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Og`s offspring - are they "Bnei Noach"?

(28 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by shmendrick
  • Latest reply from shmendrick

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  1. shmendrick
    Blocked

    Og survived the mabul by hanging on to the tevah or by going to Eretz Yisroel where there was no mabul.

    Are his offspring considered "Bnei Noach"?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. shmoel
    Joseph

    Did he even have offspring after the mabul? He was quite old during the mabel.

    Besides, his children -- if their were any -- would have married Noach's offsprint, thus all would be Bnei Noach.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. just my hapence
    a penny for your thoughts, minus some change

    shmoel - Even if his children would have married Bnei Noach, it is only with Jews that yichus (as to nationhood) is matrilineal. For everybody else it is patrilineal, hence Og's sons would be Bnei Og, and if they would have married daughters of Bnei Noach their children would also be Bnei Og. Only the daughters' children would become Bnei Noach by virtue of being the children of male Bnei Noach. Whilst, over time, this would mean that the vast majority would become Bnei Noach, there would always be a few who were ben achar ben from Og and therefore not Bnei Noach. So to say "all would be Bnei Noach" is incorrect. The vast majority, maybe, but not all.
    I do, however, agree that it is far from certain that Og had any children post-mabul. At any rate, bizman Avraham Avinu, Og was not married.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Derech HaMelech
    King's Highway

    How do you get the ring onto a 410936027 foot giantess' finger? Conversely, how does a 4012745723865 foot giant put a ring on a girls finger without squishing her?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. shmendrick
    Blocked

    "just my hapence" wrote: "I do, however, agree that it is far from certain that Og had any children post-mabul. At any rate, bizman Avraham Avinu, Og was not married."

    We know the Rashi that Eliezer the servant of Avrohom had a daughter and he wished to wed his daughter to Yitzchok.

    According to the Pirkei d'Rebbi Eliezer, (chapters 16&23) Og is none other than Avraham's most trusted servant, Eliezer (Yalkut Shimoni Chaya Sarah 109, Machzor Vitri section 524. Daat Zikeinim of the Ba'alei haTosfot, Bereishit 24:39)!

    The Yalkut Shimoni(ibid) also accepts the identification of Og as Eliezer, while maintaining a negative appraisal of Eliezer.

    According to the Zohar, Og is one of the souls that Avraham brought close to HKB"H. (Zohar, Bamidbar 3:184a-b)

    In any event: if Og was Eliezer, he had wed and bore children, at the very least it is certain that he had a daughter.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. iced
    Joseph

    What is the difference, other than one of terminology, whether or not Og had male children? Legally the Bnei Og (if they exist) would be of the same status as the Bnei Noach. Thus the question is irrelevant from a practical standpoint. It is, at most, only theoretical.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. shmendrick
    Blocked

    Opinions that Og has male decedents:

    In Bamidbar 13:22, the Torah tells us that the spies saw Achiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the sons of Giants. Rashi tells us they were the descendants of Shamchazai and Azael, angels who fell from heaven in the days of Enosh.

    The Shaarei Aaron in Parshas Shelach Perek 13 Pasuk 33 mentions in the name of Reb Yeshaya and Rashi that they were descendants of Og since the Pasuk says "Vehu Nishar MiYeser HaRafaim". (However, Rabbi Samson Refael Hirsch maintains that it is not necessarily so that they were descendants of Og. He mentions the Gemara in Zevachim 113 that there was no Mabul in Eretz Yisroel and says it is possible that they survived as they were in Eretz Yisroel).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. Ðash®
    Member

    We know the Rashi that Eliezer the servant of Avrohom had a daughter and he wished to wed his daughter to Yitzchok.

    But to be consistant with Rashi, Eliezer had to be from a cursed lineage (Canaan).

    © Ю

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. lesschumras
    More Kulas

    Just my hapence, only religious identity is matrilinial. Nationhood was patrilinial. If your parents came from different shvatim, you belonged to your father's. Your identity as kohen, levi or yisroel is determined by your father, not mother

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. shmendrick
    Blocked

    Dash - "Eliezer had to be from a cursed lineage (Canaan)."

    Canaan was from the lineage of Noach who traces to Sheth.

    Alternatively, if Eliezer was Og, he may have been from "another" cursed lineage: Cain (the murderer).

    iced - "What is the difference, other than one of terminology, whether or not Og had male children? ... Thus the question is irrelevant from a practical standpoint. It is, at most, only theoretical."

    There are nearly 7 billion humans on Earth. The Torah dedicates multiple psukin to trace the lineage of various nations.

    Mathematically, if there are TWO sources of lineage: Noach and Og, then maybe half the world population has a totally different heritage.

