymous support group?

    #1537588

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I thought it was because of free hatred. I always make sure to extract a price

    #1537583

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Write about how the smartphone is worse than the smoking but the smoking is also worse than the smartphone, which makes them mutually worse than each other, causing an explosion of evil.

    #1537602

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba:

    Welcome to the CR! Always nice to see new names here.

    #1537606

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Thanks. I actually used to post under the name Joseph

    #1537631

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I thought that was me.

    #1537663

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is it possible that he needs the smartphone to stay in touch with a Smokers Anonymous support group?

    If so, it obviously wasn’t working.

    #1537673

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If it wasn’t working, that makes it bitul zman.

    #1537707

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    So I need a basis on which to hate him.

    I noticed two things he was doing wrong.

    if you think he was doing something wrong that isn’t baseless

    #1537782

    Toi
    Participant

    Is that really pba? long time…

    Anyway, obvs the phone is worse. One will kill you, one will send you to hell.

    #1537799

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    if you think he was doing something wrong that isn’t baseless

    I don’t understand – if you think finding a fault in someone is valid basis to hate them, there’s no such thing as sinas chinom, because nobody is perfect.

    You must understand sinas chinom the same way @popa_bar_abba does.

    #1537803

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Toi, the cigs are also worse, because the death they cause is a suicide. Like I said, they are mutually worse than each other.

    #1537861

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Dy,

    Yes how else is chinam transalated?

    #1537890

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Sinas Chinam only applies when someone gives you Tochacha, it doesnt apply when you give it to others

    #1537915

    laskern
    Participant

    What is sinas chinom? It says לא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך, do not keep you hatred bottled up in your heart, הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך go admonish your friend. Explains the Yad Joseph on the Ein Yaakov Yoma 9 that this is an inexcusable hatred. When the hatred is excusable, he will tell the person the reason for his hatred bringing peace , but if it is not, like jealousy, he will not divulge his hatred and he will show a friendly face continuing the hatred.

    #1537966

    Meno
    Participant

    Sinas Chinam only applies when someone gives you Tochacha, it doesnt apply when you give it to others

    But what if you are the others and the others are you?

    #1537996

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes how else is chinam transalated?

    Without valid basis (which is a pretty high bar)

    #1538006

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    But what if you are the others and the others are you?

    Then you’re just hurting yourself. Like smoking. Or using smartphones.

    #1538047

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Without valid basis (which is a pretty high bar)

    I never knew baseLESS means valid base

    Chinam means free not worth very little

    #1538062

    laskern
    Participant

    See the Rashbam Vaykro 19:14.

    #1538073

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I never knew baseLESS means valid base

    So it’s not sinas chinom if I hate someone because he dresses differently than me?

    #1538088

    laskern
    Participant

    DY, I agree. Hating someone for dressing differently is real sinas chinom because you will not tell the person hated since it is not an excusable hatred.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by  laskern.
    #1538092

    laskern
    Participant

    It is a valid base it is not sinas chinom because you will not keep your hatred bottled up and will tell the person being hated bringing peace. See the Rashbam above and the Yad Joseph quoted above.

    #1538108

    laskern
    Participant

    Since it is important I will quote the Rashbam -If he does bad to you, don’t get to hate him (talk to him with nice words and in your heart plan against him) but admonish him for the bad deeds he has done to you which will eventually lead to peace. Says the Yad Joseph above that this only works for excusable hatred for offenses normally being hated for but for others he will not tell the hated individual because he has no valid reason to hate him, so he will keep his hatred bottled up in his heart causing sinas chinom.

    #1538109

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    See the Rashbam Vaykro 19:14.

    You must mean 19:17.

    Anyhow, he’s not defining חנם.

    #1538131

    laskern
    Participant

    Sinas Chinom is futile hatred with no benefit because the person hated will not change his ways causing hatred forever.

    #1538132

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    See רש”י in :שבת לב that חנם means where it’s not justified להלכה, and see משך חכמה in כי תצא that it’s almost never מותר.

    #1538148

    laskern
    Participant

    The Torah is realistic. People tend to hate each other when they do bad to them. So the Torah says don’t hate him but tell him about it. If you don’t tell him about it, it is still asur to hate but not sinas chinom but hatred bottled up in the heart. If you will not tell him about it because it is not a valid reason to hate him, you will have sinas chinom which will fester forever. If a person is a known rasha, you allowed to hate him so not to learn from him.

    #1538166

    laskern
    Participant

    What I said before is not correct. There is another level of sinas chinom where someone hates someone when he has a valid reason to hate him and does not tell the person about it but keeps the hatred bottled up in his heart. If he is a known rasha, you allowed to hate him so that you should not learn from him, אל תתחבר לרשע like it says don’t befriend a wicked person.

