People Without a Rov

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  • #1413305
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Most women have never learned Mishna Berura. ”
    “True, but Joseph’s comment was about the typical frum household, which usually isnt just women.”

    There are a lot of single, divorced, and widowed women. If you also add in women who are married to men who do not have a Yeshiva background, that includes a lot of people. Furthermore, even if someone is married, her husband isn’t necessary around or available when the sheila arises. And when Joseph wrote “household”, I thought he was referring to all of the members of the household.

    “The discussion is about “typical frum homes” I grant there are some who cannot read a Mishne Berura but It is fair to say the “Typical” product of a yeshiva system can.”

    There are a lot of people who think they can understand things that they can’t. I have often noticed posters in the CR thinking that someone wrote something that they didn’t write. And this is in english. And it’s not that they realized that they didn’t understand what the person wrote – they were positive that the person had written something that they hadn’t. So what happens if the same person is convinced that he knows what the MB is saying, and in fact, he doesn’t?

    (and just in case anyone thinks I am thinking about them specifically, I am thinking of several posters, and not one specific one)

    #1413312
    slominer
    Participant

    If shailos several times per week is what many people are accustomed to, wouldn’t all pulpit rabbonim, or whoever is answering these shailos, be very busy every day answering many many shailos? Especially if they have a large congregation.

    A shul with even just 50 regular mispallelim each calling their Rov several times a week should keep the Rov occupied close to full-time just answering shailos. Is this the common busy-ness of most rabbonim who answers shailos? If he has 100 regulars he probably has to stay up late each night answering all the shailos.

    #1413330
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Furthermore, not all sheilahs (even the daily/weekly type) can be answered by looking it up in the Mishna Berurah. ”
    “By far most can. the only ones you may have trouble with are technological questions (and of course non-OC questions) I concede there wil l still be a few shailas as I said. note I ever said no questions arise”

    I gave many other reasons and examples. From my experience, sheilahs that can’t be answered in the MB come up at least once or twice a week.

    #1413358
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “If shailos several times per week is what many people are accustomed to, wouldn’t all pulpit rabbonim, or whoever is answering these shailos, be very busy every day answering many many shailos? Especially if they have a large congregation.”

    1. That’s probably another reason why people don’t actually ask all the questions they have. It wouldn’t be practical. In the case of several of the questions I mentioned, really what people should be doing is learning the halachos.

    For example, with hilchos brachos, I came up with this list because I learned and taught hilchos brachos, and I realized after I learned it, that I really had these questions all along.

    With many or most of the issues, I may have realized that I had these questions, but I was reluctant to ask because if I don’t know about an entire area of halacha, what I need to do is to learn that area of halacha. I can’t just call a Rav and ask him to teach me all of hilchos brachos (or even a particular topic in hilchos brachos) on the phone in 2-5 minutes.

    2. That is probably why they have halacha hotlines.

    #1413373
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “There are a lot of single, divorced, and widowed women. If you also add…”

    sigh the question was about (and I quote ) “…an average frum family…”

    “I have often noticed posters in the CR thinking that someone wrote something that they didn’t write”
    Lol, yes we all have 😉

    “So what happens if the same person is convinced that he knows what the MB is saying, and in fact, he doesn’t”
    Im confused. then he DEFINITELY wont be asking his Rav a question. that is’ the guy you are arguing, asks questions?

    “From my experience, sheilahs that can’t be answered in the MB come up at least once or twice a week.”
    Ok I get it. Though that hasnt been my experience, (and your examples arent compelling) and I do not think that is the experience of the “average frum family” but admittedly, perhaps there is no such thing.
    I ma curious about your thoughts on SLonimer’s point

    #1413387
    benignuman
    Participant

    “I’m not sure that “bosis” is such a problem because I think you can just make sure that there is a bentcher on the table or that it is set before candle-lighting (making sure that there is at least one non-disposable item).”

    You can put a bentcher (or a challah as some have the minhag), but if you always put the candles on the table sooner or later you will forget and that will be the week that you want to move the table.

    #1413389
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LU:
    “but rather, to sheilahs that should have been asked, whether or not they were”

    Ubiquitin: “Though that isnt really the topic we were discussing.

