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Open Orthodoxy

(234 posts)
  • Started 1 month ago by lightbrite
  • Latest reply from Lilmod Ulelamaid

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  1. lightbrite
    Sees the light, just working her way there slowly :)

    Please explain open orthodoxy in layman's terms.

    For the past year I've read all these posts here and on other sites that talk about it. Yay. Nay. It's orthodox. It's not orthodox. Many opinions. I'm still clueless here. What is it?

    1) Do people actually affiliate themselves with OO?

    2) Is it an obvious thing (like perhaps as someone would be able to tell who is Chassidish, Yeshivish, or MO based on appearance, shuls, or hashkafah)?

    3) What's the difference between MO and OO?

    Thank you in advance

    Posted 1 month ago #
  2. Avi K
    Member

    There is an OO manifesto ("Open orthodoxy! A modern Orthodox rabbi's creed") which is on-line and by itself seems fine to me. However, Some OO "rabbis" have crossed the line perhaps due to the influence of other groups on YCT. This has led to a push-back by rabbis such as Avraham Gordimer.

    So far as I know from what I read on the Internet (I live in Israel) there is a difference in the shuls welcoming (apparently looking the other way) active (as opposed to celibate) gays and giving greater roles to women (e.g. aliyot, leading Kabbalat Shabbat). Hopefully they will take the criticism to heart and retreat a bit as did the Chassidim (according to the Tzemach Tzedek quoted in "Mekor Baruch" by Rabbi Baruch Epstein). According to Rav Kook this is the purpose of opposition to a new group.

    I think that MO is a bit more traditional in synagogue practice although now there is also Centrist Orthodoxy and Morethodoxy. Maybe the list of subgroups will become so cumbersome that people will return to tzaddikim/benoni'im/resh'im (also Rav Kook's view).

    Posted 1 month ago #
  3. DikDukDuck
    Nuclear duck

    Open "Orthodoxy" makes Modern Orthodox look like Chareidim.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  4. iacisrmma
    Member

    Open Orthodoxy is trying to push modern day societal norms and political correctness into an "Orthodox" environment even if it runs counter to halachah or accepted minhag.

    As an example, a recent ruling allows a woman to nurse a baby in shul while davening.

    1) Do people actually affiliate themselves with OO?

    Yes

    2) Is it an obvious thing (like perhaps as someone would be able to tell who is Chassidish, Yeshivish, or MO based on appearance, shuls, or hashkafah)?

    Yes and no. They are mainly affiliated with a Yeshiva and Shul in Riverdale (Bronx, NY)

    3) What's the difference between MO and OO?

    Modern Orthodox is a term generally used for what was once called "middle of the road". Frum but not yeshivish. What I would call those affiliated with the Young Israel movement or Yeshiva University. (I know this may not be a fair statement.)

    Posted 1 month ago #
  5. iacisrmma
    Member

    Just to add, myself and my wife both grew up in Young Israel shuls and many of our relatives still daven and our members of Young Israel shuls.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  6. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    Open Orthodoxy is basically taking up the space that used to be held by conservatve.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  7. K-cup
    Member

    Open Orthodox basically does not believe there is Torah Hashkafa. They openly say that we should find a way to make Torah reflect what we feel is right, and follow or own moral senses. Example, find a way to have women rabbis, activily support homosexual right to marriage, ECT...
    They openly say they do these things because they are the right thing to do, therefore do it. And just because the Torah seems to not support it, look harder and be more creative and you'll find a support

    Posted 1 month ago #
  8. lightbrite
    Sees the light, just working her way there slowly :)

    Thank you for your explanations.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  9. lightbrite
    Sees the light, just working her way there slowly :)

    Is The Torah dot Com an Open Orthodox site?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  10. gavra_at_work
    caution

    As an example, a recent ruling allows a woman to nurse a baby in shul while davening.

    Excuse me for being ignorant, but why is this an issue?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  11. lightbrite
    Sees the light, just working her way there slowly :)

    Thanks Mods :)

    Request to delete the last question about the website please. Got the answer. Also just realized a poster referenced an affliate.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  12. Lilmod Ulelamaid
    lishmo'a

    "As an example, a recent ruling allows a woman to nurse a baby in shul while davening.