    The Torah's psukim dedicated to lineage are not for halachic/practical purposes either, but Chas vesholom to say that they are irrelevant. The name of Esov's pilegesh Na'amah is as relevant as Anochi of the aseres hadibros. To say any differently would border on kfirah.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. yehudayona
    Member

    Perhaps professional basketball players are Bnai Og.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    At any rate, bizman Avraham Avinu, Og was not married.

    How would you know this?

    The Wolf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. iced
    Joseph

    Marriage cetificates from the Vital Records Bureau in Ur Kasdim, Mesopotamia.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. nem621
    Member

    would a bnei og have to keep the 7 mitzvot of bnei noach?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    would a bnei og have to keep the 7 mitzvot of bnei noach?

    Yes, because the term "ben Noach" in this case is merely a shorthand for "humanity."

    Noach's ancestors also had to keep the seven (six) mitzvos -- and they certainly weren't "b'nei noach."

    The Wolf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Better question is if Og's kids are allowed to eat meat. Since they didn't save the animals.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. nem621
    Member

    well maybe noach made it that since he saved the animals humans in general are above them therefore we can eat them

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Ðash®
    Member

    Alternatively, if Eliezer was Og, he may have been from "another" cursed lineage: Cain (the murderer).

    What indication do you have that the curse of Cain extended to his decendants? Or even that Og was a decendant of Cain?

    © Ю

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    According to one answer in the Ramban it comes out that Noach's daughter's-in-law were children of the giants. This is another explanation how the giant race survived the Mabul.

    According to the other answer that Og himself survived, the Navi in Yehoshua explains that all the giants in Eretz Yisrael were defeated by Yehoshua and his army. The only four remaining giants lived in the land of the Plishtim. They were Goliass and his three brothers. Dovid and his army killed them in later years. This is why there are no giants today. I can look again for the sources for all this if anyone is interested.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    Therefore nowadays these questions don't apply but I wonder about in earlier years.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    Anyways, some of the 7 Mitzvos were given to Adam and therefore would apply to Og too.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. Torah613Torah
    (613)Torah²

    Well, Moshe Rabeinu was in one Medrash 10 Amos, or 20 feet tall. So why are most Jewish men nowhere near that tall?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    Moshe was an exception in many ways. He was prepared already from birth to be the leader. This may have included the correct physical build required for the proper respect he deserved

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. shmendrick
    Blocked

    Ðash® - "What indication do you have that the curse of Cain extended to his decendants? Or even that Og was a decendant of Cain?'

    The decedents of Kayin who have a "zeide" who murdered his brother, this must be a curse to their yichus. Murder seems to be in the same category of sin as Chom/Cannan's. Remember, we are dealing with a shidduch proposal of ELiezer to Avrohom. Avrohom rejects the shidduch based on a cursed yichus-lineage.

    Noach and his family were clearly decedents of Sheth, but Og "MAY" have been from another lineage - namely Kayin. At least, there is no necessity to say that Og comes from Sheth.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. just my hapence
    a penny for your thoughts, minus some change

    shmendrick - So you can quote Pirkei D'Rebbi Eliezer and Yalkut Shimoni, and yet you seem not to know basic Chumash. The ben achar ben lineage of Kayin died out in the 7th dor with Yuval, Tuval and Tuval Kayin. And their sister, Na'amah, was Noach's wife, which would make us all of 'cursed lineage' if ben achar ben is not important. Besides, the shitta that Og lived before the mabul and survived is based on his identification as 'hapolit' from the milchama of the 4 kings vs the 5 kings, the same medrash saying that his intentions were that Avraham would die and he could marry Sarah (hence the inference that he was not married at the time, Wolf...), and thus being descended from the 'Nefilim', who were from neither Shes nor Kayin (see Rashi there). The identity of these Nefilim is somewhat controversial, but see Ramban there. In any case, Og was most definitely NOT descended from Kayin, at least not ben achar ben.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. shmendrick
    Blocked

    To "just my hapence", your proof from the psukim is inconclusive. I wrote Og "MAY" have been from another lineage - namely Kayin. At least, there is no necessity to say that Og comes from Sheth.

    In any event, the original question was are the presumed decedents of Og "bnei Noach"?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. just my hapence
    a penny for your thoughts, minus some change

    shmendrick - As I thought I made clear, ben achar ben lineage from Kayin is impossible as they all died, even before the mabul. If not ben achar ben, then we are all 'cursed' as Noach's wife was from Kayin. Besides, as I then made clear, Og was descended from the Nefilim who were definitely not from Kayin either. So no, Og may NOT have been from Kayin. And I have already answered the original question.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. shmendrick
    Blocked

    Yasher koach!

    An additional comment, Rabenu Bachye, Devarim 21:34, cites that there was more than one Og, perhaps the name Og is actually a title and not a given name, analogous to "Pharaoh king of Egypt." He cites this as a legitimate opinion, though eventually he rejects this approach due to lack of Rabbinic evidence.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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