Not wearing a tie at Mincha on Shabbos

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Not wearing a tie at Mincha on Shabbos

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Started 5 months ago by shmendrick
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shmendrick
Blocked

Many are medayek not to wear a tie at Mincha on Shabbos. It isn't merely due to the cholent stains. I am interested if anyone has a clear makor for this. IMHO:

There is an interesting Rashi and Ran in Nedarim daf 77 that notes a custom for women to remove their Shabbat jewelry on Shabbat afternoons towards the end of the day.

Based on this, the Shu”t Gur Aryeh Yehuda OC 13 argues that the requirement to wear Shabbat clothes is no longer in force from late afternoon onwards.

(Others say that it only applies to jewelry and not to general shabbos clothes - see Orchot Chaim, OC 300:2).

The Erech Shai OC 262 says the reason one is not required to wear Shabbat clothes at this time is to recall that Yosef, Moshe, and David passed away Shabbat afternoon.

I note the Magen Avraham OC 262:2 rules that one should not remove one’s Shabbat clothes until after Havdala.

Based on this, it makes perfect sense to be yotzei all opinions, to wear shabbos clothes to mincha but not wear the tie (which may be like jewelry).

Before I take on this new chumra of the week, are there any thoughts from the Yeshiva World out there?

Posted 5 months ago #
Curiosity
Not a cat person

I don't want to judge people unfavorably, but I doubt most people take it off because of halachic motivations. It's just easier to not put a tie on when you are more comfortable without it. Many people happen to not put it on for mincha, so that causes other people who would rather not wear a tie have no pressure to put it on. It's circular and has just become the norm. I think it's laziness 9 times out of 10, personally.

Posted 5 months ago #
R.T.
Member

Shabbos Mincha; no special nigunnim in Tefila (unlike Lecha Dodi, Kel Adon)
Shalosh Seudos -- simple food, bread, salads, etc...
We see from the above that the theme is more of simplicity, straightforwardness.

Posted 5 months ago #
shmendrick
Blocked

Curiosity - " I think it's laziness 9 times out of 10, personally."

Maybe it is simply because of the cholent stains?! LOL

You might be right when explaining stam people (who are indeed plagued with character weaknesses such as laziness), but talmidei chachomin are on entirely another caliber.

Chazal tell us that even their "dvorim bteilim tzrichim limud" (from their "idle" chatter one derives lessons), how much more so their hanhogos.

Talmidei chachomim and future gedolim whose entire life is dedicated to Torah, when such people don't wear a tie for mincha on shabbos, rest assured that there is halachic reasoning behind their actions.

I am considering instituting this minhag among my chaburah but would appreciate input from the hamon am. I don't want to suggest a minhag that ain rov hatzibur yecholim la'amod bah.

Posted 5 months ago #
147
-105

Wear all your Shabbos attire until after Havdoloh. Some opinions hold even until after Melave Malka, but at any rate, surely until after Havdoloh.

This business of only dressing up for Shul on Shabbos morning, but not for Friday nite nor the remainder of Shabbos after services have concluded on Shabbos morning, unfortunately is very misguided & secular to say the least.

Shabbos garb is not to impress your fellow Shul goers, but to honor Shabbos & thus to honor haShem, and indeed, even if you are on desert island for Shabbos, the Halocho is very clear, that you must still wear Shabbos attire.

Posted 5 months ago #
artachshasta
Member

I wouldn't institute it. Some people take off the tie for lunch and got the chulent stains on the shirt. Since both types of people exist, we should be careful not to be m'vayesh either group. Those with stained ties should put on a different tie at Mincha (since it is easier to change a tie than a shirt). Perhaps we should say that everyone should change ties for Mincha, shelo l'vaiyish the person with the dirty tie.

Posted 5 months ago #
rebdoniel
Proudly Modern Orthodox

The Shabbos Mincha Nusach is very simple; the same tune is used more or less for everything except Ata Echad.

But not wearing a tie is not a chumra. It is a practice I see as being very warranted and corroborated by the sources.

I don't wear a tie anyways on Shabbos, although wearing loud and flashy ties seems to be popular among the yeshivishe velt these days.

Posted 5 months ago #
2qwerty
Member

It's a sign that the person had a nice Shabbos nap.

And so those who had the opportunity get a chance to show off by not wearing the tie.

Posted 5 months ago #
shmendrick
Blocked

147- "... is very misguided & secular to say the least."

You are entitled to your opinion even though you disagree with Rashi and Ran in Nedarim, Shu”t Gur Aryeh Yehuda, Erech Shai (all cited above) and others.