    Excuse me for being ignorant, but why is this an issue?"

    I was wondering the same thing (maybe I'm also ignorant).

    I think people might be making OO sound better than it is. I was under the impression that they do things that are much more problematic than some of the things listed sound to me. I thought they don't say "shelo asani Isha". (personally, if that is true, I find their refusal to say it offensive and demeaning, aside from the more obvious problems).

    Posted 1 month ago #
  13. lightbrite
    Sees the light, just working her way there slowly :)

    YWN posted an article a few weeks ago about OO!

    Open Orthodoxy’s New And Dangerous Halachic Quest
    December 28, 2016

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/505012/open-orthodoxys-new-and-dangerous-halachic-quest.html#sthash.SxvnWfGr.dpuf

    Posted 1 month ago #
  14. iacisrmma
    Member

    LU: Nursing in shul? If one is not supposed to make a Brocha in front of a woman whose hair is not covered what do you say about a woman exposing her upper body? It is definitely a Davar ervah!

    Posted 1 month ago #
  15. mw13
    should really have a subtitle by now

    OO has essentially the same outlook as Reform - they don't really care what the Torah, Chazal and Halacha have to say; they just want to do espouse whatever views are currently "in", particularly about hot-button issues like same-sex marriage, feminism, humanism, being "green", and what have you. Now, they often attempt (with little success) to shoehorn these beliefs into words that a respected Rabbi, somewhere, has once said. But by and large, they do not care what the majority opinion of the Poskim and Rabbonim are, nor do they necessarily care what the true intention of the Torah or Chazal are.
    In short, regardless of what label one attaches to them, it seems to be pretty obvious that this movement has absolutely nothing to do with authentic Judaism.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  16. Lilmod Ulelamaid
    lishmo'a

    Iacisrmma- I was assuming she was in the women's section. I was also assuming that she was doing so tzniusly.

    I agree that it doesn't sound so appropriate, but I wasn't aware that it something that is discussed in piskei halacha (either to permit or to forbid). (which doesn't mean it's not - I was just wondering if it is and what the issue is).

    Or are you talking about a situation in which both those conditions are not present?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  17. Lilmod Ulelamaid
    lishmo'a

    "What's the difference between MO and OO?"

    The main difference is that OO has been declared off-the-map of Orthodoxy, and MO hasn't. Nowadays, it takes a lot for the Rabbanim to declare something as being off-the-map (my own terminology). They may speak strongly against certain Orthodox institutions etc, but they won't say that they aren't Orthodox.

    I think the Rabbanim had a lot of issues with OO for a while, but they only declared that they can't be considered Orthodox when they crossed a certain line.

    On the other hand, when it comes to MO, the Rabbanim have not declared that they are not Orthodox.

    MO is a very broad category and OO was the most left-wing of MO, but today it is not even considered MO since the Rabbanim have declared that they are not Orthodox.

    MO has many meanings and contains a very broad range. On the most right-wing side, there are people who are extremely Frum and have very Torahdik hashkafos, but do not want to call themselves Yeshivish for whatever reason.
    In some cases it is for sociological reasons (they didn't grow up in the Yeshivish world so they are not comfortable with the Yeshivish community or the label), and in other cases, they may differ on certain hashkafic issues, and in still other cases, they just have to give themselves a label and since they are not Yeshivish, they have to call themselves MO.

    For other people, MO means that they keep some halachos but not others. Often, this would involve not keeping hilchos tznius. In many of these cases, they may not be aware that these things are halacha and may think they are chumras.

    And then there are left-wing MO people who have very liberal hashkafos that are problematic according to the Torah, but either they are not quite left-wing enough to be considered OO or they really are that left-wing but they are not calling themselves OO.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  18. K-cup
    Member

    I saw the letter from the moetzes hagedolah about OO, is that what you are referring to by stating "OO has been declared off-the-map of Orthodoxy" by rabbanim?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  19. lesschumras
    fewerstrict