    Again the question was “How often does an average frum family consult with their Rov for a shaila or other advice””

    LU: My original post was (sigh):

    (Ubiquitin): “(If you want my answer for the “average frum family” (ie excluding newcomers and excluding those who may be exceptionally learned) Id say range between twice a month and 4 times a year (other than taharas hamishpacha) Admittedly I have no idea how I came up with this number)”

    That seems to me like a very low estimate. Not necessarily in terms of how many sheilas people ask, but at least in terms of how many sheilas they actually have and would want to ask (but may not have anyone to ask).
    I think that the range amongst people I know is more like once every week to at least once a day.
    But most people I know don’t end up asking each time, either because they don’t have “A Rav” to ask all their sheilas to, or there is no one to ask because it’s Shabbos and they need an immediate answer, or it’s difficult/impossible to find someone to ask each time a sheilah arises and it’s the kind of thing that they can just avoid doing if they have no one to ask.”

    You are allowed to write about something that is not the exact same as the original question as long as you make it clear that you are doing so.

    (The problem is when you don’t make it clear that that is what you are doing, and/or you respond to other people’s posts who are referring to the original situation as though they are also referring to another situation, even after they made it quite clear that that was not what they were doing.)

    #1413419
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Iacisrmma, I just wanted to let you know that I saw your post, and I would like to respond, but haven’t had a chance to yet, and may not have a chance tonight.
    You have a good point, but I have a good response.
    I just don’t want you to think that I’m ignoring your comment – there have been many comments, so I didn’t have a chance to respond to all of them yet.

    #1413418
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Correction on last post: I meant “sheilahs that come up and could or should be asked.”

    and if you’re going to be nit-picky and tell me that wasn’t my exact loshon, my exact loshon in my original post was: “Not necessarily in terms of how many sheilas people ask, but at least in terms of how many sheilas they actually have and would want to ask”
    and the women in this case (who asked the sheilah to their husbands) would want to ask, and in fact, they did ask – they just chose the “wrong” person to ask, or maybe they had no choice.

    #1413415
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “So what happens if the same person is convinced that he knows what the MB is saying, and in fact, he doesn’t”
    “Im confused. then he DEFINITELY wont be asking his Rav a question. that is’ the guy you are arguing, asks questions?”

    Again, I’m talking about the questions people should be asking, as I’ve explained many, many times already.

    #1413412
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    but then again, some people think I’m male….. especially in the CR 🙂

    #1413399
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Benignuman: thanks for clarifying. That’s a good point, and probably true.

    #1413411
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU
    “You are allowed to write about something that is not the exact same as the original question as long as you make it clear that you are doing so.”

    Of course. Though you have to keep the discussions straight otherwise yo u confuse yourself

    Again the question was: “How often does an average frum family consult with their Rov for a shaila or other advice”

    I gave an answer ranging 4-24.
    you said “That seems to me like a very low estimate. …I think that the range amongst people I know is more like once every week to at least once a day.”

    In an effort to give examples of the above you mentioned all of the following :
    – Situations that are not the ” average frum family”
    – Situations were people dont realize they SHOULD ask a question
    – rare situations that dont come up regularly

    Of course all of those are fine topics for discussion but none of them relate to (with the possible exception of rare questions), “How often does an average frum family consult with their Rov for a shaila or other advice” yet all were in responses addressed to me.

    Now if you want to start a NEW discussion within this thread like
    How often does a aingle/divorced/widowed woman consult with their Rov for a shaila or other advice
    or
    How often does an average frum family NOT consult with their Rov for a shaila or other advice when they should be doing so.

    By all means discuss.
    I just missed the part where you made it clear that you were no longer discussing the original question.
    My apolagies for missing it.

    #1413434
    ubiquitin
    Participant


    “Again, I’m talking about the questions people should be asking, as I’ve explained many, many times already.”
    Lol!
    You said that in response to my comment. here it is again:

    Ubiquitin : ““The discussion is about “typical frum homes” I grant there are some who cannot read a Mishne Berura but It is fair to say the “Typical” product of a yeshiva system can.” [Note the discussion Im reffering to and the words I am quoting are Joseph’s second question]

    to which you replied “… So what happens if the same person is convinced that he knows what the MB is saying, and in fact, he doesn’t?”

    Certainly you can understand why I thought this was in reference to the topic I was discussing (and quoting) and not something else

    #1413397
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “sigh the question was about (and I quote ) “…an average frum family…”

    First of all, I find sighing to be rather arrogant and rude. There have been many times when I could have “sighed” at you, but chose not to. (the last post was only to make this point) .