    #1538172

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I hear,

    So Sinas chinam is called baseless because the only time there’s a basis to hate someone is only when it’s l’halacha

    #1538627

    Health
    Participant

    To all Am Haaratzim here:
    Sinas Chinum applies even to people you are allowed to hate!
    That’s why we are still in Golus.
    Prove me why I’m right!

    #1538707

    Avi K
    Participant

    What’s wrong with a Smartphone? One of the participants in one my shiurim has one and helps contribute info. What are those who think differently doing here?

    #1538756

    laskern
    Participant

    Health, what does sinas chinom mean to you? if you are allowed to hate is it chinom?

    #1538873

    Meno
    Participant

    What does the phrase, “Sinas Chinum applies,” mean?

    #1538913

    Health
    Participant

    laskern -“Health, what does sinas chinom mean to you? if you are allowed to hate is it chinom?”

    Now you’re getting it.
    Obviously Chinum is Not the same in a person that you are allowed to hate!
    I’ll repeat – “Sinas Chinum applies even to people you are allowed to hate!
    Prove me why I’m right!”
    I’ll give a hint – Look in one of the Masechtos in Moed.

    #1538944

    laskern
    Participant

    Maybe chinom means free with no restrictions since you are allowed to hate him.

    #1538954

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Health, if you have something to say, please just say it.

    The games are silly.

    #1538960

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    How do u know his phone wasn’t meushar.
    Also what was he wearing that gave u the idea that he wasn’t so religious?

    #1538959

    Health
    Participant

    laskern -“Maybe chinom means free with no restrictions since you are allowed to hate him.”

    No, it means – for No reason at all!
    So why aren’t you allowed to hate a person that you’re allowed to hate?!?
    Start Moed again! It’s in the end of a certain Masectah.

    #1538981

    yrechnitz
    Participant

    For more about sinas chinam and smartphones, see the thread “Aren’t Smartphones Assur?” started by MasmidInTraining.

    #1539002

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How do u know his phone wasn’t meushar.

    Why should I assume it was?

    Also what was he wearing that gave u the idea that he wasn’t so religious?

    I didn’t want to get so specific, but I will say that he looked more religious than me, not less.

    #1539008

    yrechnitz
    Participant

    DaasYochid-It’s very nice that you’re working on yourself in terms of sinas chinam, but instead of looking for an excuse to hate him, be dan l’kaf zechus and look for an excuse not to hate him. If you can’t think of a way to be dan l’kaf zechus, just forget about it, and excuse it as “he probably had a reason”, which is none of your business, and get on with life. Smoking is horrible (and אסור), as is unfiltered internet (as you can see in the recent “Aren’t Smartphones Assur?” thread, I’m not sure why people are complaining about smartphones when the real problem is unfiltered internet. Perhaps you can shed some light on this.) Sinas Chinam, along with not being dan l’kaf zechus and labeling, are undoubtedly worse.

    #1539034

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If he looked more religious than you, any flaw in his behavior is utter hypocrisy.

    #1539042

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Really no hatred is baseless since the hater will always have what he considers a valid basis. And who are we to determine what is and isn’t valid? Therefore, there is no such thing as sinas chinom and we should all hate each other as we please, as the Torah instructed us to.

    Stay tuned for more YCT teshuvas.

    #1539088

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Really no hatred is baseless since the hater will always have what he considers a valid basis. And who are we to determine what is and isn’t valid? Therefore, there is no such thing as sinas chinom and we should all hate each other as we please, as the Torah instructed us to.

    Stay tuned for more YCT teshuvas.

    Thank you for getting my point.

    #1539100

    laskern
    Participant

    NC, Look at my posts the Rashbam and the Yad Joseph. If you have a valid reason to hate him, don’t keep the hatred bottled up in your heart, but tell him about it.

    #1539101

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yrechnitz: Please don’t take me too literally.

    As to the difference between smartphones and other internet connections, there are some differences.

    Without taking sides, perhaps I can shed light on why some want to ban them almost entirely.

    Putting aside the things that need to be filtered out, smartphone use tends to be somewhat “addictive” and the social implications are tremendous. I can elaborate if you wish, but there’s even a word describing one negative aspect. Phub.

    Being carried around all the time does create more of an issue with material which needs to be filtered out.

    There are arguments to be made to defend filtered use, but I just wanted to explain to you why some feel smartphones are worse.

    #1539180

    Avi K
    Participant

    Sinat chinam means hating someone because he has a different opinion or because he hurt you personally (this is the aveira of netira). Ahavat chinam is loving him because he opposes you. Rav Kook said that opposition comes to tell people where they are erring. The Mekor Baruch, in fcat, quotes the Tzemach Tzedek as saying that the Chassidim owed a debt of gratitude to the Gra for preventing them from becoming another heretical breakaway movement.

    #1540364

    there’s even a word describing one negative aspect. “Phub.”

    Huh. I’d not heard of that before.

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