    LU, who are the Rebbaim that you are referring to? You make it sound like they are apart from MO but have a role in deciding if MO is Orthodox.
    I'm çurious about your definition of MO ( failure to observe tznius). There have been a number of arrests and convictions of right wing Jews in the NY area for all sorts of civil crimes ( Ponzi scbemes, fraud, bribery, slumlords etc ). Does failure to observe these kind of mitzvahs make them MO also?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  20. It is Time for Truth
    It is Time for You to Stop Putting Paragraph Breaks in the Middle of Sentences

    lesschumras,etc.,

    Strawmen are awfully useful,maybe little more than a distraction

    The Cardinal Precepts and the the 3 Chamuros without apologetics
    Is what is demanded

    Authentic rightwing MO are in ,everyone else is up in the air

    Posted 1 month ago #
  21. K-cup
    Member

    Open Orthodox say they follow all "Cardinal Precepts" very carefully and even more than most. because they take more rishonim into account.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  22. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    Authentic rightwing MO are in ,everyone else is up in the air

    According to your litmus test, Where does Young Israel, The OU, The RCA and YU belong?

    Do you kick them out?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  23. iacisrmma
    Member

    LU: In a non-tznius manner

    Posted 1 month ago #
  24. yytz
    Member

    "1) Do people actually affiliate themselves with OO?"

    Yes, but the number of people is very low. If you look at the alumni page of YCT you'll see they have placed people at a few shuls (usually small out of town shuls), though most of them end up with other jobs like at Hillels. Presumably at least some of the people at their shuls would consider themselves OO.

    "2) Is it an obvious thing (like perhaps as someone would be able to tell who is Chassidish, Yeshivish, or MO based on appearance, shuls, or hashkafah)?"

    Appearance: No. Shuls: only indication would be YCT rabbi (however, not all YCT rabbis are necessarily OO -- see below). Hashkafa: see below.

    "3) What's the difference between MO and OO?"

    MO means accepting traditional haskhafa and halacha 100% while being more open to university education, popular culture, involvement in modern society, perhaps even exploring the varying views in controversial areas such as Chazal and science, etc.

    OO means affiliating with an Orthodox shul, having a mechitza, identifying as Orthodox, and yet being more flexible about certain things (such as Biblical criticism, women's participation in shul, attitude toward non-Orthodox, etc.) Some individual OO rabbis have advocated or done very Reform-ish things, like saying you don't have to say shelo asani isha.

    Some OO are more or less the same as left-wing MO while some are like Conservative or Reform in their hashkafa (one, for example, claimed Moshiach will not necessarily be an actual person, chas v'shalom).

    I actually know one YCT-ordained rabbi who is hashkafically and halachically totally MO, not OO, and who is accepted as an Orthodox rabbi by all the other Orthodox rabbis in town. Even within YCT there is a lot of variety.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  25. Avram in MD
    Avram in the CR

    lesschumras,

    LU, who are the Rebbaim that you are referring to?

    I was curious about that as well.

    I'm curious about your definition of MO ( failure to observe tznius).

    That's not how lilmod ulelamaid defined MO. She wrote, "MO has many meanings and contains a very broad range.."

    There have been a number of arrests and convictions of right wing Jews in the NY area for all sorts of civil crimes ( Ponzi scbemes, fraud, bribery, slumlords etc ). Does failure to observe these kind of mitzvahs make them MO also?

    False equivalence. There is a difference between committing a sin and asserting that an act is not a sin.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  26. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    There are plenty of people who attend Young Israels who really arent that religious. They basically keep shabbos more or less and keep kosher more or less, but dont do much else.

    The women do not cover their hair outside of shul and wear pants and the men do not daven during the week. Pretty much everyone in shul knows these people.

    You can either tell them what they are doing wrong and risk they leave (and that does happen) or let them continue what they are doing as most do go to shul on shabbos on a regular basis and send their kids to day schools and live in a jewish area

    Posted 1 month ago #
  27. gavra_at_work
    caution

    LU: In a non-tznius manner

    1: Prove it.
    2: Prove that it is a problem as long as it is behind the Mechitza.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  28. gavra_at_work
    caution

    False equivalence. There is a difference between committing a sin and asserting that an act is not a sin.