    Second of all, apparently I understood the term “average Frum family” differently than you did. I think that I had thought he meant the average of all Frum families. Meaning the average amount of questions asked by Frum families.

    And honestly, it’s a bit ridiculous and rude to put so much emphasis on defining “average Frum family” a particular way. Maybe my idea of the average Frum family is different than yours is. Of the 7 households in my immediate family, 4 of them consist of only females.

    I also am not sure that it made sense for you to marginalize “newcomers”. I am not sure if you meant people who became Frum less than a year or two ago, or if you were referring to all baalei teshuvas, but there are so many baalei teshuvas that I’m not sure if it makes sense to put them in a separate category, especially since bt’s often end up learning more halacha than ffb’s, and often have more questions precisely because they are more aware of the halachic issues that come up on a regular basis, as opposed to ffb’s who are more likely to take things for granted and just assume that since they’ve been doing something the same way for so many years, it must be okay, or to be reluctant to ask sheilas for the reasons that Benignuman and I gave above.

    As I think was already pointed out, the whole idea of talking about an “average Frum family” makes no sense, which is probably the reason I didn’t interpret it the way you did.

    #1413642
    baishatalmuder
    Participant

    There is a major difference between the way that a rov answers a sheila, as opposed to the actual halacha is. Now for the great majority of people who do not know how to properly look into the matter and find what the poskim actually say, they have no choice but to ask a rov. However those people who know how to learn will find many times that something is clearly mutar, when no posek will officially be matir that thing. The main reason for this is that a rov must take into account 2 things. The 1st is that people who do not understand learning will learn to be matir other things based on the heter the rov gave him. The 2nd is that there is a major difference between having a single person doing something in private and thousands of people doing the same thing in public.
    A clear example of this is the Igrohs Moshe who writes a very long teshuva in which he says that on shabbos its mutar to open cans and bottle caps in which the bottom ring of the cap is separated from the cap. Howeverr he writes that this heter should not be told to the general public because they will come to be matir things that are assur based on their not understanding the reasoning of that heter.

    #1413631
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I would ask a posek who wasn’t my rav.”

    I suppose it all depends on what someone wants from a Rav. If they want an answer machine that can provide answers not available via google, I can hear taking such an approach. Personally, our Rav is more than an answer machine, through our interactions with him he helps us grow in our avodas hashem.

    #1413640
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU
    “First of all, I find sighing to be rather arrogant and rude.”
    I find your comments to be arrogant and rude. You often misinterpret posts and when this is pointed out to you instead of saying, “sorry I misunderstood” you move the goal posts and reinterpret what you said, what you were replying to etc. This thread is yet another example.
    You say you defined “average” differently. In several of my orginal comments I defined it as “typical” in another . In my very first comment I said “ie excluding newcomers and excluding those who may be exceptionally learned” We werent talking about “an average of frum families” rather about “the Average family”

    “And honestly, it’s a bit ridiculous and rude to put so much emphasis on defining “average Frum family” a particular way. ”
    Nu nu Terms need to be defined in order to discuss them. I dont think it is rude, though it may be ridiculous since as I mentioned several times there is a lot of variability

    “I also am not sure that it made sense for you to marginalize “newcomers””

    I dont think saying they have more questions than the typical family is “marginalizing”

    “I am not sure if you meant people who became Frum less than a year or two ago, or if you were referring to all baalei teshuvas, but there are so many baalei teshuvas that I’m not sure if it makes sense to put them in a separate category,”
    Arent yo uputting them in a separate category too you differentiate between “BT’s” and “FFB’s” So for your purposes of distinction its fine, but not mine got it. Similar to when I sigh it is “rude and arrogant” but when you do it it is “proving a point”

    “As I think was already pointed out, the whole idea of talking about an “average Frum family” makes no sense”
    Thats fine. So say “I cant reply to the original question as it makes no sense, but if we look at all Jewish families some will have questions every day” dotn redefine terms and continue the conversation without telling anybody. Especialy it was pointe out several times that we arent talking about exceptional cases. for you to now say “Oh I ignored that caveat and just interpreted it the way I wanted to ” (not a verbatim quote) is a bit ridiculous and rude.

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