Pearl Harbor Day

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  • #618792

    Joseph
    Participant

    In remembrance of our heroes who gave their lives for our freedom – on their 75th anniversary.

    #1197398

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I’m Jewish.

    #1197399

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LU: And you don’t think that yidden weren’t killed that day?

    #1197400

    Joseph
    Participant

    Hashem made American soldiers His agents to protect Jews. Hakaros Hatov is a Jewish attribute.

    #1197401

    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, was Rav Avigdor Miller zt’l less Jewish than you? This is what he had to say on a related note:

    QUESTION:

    Displaying the American flag, is that considered a gentile ideal?

    ANSWER:

    We hang out the flag from this Shul on the Fourth of July.

    #1197402

    Joseph
    Participant
    #1197403

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I was referring to the terminology “our heroes” not to the concept of hakaras hatov. I could be wrong, but to me “our heroes” implies that we consider ourselves to be part of the same nation as them (as opposed to having a hakaras hatov to someone from a different nation). Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think that Jews in England or Israel or Australia refer to them as our heroes.

    #1197404

    Joseph
    Participant

    If an English Jew was saved by British soldiers, I think he’d correctly refer to them as his heroes.

    #1197405

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I know what Rav Avigdor Miller Zatsal says about the American Flag. I may be wrong, but I happen not to agree. While hakaras hatov is important, I think that it is important to remember that we are not Americans. And I may be wrong, but I never heard of any other Gedolim saying that we should put out an American flag.

    It is brought down that Moshe Rabeinu was punished for referring to himself as a Mitzri. It is important to remember that we are Jews and not Americans, imho.

    “Hashem made American soldiers His agents to protect Jews. Hakaros Hatov is a Jewish attribute.”

    Maskim.

    #1197406

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “If an English Jew was saved by British soldiers, I think he’d correctly refer to them as his heroes.”

    That doesn’t contradict what I said – it only proves my point. You aren’t referring to the American soldiers as “our heroes” because they saved Yidden in Europe. If that were the case, then the British Jews would refer to them as “our heroes” as well and would also be celebrating Pearl Harbor day.

    It seems that you are referring to them as “our heroes” because you consider yourself to be American, and that is what I was objecting to.

    #1197407

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And when that wicked Supreme Court permitted burning an American flag, and saying you can not make a law against it, it was a desecration of America.

    The Supreme Court did not permit anything,It was the Constitution that did.

    #1197408

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    But again, hakaros hatov is an admirable attribute and shkoyach for having it. I just would have phrased things slightly differently

    #1197409

    Miriam377
    Participant

    My flags went up at 6:15 this morning, because it was still dark, the lights remained on until 7:30 when I had a break from work to turn them off. The flags will be proudly flown until 4:45 when I get home from work and the lights will go on early to illuminate the flags after dark as part of the US Flag Code.

    #1197410

    Joseph
    Participant

    As far as the flag, if Ponovezh puts up the Zionist flag on Zionist independence day, lhavdil there’s certainly no reason to object flying the American flag on July 4th.

    #1197411

    Avi K
    Participant

    I would think that any Jew would refer to any soldier who saved him as his hero. Moreover, American exceptionalism is an empiric fact. America is a nation of nations. In many ways it has been the Am Yisrael of the gentiles (e.g. seeking tikkun olam). IMHO, an America based on traditional American values would be the perfect partner for an Israel based on traditional Jewish values. It is for this reason that I share the view of David Brog and Yoram Hazony, as expressed on-line in “The Nationalist Spirit of 2016: A Conservative Spring?” that the rise of nationalism is good for the Jews.

    In any case, I must agree with Joseph (difficult as it is for me to type these words – LOL) regarding hakarat hatov. A book, “At Home in Two Countries: The Past and Future of Dual Citizenship” by Peter J. Spiro, has even been published attesting to the benefits of dual identification (full disclosure: I have only read the review and I unfortunately do not receive a commission for mentioning it).

    #1197412

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why do you assume I’m not referring to them as our heroes for saving millions of European Yidden? Your kasha, perhaps, should be why don’t British Yidden also refer to them as heroes (assuming they don’t.)

    They also protect millions of Yidden in America.

    #1197413

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – I was assuming that that was your conscious intention. However, it seemed to me (and perhaps I am wrong) that even if that was your conscious intention, your words may have proved otherwise.

    My proof was the fact that it is only American Jews who say “our heroes”. It it were only about the Yidden in Europe and not also about identifying as an American, then all Jews would be referring to them as “our heroes”.

    It sounds like your response is that you think that British Jews should also say “our heroes”. That is a good response if that is what you really think. But that only works if you do in fact refer to all goyim from all nationalities who have helped Yidden as “our heroes”.