    OK. Why must a woman keep what you call "Tznius" in an MO community where she dresses to the standards of her community? And what sort of "sin" is she committing?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  29. It is Time for Truth
    It is Time for You to Stop Putting Paragraph Breaks in the Middle of Sentences

    yytz, gavra_at_work,

    Very shrewd to quibble about minutiae

    Rabbi Gordimer among others have written extensively on OO

    in the December, 2013 Jewish Review of Books, Prof. Noah Bickart of JTS wrote in response to Daniel Gordis that, “It may be an unpopular opinion to my many friends and colleagues, but when the fundamentalist voices of the haredi press excoriate the “Open Orthodox” Yeshivat Chovevei Torah as in fact “Conservative,” I am offended by their mean-spiritedness, but the truth is that I fundamentally agree”. In the November, 2013 Times of Israel article titled, “Conservative Judaism may be failing but its ideas are not” , Judah Skoff wrote, “What should be obvious is that this new Liberal (or “Open”) Orthodoxy, and the traditional-egalitarianism nurtured by Yeshivat Hadar, have far more in common than right-wing Orthodoxy and left-wing Conservative Judaism, respectively… If the Conservative brand must fade, then let Conservative ideas re-assert themselves in new forms, with new movements and in new ways…”. In an article titled “Conservative Movement’s Impact On The Left And Right”,(1/14 Jewish Week), a Conservative rabbi wrote, “I am sanguine that Conservative Judaism lives because much of its take on tradition and change has leaked into Reform and Orthodoxy. According to Brandeis University professor Jonathan Sarna, “Solomon Schechter never wanted to create a separate movement.”(he also considers Bat Mitzvahs, pre-nuptials,and Koren Press’ Magid imprint a credit to the Conservative movement).

    Posted 1 month ago #
  30. huju
    Slightly to the right of Bernie Sanders

    Re Avi K's first post: You mention YCT, but there is no such thing as Yeshiva of Central Toledo.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  31. It is Time for Truth
    It is Time for You to Stop Putting Paragraph Breaks in the Middle of Sentences

    Call them Reformodox .it is more appropo

    Many of OO are to the Left of some the Conservative movement.

    Nomenclature is of import

    Posted 1 month ago #
  32. huju
    Slightly to the right of Bernie Sanders

    "Open Orthodoxy" is what Moses said the first time he tried to open the Ark. He saw some pagans saying "open sesame" to clear the entrance of a blocked desert cave, and he thought something like it might work on the Ark. But no. You can look it up in Mishnah Mishugah.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  33. Lilmod Ulelamaid
    lishmo'a

    lesschumras: "LU, who are the Rebbaim that you are referring to? You make it sound like they are apart from MO but have a role in deciding if MO is Orthodox."

    I probably should have qualified the statement by putting "my impression is" in front of it. I didn't do so because I thought it was a given although I don't have sources. To answer your question, I do not remember who the Rabbanim were, but I read that many Rabbanim declared them as being non-Orthodox. I thought that both MO Rabbanim and Chareidi Rabbanim considered them non-Orthodox, unlike all other streams of MO which (as far as I know) have not been declared as non-Orthodox. I think it may have been the RCA which declared them as non-Orthodox. There are probably others here who know more about it.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  34. Avram in MD
    Avram in the CR

    gavra_at_work,

    OK. Why must a woman keep what you call "Tznius" in an MO community where she dresses to the standards of her community? And what sort of "sin" is she committing?

    When lilmod ulelamaid asserted that some "MO" women do not follow all of the halachos of tznius, lesschumras could have responded as you did, "how so?" But he instead essentially responded, "well some people in YOUR camp commit theft! How 'bout that??" That's a false equivalence, because everybody agrees that a thief is doing the wrong thing (even the thief, because he hides his actions from public view), but the dress code is in debate, with some thinking it is wrong, and others not.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  35. Lilmod Ulelamaid
    lishmo'a

    "OK. Why must a woman keep what you call "Tznius" in an MO community where she dresses to the standards of her community? And what sort of "sin" is she committing?"

    If it's against halacha, it doesn't matter if it's according to the standards of her community.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  36. Lilmod Ulelamaid
    lishmo'a

    Iacisrmma: "LU: In a non-tznius manner"

    GAW: "1: Prove it.
    2: Prove that it is a problem as long as it is behind the Mechitza."