But I must object when you call them "misguided & secular"!

Furthermore, we know that from the time of Mincha on Shabbos, we do not greet others with "Good Shabbos" because of the passing of Moshe Rabeinu, Yosef HaTzadik, and David HaMelech ( Minhag Yisroel Torah Orach Chaim 292:6; Nitei Gavriel Hilchos Yom Tov 2 Page 389:10 in the name of Sefer Minhagei Yeshurin Os 80 and Sefer Matamim), therefore, as the Erech Shai opines, it makes further sense not to wear a tie.

Posted 5 months ago #
yehudayona
Member

It might depend on when you daven mincha. In some backwaters, they have such a problem getting a mincha minyan that they shlep out davening in the morning and have an elaborate kiddush in order to daven mincha before people go home for lunch. This would eliminate the cholent stain theory (unless they serve cholent at the shul kiddush) and the nap theory (unless the drasha is sleep-inducing).

Posted 5 months ago #
tzarich_zivug
Member

@R.T.: "Shabbos Mincha; no special nigunnim in Tefila (unlike Lecha Dodi, Kel Adon)
Shalosh Seudos -- simple food, bread, salads, etc...
We see from the above that the theme is more of simplicity, straightforwardness."

interesting you say this, even though it's a norm to serve left overs, and in some populations even leave out seuda shelishis, Rav Pinkus ZT"L in his book " NEFESH CHAYA" states how important shabbos is and it is very wrong that people think less of seuda shelishis than friday night meals.
Seuda shelishis should not be a less of an important meal. he gave a classic example of shabbos b4 pesach he had a custom in his house to use proper china and not plastic goods in order to honor the shabbos properly.(even though these days plastic goods look amazing, on his level it was somehow disrespectful for shabbos)
So even though it's a norm to be more relaxed and simple towards the end of shabbos don't take it as the right thing to do / behave.

Posted 5 months ago #
rebdoniel
Proudly Modern Orthodox

I am a fan of the post-seuda Mincha minyan. On Shabbos, I usually go to a hashkama minyan, partake of the dairy/parve kiddush after, hang around to hear the rabbi's sermon in the main minyan, and then partake of the big fleshige kiddush, which functions for me as the seuda, after which I bentch and daven Mincha. This allows me to enjoy the rest of shabbos effortlessly.

Posted 5 months ago #
shmoolik 1
Member

possible source is chukos hagoy they wear ties all day till after evening cocktails
so we should take them off before not to be miss labeled

Posted 5 months ago #
Israeli Chareidi
Member

Shmendrik
"I am considering instituting this minhag among my chaburah but would appreciate input from the hamon am."

1)Why would you want to institute a new minhag at all?
One who has a minhag should keep to it.
The exception being: one who has no minhag or knows that it was lost.
2)If the case where the adoption of a new minhag is indeed warranted, why would you decide based on the opinion of the hamon am? I would suppose a close rebbie or rav would be a more appropriate address.

Minhagim are not to be trifled with. Chanuka should remind us that during a time of shmad one must give up his life even for the sake of a minor minhag.

Posted 5 months ago #
twisted
pretzel

YehudaYona, that would violate the psak of Tosafot that the three meals must relate to the three zmanei tefilah, of course in such wobegone places, there is no "capital" for such niceties.

Posted 5 months ago #
Astrix
Member

Gevalt..the world has come to this.Wearing a tie isnt a chiyuv at all so you shouldnt worry yourself with this shtus.Following chumras causes depression and sadness according to Rebbe Nachman of Breslov.I havent signed on to this place in 2 year but for this i needed to.

Posted 5 months ago #
R.T.
Member

"Furthermore, ..."Good Shabbos" because of the passing of Moshe Rabeinu"

Correct. This is the source of why in some communities Aleinu LeShabeach is not said after Shabbos Mincha (since it was authored by Yehoshua, Talmid Muvhak of Moshe Rabbenu)

Posted 5 months ago #
BaalHabooze
On the rocks

I personally knew of a very choshuv Rosh Yeshiva years ago who would stand by the Beis Medrash door before Shabbos Mincha and send any bochur not wearing a tie back to his dorm room. The "tieless look" is no more than a mishigas and laziness. It is still Shabbos at that time, no reason to dress down.
shmendrick- sorry, but your comparison of women's jewelery being parallel to a man's tie is a (bad) excuse and nonsense IMHO. You dress with a suit and tie from Friday night till Havdala Motzei Shabbos, period. Your first post was brilliant and you seem like a talmud chochom quoting those marei mekomos and being dan l'kaf zechus for all those who go tie-less. But I don't buy it.