    Maybe I’m wrong and maybe you do. Do you?

    Avi & Joseph – I am not arguing against the hakaros hatov aspect. I am only nitpicking regarding the perceived over-identification with America. But I may be wrong. In any case, the hakaros hatov is certainly admirable and more important than the exact lashon used.

    #1197414

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avi: “In any case, I must agree with Joseph (difficult as it is for me to type these words – LOL)”

    Hey, Health just agreed with me on another thread. If Health can agree with me, then anyone can agree with anyone.

    #1197415

    Joseph
    Participant

    I would certainly refer to anyone, from anywhere, who saved (or even protects) millions or hundreds of thousands of Yidden as heroes. I think British Yidden also credit the American armed forces of the WWII era as heroes.

    #1197416

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “I would certainly refer to anyone, from anywhere, who saved (or even protects) millions or hundreds of thousands of Yidden as heroes. I think British Yidden also credit the American armed forces of the WWII era as heroes.”

    Precisely – “heroes”, not “our heroes”. Again, maybe I’m nitpicking but it strikes me as significant that you used the term “our heroes” when referring to the Americans and “heroes” when referring to the others and when you referred to the way that the Brits would refer to the Americans.

    Also, do you commemorate the days when other countries helped Yidden?

    #1197417

    Joseph
    Participant

    When someone saves your life, or your Jewish brethrens lives, they’re your heroes.

    If you give me dates other countries saved Yidden or gave their lives protecting Yidden, I’d certainly commemorate them. I commemorate those in Europe who protected/saved Yidden during the Holocaust.

    #1197418

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There were thousands of jews who fought with the US armed forces in the liberation of Europe. Im sure you heard of lieutenant Birnbaum

    #1197419

    Moshe1994
    Participant

    @LU What do you mean by “our heroes” and why can’t American soldiers especially the ones that liberated us from the holocaust be included in that category?

    #1197420

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Americans Liberated Buchenwald

    The British Liberated Bergen Belsen

    The Red Army Liberated Auschwitz

    #1197421

    akuperma
    Participant

    We should look at Pearl Harbor as an example of Haschagas Pratis.

    Many in Japan thought that attacking the US was a bad idea. They could have attacked the Soviet Union, or limited their attack to the British territory (Malaya, Singapore and Australia) while leaving the US alone. It’s not clear the US would have entered World War II had Japan not launched the attack. Most of Europe had been under German control for over 18 months, and the Germans were no longer a serious threat to conquer Britain. One can easily come up with a scenario under which the US stays neutral, and the war ends in 1942 with Germany controlling Europe. Had the US not entered the war, the Nazis would still control all of Europe, perhaps including Russia (with Japan attacking from one side, the US neutral, and Britain agreeing to an armistice – leaving Germany and Japan free to conquer the Soviet Union).

    #1197422

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “When someone saves your life, or your Jewish brethrens lives, they’re your heroes.

    If you give me dates other countries saved Yidden or gave their lives protecting Yidden, I’d certainly commemorate them. I commemorate those in Europe who protected/saved Yidden during the Holocaust.”

    Very commendable. I was under the impression that you only used the word “our heroes” to refer to American soldiers because you identify as an American. Maybe I was wrong. It’s not all that important either way.

    #1197423

    lesschumras
    Participant

    LU, your attitude is deplorable, and, hypocritical. If we are Jews, but not Americans, then give up your citizenship, don’t vote, don’t demand benefits ( I.e. bussing, section 8, Medicaid, beneficial zoning ). It seems we’re Americans if it means getting, but Jews when it comes to giving back. Places like Kiryas Joel are able to live their Jewish life precisely because they exercise their rights as Americans to vote and obtain what they are entitled to. Being Jewish and American are not mutually exclusive

    #1197424

    lesschumras,

    Once upon a ..

    it could’ve been merit to what you contend.

    Today however ,orthodox have become so hasty to adopt american norms because”Being Jewish and American are not mutually exclusive” after all, that we must reestablish

    Chukos ha’goyim

    Second, Goyim invariably come to despise yidden who wish to prove they are more

    American than the americans

    or more Dutch than the dutch

    #1197425

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Lesschumras – it’s two different things. Identifying culturally as an American has nothing to do with giving or taking.

    I made it very clear that hakaras hatov is important; I was merely cautioning about identifying as an American culturally. As far as I understand, according to the Torah we are supposed to identify only as Jews. Moshe Rabeinu was punished for calling himself a Mitzri even though he received a lot from Mitzrayim (he was even brought up in the palace).

    I’m happy to hear your opinion and to debate with you, but I would appreciate it if you could try to express your opinion more respectfully. TIA.

    #1422572

    Joseph
    Participant

    Everyone please lower your flags to half-staff.

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