    Iacisrmma, thank you for clarifying.

    Is the issue that men might see her (either because they can see through or over the mechitza or from the hallway or if they happen to come in to the ladies section which does happen sometimes, since they are allowed to do so if they are not in the middle of davening), that it is halachically assur for women to daven in front of another lady who is not tznius, that it is not nice to the other women who might not want to daven in front of someone untznius, or that she shouldn't be davening while nursing?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  37. Lilmod Ulelamaid
    lishmo'a

    "I'm curious about your definition of MO ( failure to observe tznius)."

    "That's not how lilmod ulelamaid defined MO. She wrote, "MO has many meanings and contains a very broad range.."

    "There have been a number of arrests and convictions of right wing Jews in the NY area for all sorts of civil crimes ( Ponzi scbemes, fraud, bribery, slumlords etc ). Does failure to observe these kind of mitzvahs make them MO also?

    "False equivalence. There is a difference between committing a sin and asserting that an act is not a sin."

    Avrum, shkoyach! Regarding the first point, it is possible that lesschumras was only referring to one of my definitions of MO. In any case, you answered the question for me.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  38. It is Time for Truth
    It is Time for You to Stop Putting Paragraph Breaks in the Middle of Sentences

    This is OO/Conservative method:

    1) Decide what conclusion you want to arrive at. This will often be based on predicting what the Jewish ethical response must be in a world that has changed so significantly from the early legal texts of Judaism, that the modern author is given much leeway.
    2) Find a few gemaros that seem to deal with the issue. If they don’t agree with your conclusion, either ignore them altogether, or find some understanding of each counterexample which will make it irrelevant to our times. This can be done by finding a single Rishon whose explanation of the gemara makes it possible to argue that the rabbis of the Talmud simply would not have said the same thing today. It doesn’t matter if that Rishon’s thinking is outweighed by a huge number of contradictory opinions.
    3) Alternatively, show why such thinking is simply at odds with contemporary insight and reasonableness, and therefore must be discarded as foreign to the “spirit” of Jewish law and its inherent resiliency and flexibility.
    4) Find a medrash as a springboard to show how quintessentially Jewish, how much in the spirit of Jewish law your own conclusion is.

    4.5) There is a positive injunction to be happy. God wants us to be happy. This innovation will make us happy. Therefore, the aseh of being happy pushes aside whatever Aveirah we’re concerned with.
    5) Accept your original argument.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  39. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    YCT = Yeshiva Chovevei Torah

    Posted 1 month ago #
  40. gavra_at_work
    caution

    If it's against halacha, it doesn't matter if it's according to the standards of her community.

    If the Halachos don't depend on the standards themselves.

    Avram in MD - Fair point.

    IITFT - I'm not disagreeing with the overall criticism of OO, which is much more insidious than what has been described until your last post. The big problem (as you point out) is that they know what they want the "Halacha" to be and then go about trying to justify it, vs. a truthful search of what the Halacha should be.

    In all fairness, we see the same on the right and the left, but in the case of the left/OO real halacha is broken, vs. in the case of the right some unneeded societal rules are justified in the name of Judaism. I've hear/seen the same when spouses fight and one brings in "Frumkeit" or "Modernness" to justify their side. It is not that they know the Halacha and sources, rather they want something and are trying to justify it using the Torah as a "Kardom Lachfor Bo".

    The two examples (nursing and Tznius) brought earlier though are (I believe) incorrect from a Halachic standpoint.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  41. Avi K
    Member

    Lilmod, in fact, I know a Chareidi rav who tried to justify the fact that some "frum" guy helped people receive insurance payments even though they were not insured by saying that he did not personally profit but just wanted to do chesed (interestingly, the Torah says that marrying one's sister is chesed). So far as I know, OO rabbis say that certain acts are sins but that the sinners should be mekareved by looking the other way.

    Time, your points are also true about people in other factions. There enough opinions for people to pick and choose. There is even an opinion that it is permitted to rob a goy (Baba Metzia 111b). Ok so it's not the halacha but why can't one rely it anyway? Not saying lashon hara about a fellow Jew? You call him a Jew? Not derided a talmid chacham? You call him a talmid chacham?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  42. iacisrmma
    Member

    gaw: I am not sure what you mean by "prove it". If you are talking about allowing a woman to nurse a child in a non-tznius manner here is a quote from the "tshuvah" of Rabbi Katz of YCT:

    וכן נקטינן להלכה שמותר לאשה לברך ברכות כששדיה מגולות .