Posted 5 months ago #
shmendrick
Blocked

Israeli Chareidi - "Why would you want to institute a new minhag at all?"

Astrix - "..the world has come to this.Wearing a tie isnt a chiyuv at all so you shouldnt worry yourself with this shtus.
Following chumras causes depression and sadness"

I am talking about a chumra which is based on halacha. Women wearing jewelry on shabbos is not a chiyuv per say, yet the Rishonim (Rashi and Ran) say that a woman shouldn't wear it at Mincha on Shabbos! Keeping halachic chumros and hanhogos are NOT depressing, chas v'sholom but enriching!

Israeli Chareidi - "why would you decide based on the opinion of the hamon am?"

A klal in Torah by hanhogas and chumros is "rov hatzibur yechulim" that the "hamon am" can or would accept. This forum is input from regular ordinary people who are yeshivish and machshiv Torah/halacha.

Posted 5 months ago #
147
-105

BaalHabooze
On the rocks

I personally knew of a very choshuv Rosh Yeshiva years ago who would stand by the Beis Medrash door before Shabbos Mincha and send any bochur not wearing a tie back to his dorm room. The "tieless look" is no more than a mishigas and laziness. It is still Shabbos at that time, no reason to dress down.

It sounds as if what I said on my earlier comment is in sync with this Rosh Yeshiva. After all, since when do we observe Availus bFarhesyo on Shabbos? It is unfortunate that some big shots passed away on a Shabbos afternoon, but this is no license to treat Shabbos afternoon casually.

Does this Rosh Yeshiva send Bochurim back to their dorm room, if they are wearing a Bow tie?

Posted 5 months ago #
shmendrick
Blocked

BaalHabooze - "your comparison of women's jewelery being parallel to a man's tie is a (bad) excuse and nonsense IMHO."

To frame the issue: Is a tie a malbush or a tachchit? A malbush serves a specific purpose to the wearer while a tachshit is merely an ornament. (I won`t get into the halachic details).

A tie does not add warmth or protect the body, nor does it clothe the person or serve a specific purpose unless the top shirt button is open and the tie holds the shirt collar closed.

It is merely decorative which makes it a tachshit.

As a tachshit, it had a din / geder of jewelry, therefore the dinim of jewelry apply, and it is not to be worn Shabbos afternoon!

Posted 5 months ago #
shmendrick
Blocked

BaalHabooze - "Your first post was brilliant and you seem like a talmud chochom quoting those marei mekomos and being dan l'kaf zechus for all"

Thank you but you seem to have forgotten to mention my humility.

Posted 5 months ago #
uneeq
Ironically, redundant subtitles can be redundantly ironic.

R.T. -Shabbos Mincha; no special nigunnim in Tefila (unlike Lecha Dodi, Kel Adon)

Not in all communities. Sephardim sing both uva letzion and kedusha. So does that mean that we need to wear ties and you don't?

Posted 5 months ago #
shmendrick
Blocked

I am happy to report that this Shabbos at mincha I saw many people without ties. They have accepted this new chumrah because of the discussion on this thread! B"H!!

Posted 5 months ago #
shmendrick
Blocked

I am happy to report that this Shabbos at mincha I saw many people without ties. They have accepted this new chumrah because of the discussion on this thread! It was a nachas to watch them be mochiach others who were wearing ties by pointing out the error of their ways. B"H!!

Posted 5 months ago #
Sam2
The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

Pashtus is according to the Gra there is always an Issur D'Oraisa of Chukas Aku"m to wear a tie.

Posted 5 months ago #
takahmamash
Member

Why wear a tie at all? I've not worn one in well over 5 years.

Posted 5 months ago #
WolfishMusings
The Wolf

I am happy to report that this Shabbos at mincha I saw many people without ties. They have accepted this new chumrah because of the discussion on this thread! It was a nachas to watch them be mochiach others who were wearing ties by pointing out the error of their ways. B"H!!

And I'm happy to point out that I wore a tie by Mincha this Shabbos, and the previous one and the one before that and as far back as I can recall. And, furthermore, I don't have any intention of stopping based on anything you may say in this thread.