    אשר על כן ברור שמצד הדין שאסור לגלות ערוה בבית הכנסת, אין שום בעיה כשהדד מתגלה לכמה רגעים בשעת ההנקה, כיון שהשד כשלעצמו אין לו דין ערוה.

    So we see that he is is stating that a woman can have herself exposed for a number of minutes since to herself it is not an "ervah".

    So yes, IMO that is the definition of "in a non-tznius manner".

    Posted 1 month ago #
  43. gavra_at_work
    caution

    iacisrmma - That is the correct P'sak according the the Mishneh Brurah (75:8), who holds that a woman's "ervah" is not applicable to another woman except for one spot (not her chest). Therefore it is not B'chlall "Ervas Davar" (as long as it is in the Ezras Nashim) which would be Assur.

    This is not "Open Orthodox", this is quoting the P'sak of the Mishna Berurah.

    Now if you had said "in front of a man", then we would have what to discuss.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  44. iacisrmma
    Member

    gaw: The Ezras Nashim is not part of the Beis Knesses?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  45. There is a lot of information about Open Orthodoxy here: link removed
    Why Open Orthodox is Not Orthodox by David Rosenthal

    Posted 1 month ago #
  46. gavra_at_work
    caution

    iacisrmma - Shaychus? It isn't an Ervah.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  47. K-cup
    Member

    David Rosenthal, check out topic Izhbitza chassidus and open Orthodox

    Posted 1 month ago #
  48. benignuman
    The Congenial Na Nach

    "If it's against halacha, it doesn't matter if it's according to the standards of her community."

    Much of the halachos of tznius are dependent on the standards of the community.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  49. Lilmod Ulelamaid
    lishmo'a

    Avi K: "Lilmod, in fact, I know a Chareidi rav who tried to justify the fact that some "frum" guy helped people receive insurance payments even though they were not insured by saying that he did not personally profit but just wanted to do chesed (interestingly, the Torah says that marrying one's sister is chesed). So far as I know, OO rabbis say that certain acts are sins but that the sinners should be mekareved by looking the other way."

    Avi, I'm not sure what comment of mine this was in response to? Please clarify. Thanks!

    Posted 1 month ago #
  50. Lilmod Ulelamaid
    lishmo'a

    Lul: "If it's against halacha, it doesn't matter if it's according to the standards of her community."

    GAW: "If the Halachos don't depend on the standards themselves."

    I was referring to halachos that are not dependent on standards.

    Lesschumras, GAW, and anyone else who seemed to be questioning my definitions of MO:

    I want to clarify that I was giving definitions of MO based on how I have heard the terms used by those who call themselves MO. I was not giving a personal opinion regarding how I think the term should be used. I also listed a wide range of usages.

    The part about tznius was not meant to apply to all of those who call themselves MO. I have a friend who considers herself MO who I consider to be one of the most tznius people I know (just for the record, GAW, she wears things that would not be considered acceptable in Yeshivish communities, but she dresses far more tzniusly than many Yeshivish people who would not wear those styles). I know many others like this as well.

    But, there are also MO people who use the term to refer to the fact that they keep some halachos and not others. For example, I once saw an advertisement looking for someone to work in a bungalow colony that was described as MO and in parentheses it said mixed swimming. They were calling themselves MO BECAUSE they had mixed swimming. That was their definition of MO. I have yet to see someone advertise that they are Yeshivish and write in parenthesis after the word Yeshivish that they engage in civil crimes and this is the definition of Yeshivish.

    Again, to be clear, this is one way that the term MO is used by people who refer to themselves as MO. There are many others. Many of the people and definitions even overlap with the definitions of Yeshivish or Chareidi (certainly my defintion of Chareidi :)). There are definitely many ehrlich people who are makpid on halacha who refer to themselves as MO. Some of them are probably here in the CR.

    Posted 1 month ago #

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