The Wolf

Posted 5 months ago #
yayin yashan bkli chadash
Member

there's epis a be'er hagolah in orach chaim siman 694 that shtells tzu a rashba in trumos that brings the gemara in eruvin 105b where it hocks arien the sugya of bishul akum and kesher shel kayama, un durtin is shtait that those people that are noheg to wear maskutiramonos on shabbos, which the kadvu'z transalates as a strange group of people that used to wear colored clothes around their necks, that theres makom lehakel, uber zicher not on shabbos afternoon, when the change in tide may change a karmelis into a reshus harabim de'oiraysa,un memeilah we we can't come onto takanta atakanta, so therefore I wouldn't wee a tie to shul on shabbos afternoon. If you can't follow, just remember the rama in siman # 693 (which actually exists) that tov lev mishte tamid. L'chaim!

Posted 5 months ago #
shmendrick
Blocked

Elu v'elu - as long as it is l'shem shomayim, wear or don't wear the tie to mincha, but don't denigrate or mock those who act different because they have a honorable basis for their custom. Many did not the Rashi and Ran to remove jewelry for mincha, now they know.

Posted 5 months ago #
brisket
Member

My Rosh Yeshiva would say that the kedusha of shabbos keeps rising until it's over, and the zemer of Yedid Nefesh is only able to be sung during seudas shelishis because we can only attain such a high level at that time.
B'kitzor this is one of the holiest times of shabbos and we should show it the utmost respect with our clothes.
While it's true that we don't give shalom and we say tzidkoscha, but it doesn't say anything about removing begodim. Adarabah I would say the we don't give shalom and we say tzidkoscha is because we want to show some form of aveilus without taking away from shabbos.

Posted 5 months ago #
shmendrick
Blocked

brisket - "While it's true that we don't give shalom and we say tzidkoscha, but it doesn't say anything about removing begodim."

Begodim - no, but tachshitim (jewelry, at least on women) - it DOES say! (Rashi and Ran in Nedarim daf 77).

A tie may be "like" a tachshit/jewelry.

In no way to diminish the special holiness of the time after Mincha (shalash-seudos) which is of extra high spirituality, indeed adarrabah, it might be a time to remove some of our gashmiyus extraneous indulgences in fashion.

Posted 4 months ago #
Josh31
Member

The reality of late Shabbos in warmer climates or warmer times of the year in mid climates is that we are somewhat sweaty by late Shabbos.
Showering is not an option.
I have a hard time seeing a tie as a dress enhancement over a sweaty body.
Best is to dress respectfully (perhaps a new clean white shirt), but in a way that allows the sweat to evaporate.

Posted 4 months ago #
SilentOne
Member

Rabbi Paysach Krohn Shlita explicitely talked about this issue in one speech and urged the Olam to wear a tie at Shabbos Mincha as taking it off is disgracing the Kavod Shabbos. Plain and simple -no reason to "Dray a Kup" with any ridiculous Sevora to take off ties. In the Telzer Yeshiva, we all wore our ties for Shabbos Mincha and if we did not, we would certainly have been disciplined. Of all the Gedolim I have been Zoche to see, not one would come to Shul any time, least of all on Shabbos, without a tie. Those who would disgrace the Shabbos by such a causal attitude should be ashamed of themselves - it is in my opinion - to be like the Goyim around us who have turned casualness into a "style". That Charedi people should copy this in even the slightest way on Shabbos is a disgrace. In the Breuer's Shul, the Gabbai gave me on a tie to put on for an Aliyah on weekdays; who could imagine even walking into Shul without a tie on Shabbos!

Posted 4 months ago #
WolfishMusings
The Wolf

A tie may be "like" a tachshit/jewelry.

In what way?

The Wolf

Posted 4 months ago #
shmendrick
Blocked

A tie is only for ornamental purposes. A tachshit is an ornament.

Posted 4 months ago #
YW Moderator-42
Life, The Coffee Room, and Subtitles.

I did knot wear a tie by mincha today; nor at mincha; nor during mincha. Perhaps I was wearing a tie while they were davening mincha in Yerushalayim.

Posted 1 month ago #
popa_bar_abba
Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a man; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily cynical.

I have a new minhag to wear crocs to mincha on shabbos.

Posted 1 month ago #
WIY
Member

People are not aware of this but the kiddusha of Shabbos grows as the day goes on so the mincha of Shabbos is at a much more holy time than the Shacharis of Shabbos and shalosh seudos is the pinnacle of the holiness of Shabbos which is likely why the yetzer hora tries to get people to not take mincha and shalosh seudos on shabbos seriously but rather be chilled and laid back.

Posted 1 month ago #

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Not wearing a tie at Mincha on Shabbos

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